Talk:Super Smash Bros./Archive 11

Roster confirmed by Official Nintendo Magazine

According to the Official Nintendo Magazine, Luigi, ROB, Falco, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Toon Link and Jigglypuff are all in Brawl, so can someone add this to the roster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Addit (talk • contribs) 11:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we need an admn. to put these characters on the roster because they were confirmed in a NIntendo website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.102.73 (talk) 12:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I think this makes it official. All we need is an admin and we're set. deecee (talk) 12:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Ya right, I'm sure some stuck-up individual is going to say "Nintendo Power is not a reliable source" :P Duhman0009 (talk) 13:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Nintendo Power is a reliable source; "Official Nintendo Magazine", despite the official sounding name, is not a Nintendo website. They lost their license in 2005, and their website originally forked from CVG, later even reverting back to their style. I'm not convinced they're any more reliable than CVG, who we already tossed out the window. No go. Coreycubed (talk) 14:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Insisting on following guidelines and policies is to make sure the articles are accurate and to prevent them from becoming fanboy tabloids, it's not to be mean or hurt anyone's feelings. And with all the billions of photoshopped and otherwise fake images and clips out there, small wonder why administrators would want to proceed with caution. And no, I'm not an administrator, I gain nothing personally by defending them. I'm just pointing out reality. There is a ton of good evidence now, yes, but information was being added before that, based on flimsier evidence. All we ever had to do was be patient and follow guidelines, as this is an encyclopedia, not a rumor mill.

In any case yes, Nintendo Power is a reliable source (although that link isn't to NP), and so far I've seen enough evidence and actual gameplay footage to be convinced of all the above mentioned characters, as well as Game & Watch. However there are also some very convincing images of Wolf floating around that may or may not be fake. Sites like joystiq have begun taking them down until he is officially confirmed. So hold off on accepting that one when you encounter it.

Also what do people think about Toon Link vs. Young Link? Are they different enough to have separate listings? Or should they be combined with a footnote saying that Young Link is (more or less) cell-shaded in Brawl? I would like to see his move set before proceeding.VatoFirme (talk) 14:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Their movesets aren't going to be the same anyways, but the name may be changed to Young Link for the NA release. I know it's not the same situation as Purin, for example, but it's still an unknown factor. However we handle it now is fine though, whether as a footnote, another entry, or not at all until NA release. Coreycubed (talk) 14:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

They have the exact same moveset. Put under Young Link; footnote. Wikipedian06 (talk) 17:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Good job linking to a magazine who has publicly apologized for spreading Mario Kart rumors as true. They have no credibility.

Let me elaborate, they passed false information over Mario Kart Wii as facts, and they later apologized. They have a VERY bad track record of notorious lies and they also said Krystal was going to be in it:

Reader Adam let me know that the most recent issue of the Official Nintendo Magazine (UK) has a Brawl feature. In one portion they have a run down of all the characters that are making their first appearance in a Smash Bros. game. At the end of the article they have one spot with a question mark. We all know that another new character is on the way, but ONM seems to think Krystal is it. A snippet from their article below.

“Your guess is as good as ours, although we’ll point the finger at Krystal, Fox McCloud’s princess friend; £5 says we’re right.” --HeaveTheClay (talk) 15:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how the above quotation matters much. It says that they aren't sure, but they're taking an educated guess. It was a Star Fox character, but not the right one. They're the Official Nintendo Magazine of the UK. Stress on Official. If they say something, even if it's later found to be wrong, that's a good enough source. Mario Kart Wii was apologized about professionally, as all professional publications do. Even the New York Times prints corrections. --LordHuffnPuff (talk) 15:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I already said they're not official. They used to be, but not anymore; you can't count this as a first or second party source. Also, while Nintendo Power (official Nintendo publication) has issued corrections in the past, they are rarely due to using bad sources, but rather a mistranslation of a date or some other minor detail; not something of this magnitude. Oh, and Wolf confirmed as 35th and final character, All-Star mode opened after his unlock. (Not confirmed by Wikipedia's standards yet, of course.) Coreycubed (talk) 15:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but I was under the impression that was the homepage of the Official Nintendo Magazine, a publication which is still running and very much official. Am I in error?--LordHuffnPuff (talk) 15:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You are. Under their former name, Nintendo Official Magazine, they were indeed official. However, their contract was rewritten, the license lost, and renamed to Official Nintendo Magazine with new staff, a new direction and no official sanction from Nintendo. Coreycubed (talk) 15:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

In there reviews section it clearly states that 'We are 100% Offical and 100% Honest', and their name is Offical Nintendo Magazine, they would of been sued if they wasn't Offical. - Dancingcyberman —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dancingcyberman (talk • contribs) 17:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The are using Nintendo's logo, and trading as an official magazine for the company, shouldn't trading standards have steped in it indeed they aren't official?  Doktor  Wilhelm  15:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

