Talk:Symphony No. 8 (Dvořák)

Trombones in the opening

I have just undid the edit by Vorodin mainly because I don't think trombones are playing the opening "theme", instead, they are just playing the harmony with the "theme". I am uncertain to this but I still undid Vorodin's edit. (Addaick (talk) 13:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC))

Consequently?

We read: "Simrock wanted to publish the movement titles and the composer's name in German, which Dvořák refused as a "proud Bohemian". The symphony is consequently occasionally known as the "English" symphony. [1]". The latter sentence was recently added, with a bare url (reference ?) in the text. I don't read Slovak. Smerus, do you? I understand that in the program, the symphony has a nickname "Anglická". I don't see that it means it would ever be nicknamed "English" in other languages, and I don't see how it would be a consequence of the composer refusing German titles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:10, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I've never seen it referred to as the 'English' symphony nor can I find any English-language reference suggesting this. The Slovak reference simply says it is sometime called 'English' because it was published by Novello, and doesn't mention any argument with Simrock. There is no suggestion in this reference that it is known as the 'English' symphony outside Slovakia (and presumably maybe Czechia). So I would remove this reference. I think the stuff about an argument with Simrock needs a better reference than a concert programme, by the way.--Smerus (talk) 16:13, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

You could try googling, in which case you'd find e.g. [2]. Henry^Flower 07:21, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure I would call that source reliable, but in any event it says the symphony "was for a time known as the 'English'". This seems to suggest that it no longer is so-called, though the time-frame is vague.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:31, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Further refs: [3], [4]. I'd have no objection to "has been known as", if that would make you happy. Henry^Flower 10:20, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Kurt Honolka's book is a much more respectable source than the others offered so far, but even he says "It is occasionally called ...". I am beginning to notice a sameness in the wording of most of these sources, including the one originally offered, which in Slovak reads "býva tiež označovaná ako„Anglická“." The word býva is slightly ambiguous, but in the context is probably intended to mean "formerly", hence "formerly also referred to as 'English'". If (as seems likely) all of these programme notes are actually quoting from Honolka, then any citation should probably be credited to him. Since his book was originally published in German (1974), then the German original at least ought to be consulted, since it may reveal nuances not evident in the English and Slovak translations. Smerus's point is also worth considering: was this nickname only formerly used in the Czech- and Slovak-speaking worlds? It is notable that Michael Steinberg (The Symphony: A Listener's Guide, pp. 144ff) devotes considerable space to the Simrock/Novello business, but never once mentions this alleged nickname. Indeed a phrase like "has been known as" or "was once sometimes known as" would be necessary, but equally the question "where?" needs to be answered.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:58, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, both, but I still don't how the refusal of German titles makes it "English", "consequently". The consequence needs an explanation, I think. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:25, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Good point, Gerda. I hope I have now cleared up the chain of logic. It is actually absurd that Novello's agreement to use Czech forms (instead of German ones) of titles and the composer's name should result in anyone calling the Symphony "English". I only wish that Honolka had picked up on this point to reinforce his contention that it would better be called the "Czech" symphony.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:36, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Looks fine to me now -- thanks, Jerome. Henry^Flower 08:56, 10 January 2017 (UTC)