Talk:Traditional festival days of Wales

Calan Gaeaf

The link in the Calan Gaeaf section appears to be to something else entirely, so needs an update. In any case there should be much more to say here. Calan Gaeaf is related to a celtic fire festival. Most of the fire festivals are no longer retained in Wales, and there is no significant history of them, but this one persisted as mischief night (and other names) - although not just in Wales, but across the UK. The fire festival part also became confused with November 5th, bonfire night. Guy Fawkes was not burned at the stake, and the reason for the bonfires appears to be related to older fire festivals. However I don't have sources to hand, so won't update with the above as it will look like OR without some sourcing. However, when fixing the broken source, please consider finding something that says more than that this exists - there should be some scholarly treatment of the subject - certainly something that describes this as Celtic new year. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:41, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Possible rename or reorganisation?

I stumbled across this article and expected it to be about camping on the Gower/Llyn Peninsula, or second homes in Welsh beauty spots etc. The name of the article definitely doesn't match the content, the majority of which is about festivals and special days celebrated in Wales. I can't find an existing equivalent article about any other countries either. A rename may be difficult, to encompass all the topics, therefore maybe a split may be more appropriate. Sionk (talk) 16:19, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I think it needs a better focus. Splitting doesn't make sense when there is little here that is not already elsewhere. The list of bank holidays is a little pointless, and I am not sure why there is a national celebration section and a later historical one. For the most part, the only real national celebration in Wales that do not have equivalents in the rest of the UK would be St David's day and Santes Dwynwen's day. However there are some Welsh traditions that could get a mention - Calennig and the Mari Llwyd, sure - although they have articles. I have removed a bunch of modern druidic festivals because I am not aware of anyone who observes them, and they certainly did not belong under the heading "historic festivals". They were also unsourced. The term "holiday" is strictly correct, although we don't mention all the saints days. The question is what is this intended to be? Maybe "historical festivals of Wales" or "Festivals and holidays celebrated in Wales"... but again, watch out for scope creep. Glyndŵr day may be celebrated by some schools teaching history, and they are in Wales, but does this really qualify it for a mention? Maybe this should, in fact, be a list - in which case it needs inclusion criteria. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 17:23, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it's definitely not about holidays at all, far more about special days and festival days. Many of these events would be celebrated, though people wouldn't get time away from their work. I agree it would be sensible to remove the stuff that doesn't fit, or is covered elsewhere. Sionk (talk) 18:24, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

There is (newly-made) list of festivals in Wales for any content split of the festivals?

Obvs, "Public holidays in" is the more common title (and "National holidays" which redirect to PHs) on similar topics, but yeah, does not exactly apply to Wales. Parts could become a simple section on another more general article? No detail in this article that couldn't be elsewhere or on the linked articles.

If kept to be purely on the days (with festivals moved to linked above), the only other names I can think of is "cultural holidays"? "observances"? or "annual events"? (based on various categories). But "holidays" is correct even if it is very general, but the article's scope is indeed unclear. DankJae 21:02, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Also, if it is the very literal meaning of holidays, then it is astounding that Christmas and Easter are absent. I don't understand what this page is attempting to tell the reader. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:45, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I've boldly changed the page name to "Public holidays and celebration days in Wales" and open to discuss tweaking this. Titus Gold (talk) 01:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

And I have moved it back. There is a discussion here and that title was not one that has even been considered, and you ignored the suggestions that are here. Please avoid bold page moves that are likely to be controversial as these are major changes and should be discussed first. They also leave pointless redirects lying around.

Now to what is wrong with the new title: Is the page about public holidays? Or is it about celebration days? Those are different things and make the page indiscriminate. And what even is a celebration day? We discussed festival days, but celebration days seems to be wider, to the point it could capture ALL days.

I think we need to know what the page focus is, and only then will the correct title suggest itself. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Something like Celebration days in Wales would be a more sensible title. We don't need a list of bank holidays on Wikipedia, these can simply be removed. If a celebration day coincides with a bank holiday, then that can be mentioned in the description. Sionk (talk) 11:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree completely that the bank holidays can just go. I think "celebration" is too broad. An example: Neurodiversity celebration week is coming up in March [1]. It is UK wide so Wales is included. Does that get mentioned? Would it get mentioned if it were a day and not a week? What are the inclusion criteria here? Holidays could be specifically holy days (yet this page is not that, so maybe not). Festival is narrower than celebration but still a little fuzzy. I think the intent of this page is to describe traditional Welsh festivals, is it not? Calennig, St David's Day, Hen Galan - that kind of thing. Can we have a title like Traditional Festivals of Wales? Or is that now too narrow? I would argue that probably excludes modern celebrations like Glyndŵr Day (unless there is any evidence it was historically celebrated). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Traditional festival days of Wales? It seemed to be the original intention of the article. I'll keep an open mind about when something becomes 'traditional', after all, Owain Glyndŵr Day has allegedly been going for a couple of decades :) Sionk (talk) 13:21, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I am happy with that one. Let's see what others say. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:55, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Not opposed to either of these. "National celebration days in/of Wales", "Traditional celebration days in/of Wales" or "Traditional festivals in/of Wales" could all be options Titus Gold (talk) 22:08, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Don’t mind Traditional festival days of Wales. Bank holidays would have to go though. DankJae 01:30, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I've done the deed and moved the page to the new title, which seems to have gained some consensus. Sionk (talk) 21:48, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Back onto reorganisation, would it be better to format the celebrations section as a table? I believe many of the public holiday articles set it out that way, although yes this is not on public holidays. The subheadings are quite excessive per MOS:OVERSECTION for a mere sentence or short paragraph as of now, and the subheadings are quite overly detailed. DankJae 18:43, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I think a table would be preferable to the current structure - for instance, the current entry for Boxing Day has no more information om the paragraph than it does in the heading (date/name/alternative name/name in Welsh). Llwyld (talk) 22:25, 26 January 2023 (UTC)