<unindent>Of course, Wikipedia's own article on the subject fails to provide a proper source on the loss of ONM's license. If anyone could shed more light on that so I'm not discounting them without due reason, I'd appreciate it -- I don't have time right now to check. Coreycubed (talk) 15:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you provide a source for that statement? I have many issues of NOM and ONM, and there was nothing about losing a licence in any of my issues. The redesign happened around the same time as Nintendo Power went through a revamp of style, and ONM said that their redesign was to fit in with Nintendo's new "more mature" iamge. Furthermore, our own Wiki page says that the magazine is still official. Unless you can provide a source that proves that ONM is, despite their title, unofficial, it makes little to no sense not to accept them at their word.

EDIT: Blah multiple edits make my points moot. If this isn't settled by the time I get home, I'll look through my issues of ONM and see if there are anything in issues 1-2 or so.--LordHuffnPuff (talk) 15:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Official Nintendo Magazine is a reliable source, regardless of their mistakes. The fact that they got the license from Nintendo to publish it is enough for us. And they did not lose the license, Nintendo published the official magazine themselves, but stopped doing so and decided to licensee a third party, just like they are going to do in the US with Nintendo Power. Of course, some will now say Nintendo Power is not reliable because they are not Nintendo themselves anymore, but just tell them we don't care, they got the license and that is enough. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 16:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

As of approximately an hour ago, it is officially January 31st, the official release date of SSBB in Japan. Given that, shouldn't in-game footage, regardless of source, be considered a potential source now that we have physical copies of the game to back up the information? Cyberlink420 (talk) 16:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

100% agree. Coreycubed (talk) 16:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Yes. I don't think Nintendo also put a time (unless all shops there open at the same time without midnight parties). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 16:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

They can't specify a release time... Coreycubed (talk) 16:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The game's out. Viable source found. 86.43.221.146 (talk) 21:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's what I'm wondering now... WTF was the point of putting Wolf in when you can turn Fox into Wolf using the colour swap? 70.55.1.95 (talk) 17:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You can't, that was a 'shop. Coreycubed (talk) 17:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes you can, it was one of the colour changes shown on the Dojo. Are you actually trying to claim Nintendo made a 'shopped pic for an article on the official website?70.55.1.95 (talk) 17:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You're thinking of Dark Fox. Something completely different. Coreycubed (talk) 17:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to bring this to everyone's attention, the seperate all the seperate character pages of everyone apparently announced that we can't source yet except for Ganondorf have already have had their pages modified to state that they will appear in Brawl. -71.59.237.110 (talk) 17:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm monitoring most of those pages, working on it. Thanks though. Coreycubed (talk) 17:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

Per the game's release, requested edit as follows:

Characters are listed in alphabetical order by their name.

Fighter	SSB	Melee	Brawl	Series
Bowser	N	Y	Y	Mario
Captain Falcon	Y	Y	Y	F-Zero
Diddy Kong	N	N	Y	Donkey Kong
Donkey Kong	Y	Y	Y	Donkey Kong
Dr. Mario	N	Y	N	Mario
Falco	N	Y	Y	Star Fox
Fox	Y	Y	Y	Star Fox
Ganondorf	N	Y	Y	The Legend of Zelda
Ice Climbers	N	Y	Y	Ice Climber
Ike	N	N	Y	Fire Emblem
Jigglypuff	Y	Y	Y	Pokémon
King Dedede	N	N	Y	Kirby
Kirby	Y	Y	Y	Kirby
Link	Y	Y	Y	The Legend of Zelda
Lucario	N	N	Y	Pokémon
Lucas	N	N	Y	EarthBound
Luigi	Y	Y	Y	Mario
Mario	Y	Y	Y	Mario
Marth	N	Y	Y	Fire Emblem
Meta Knight	N	N	Y	Kirby
Mewtwo	N	Y	N	Pokémon
Mr. Game & Watch	N	Y	Y	Game & Watch
Ness	Y	Y	Y	EarthBound
Peach	N	Y	Y	Mario
Pichu	N	Y	N	Pokémon
Pikachu	Y	Y	Y	Pokémon
Pikmin & Olimar	N	N	Y	Pikmin
Pit	N	N	Y	Kid Icarus
R.O.B.	N	N	Y	Nintendo (accessories)
Pokémon Trainer	N	N	Y1	Pokémon
Roy	N	Y	N	Fire Emblem
Samus	Y	Y	Y	Metroid
Sheik2	N	Y	Y	The Legend of Zelda
Snake	N	N	Y	Metal Gear
Sonic	N	N	Y	Sonic the Hedgehog
Wario	N	N	Y	Wario
Wolf	N	N	Y	Star Fox
Yoshi	Y	Y	Y	Yoshi
Young Link	N	Y	Y3	The Legend of Zelda
Zelda	N	Y	Y	The Legend of Zelda
Zero Suit Samus	N	N	Y4	Metroid

Notes:

^1 In Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Pokémon Trainer stays in the background while the player takes direct control of Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard. The set is listed under the name "Pokémon Trainer".

^2 In Super Smash Bros. Melee and Brawl, Sheik is not a standalone character but a transformation of Princess Zelda.

^3 The Japanese-localized version of Super Smash Bros. Brawl lists Young Link's name as "Toon Link," reflecting his new character design, which is based on Link's cartoon-like appearance in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker and its sequel, The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass.

^4 In Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Samus Aran can become Zero Suit Samus when her armor is destroyed, which occurs after performing a Final Smash. She will regain the armor if she performs another Final Smash.

Thank you. Coreycubed (talk) 17:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I just found a link to http://gonintendo.com/?p=34396 on Mr. Game and Watch's page is there anyway we can use that? -71.59.237.110 (talk) 17:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

GoNintendo's a blog; but the game is out, it serves as its own source. Coreycubed (talk) 17:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest that we don't use any 'X's in the table for Brawl characters as of yet. There's no definite proof that Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, Roy, and Pichu will not be in the game, although I personally hope they won't be. I'd suggest waiting until the game has been out for more than a couple of days before we can confirm that anyone is not in the game. Any objections? oobug^talk/_contrib 17:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this. Much like the original Luigi/Jigglypuff deal, it's something we put heavy assurance in outside of Wikipedia but isn't confirmed, and thus needs to remain as it was for the time being. Arrowned (talk) 17:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, with only one caveat; after Wolf's unlocked, All-Star mode opens. I don't have the link handy but I think I saw something similar to Melee's "you have unlocked all the characters!" screen. I'll see if I can track that down. Coreycubed (talk) 17:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

And at any rate those four could just be put back with ?, with the ? mark disclaimer readded to the top. Coreycubed (talk) 17:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

@Coreycubed: Interesting! I'd like to see that screen. Additionally, I forgot a couple of other things that I intended to mention.What happened to the footnote about Shiek being a transformation of Zelda? That's still a relevant point. Also, what should we do about Young Link? Since the game has not yet been released in the North American market, and since Toon Link hasn't yet been revealed on the DOJO!!, are we really safe to assume that Toon Link is not just the Japanese placeholder name for Young Link? Or, would it be better to assume that Young Link and Toon Link are separate characters? oobug^talk/_contrib 17:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The "all characters obtained" screen that Coreycubed was talking about is right here.[1]--LordHuffnPuff (talk) 18:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I forgot that it was going to be in Japanese. Can anyone here translate that screen? It may very well just congratulate the user for completing All Star mode. oobug^talk/_contrib 18:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Updated table as per suggestions and agreement towards those suggestions. I'm still not sure what we should do about Toon/Young Link, however. oobug^talk/_contrib 18:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Oobug regarding updated table. It's far too much of a stretch to say they're out. As for Toon / Young Link, there's no "right" answer. Anything we come up with should be OK as long as it's not original research. Coreycubed (talk) 19:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, Pichu still had an X, I changed it to ?. One more thing -- Sheik's selectable from the start of a match in Brawl. Even though they share an icon on the select screen, per today's update either one can be chosen (and of course, A made her playable in Melee). That's why I took off the note, but I'd like a second opinion on that. Coreycubed (talk) 19:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

While either Zelda or Sheik may be selected at the character selection screen, neither of them is a standalone character. What if we put the reference on the rows for both Sheik and Zelda, mentioning that the two characters are transformations of each other? oobug^talk/_contrib 19:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Note - I fixed the spelling of the word standalone on the Zelda/Sheik reference oobug^talk/_contrib 19:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

If we know those characters in the chart above are confirmed, why aren't they in the article itself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.161.227 (talk) 19:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Because the article is fully protected, and the whole point of that giant orange box above is to get an administrator to make the edits to the article we need done. Arrowned (talk) 19:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

No no no and EXTRA no on Toon Link and Young Link being separate on that chart. That is the Japanese name, just like KOOPA----BOWSER. Confirm it under Young Link or wait for the English translation. There is absolutely no difference between Young Link and Toon Link ASIDE FROM character designs. Just like Link is modeled after the TP version of Link, this is the case with Young Link and Toon Link. They are either put together on the chart until the english translation arrives. --HeaveTheClay (talk) 19:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I believe they are different. Toon Link doesn't use Fire Arrows, IIRC. Also, why are several characters still represented with question marks? We know that the current roster is the final one because this screen appears, which (according to multiple interpretations) is translated as ""Every character has become available for use! The real battle has begun!" Therefore, I think the "unconfirmed" characters should be changed to X's in order to maintain accuracy. Cyberlink420 (talk) 20:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

If that indeed says everything is unlocked then they should be changed to X. And you're not getting it. This model changed, Link's boomerang is also different. It does not justify being a standalone character when he's a redesigned Young Link. --HeaveTheClay (talk) 20:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree with HeaveTheClay and stated on this TP earlier this week that the only real difference between Toon Link and Young Link is art style (the former being WW/PH and the latter being OoT/MM). Fire Bow or not, they're essentially six of one and a half-dozen of the same. Further, Toon Link *is* a young Link, or at least younger than his TP iteration.

I'm not going to do the edit in part because my abilities with tables aren't that good when it comes to Wiki-markup. Although I must admit, this whole argument of confirmed/unconfirmed and Toon/Young is kinda like MONGO (talk · contribs) letting a Wikipedia Review mention slide without going rabid, given how the attitude on this talk page has been recently (no offense to MONGO intended). -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 20:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Although I'll admit I'm being nitpicky, can we get a link to the "Every character has become available for use" translation? I'd like to confirm that no other characters are going to pop up before definitively marking X's on the yet-unconfirmed Melee characters. Also, I personally agree with HeaveTheClay's view on Young/Toon Link; though we'll have to wait for the North American release to know for sure. My only reason for being so nitpicky is because the article is currently fully-protected, and should probably stay that way until all the controversy dies down, so we've basically got one chance to get it right! oobug^talk/_contrib 20:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Good ol' MONGO :) Jéské, if you want me to do the coding on the table for you, I can post it on a sandbox if you like. Coreycubed (talk) 20:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh and for the record I agree with the Toon Link = Young Link thing. I don't remember why I added it to the table. Coreycubed (talk) 20:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

But Toon Link and Young Link are two separate characters. - Addit (talk) 20:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

About 'Toon/Young Link, in the table it doesn't say that either are in Brawl. May I suggest putting a Y next to Young Link, but with a footnote saying that he is called 'Toon Link in Brawl? Epass (talk) 20:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Is the table at the top legitimate, and if so, can you guys post it on the article itself?

We can't, we need an admin to do it. - Addit (talk) 20:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Which is why the {{editprotected}} tag is on the table. It is accurate though, even with the Toon Link bit; we're just trying to be precise. Also, there's no evidence that the name Toon Link will be used in the NA localization, similar to Koopa, Ice Climber, and Purin. Coreycubed (talk) 21:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, Didn't think of that. - Addit (talk) 21:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the fact that 'Toon Link may have a different name. But I still think that a footnote would work. Maybe it could say that he is called 'Toon Link in the Japanese version of Brawl, and it could be updated after it is released in North America. Epass (talk) 21:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

When do you think you guys will get permission from the adminnistrator to unlock the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.161.227 (talk) 21:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

If you ask me, Toon Link is Young Link, but with a different style and name. They're pretty much the same character and have a similar moveset. I say tick Young Link as being in Brawl, but add the footnote saying he's called Toon Link in Brawl, rather than Young Link. Besides, Young Link being replaced by a character who would be pretty much identical to himself doesn't exactly say "Young Link isn't in Brawl". Toon Link is just a name given so people who don't know Zelda won't go "WTF why does Young Link look so weird?" When they're pretty much the same character if you ask me. Toon Link replaces Young Link. I say more like they change his look and give him a name that makes him stand out. SuperLink9 (talk)

Here's what I propose:

Although I think the usage of ? is more appropriate than the usage of N, let's X out the Melee characters whose existence in Brawl has not been confirmed in any way: Mewtwo, Pichu, Roy, and Dr. Mario. Let's keep the Sheik footnote where it is right now, since in the Legend of Zelda series, Sheik is, in fact, a transformation of Zelda. Then, let's check that Young Link appears in Brawl, and, in the effort of avoiding vandalism, make a footnote that states that, in the Japanese-localized version, Young Link is referred to as Toon Link. Once either the DOJO!! confirms Young Link or the North American version of SSBB comes out, we can change the table to include Toon Link if necessary. Any disagreements? oobug^talk/_contrib 21:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I approve. Wikipedian06 (talk) 21:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I still think Toon Link = Young Link, but I guess we can come to that when it comes to that. They are essentially the same character. SuperLink9 (talk) 21:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

To clarify: my intention is to check Young Link, and just make a footnote about the "Toon Link" name. I agree that they are essentially the same character. oobug^talk/_contrib 21:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Then I agree. However, what if he is called Toon Link is the localised version too? Because even in this case he is still virtually Young Link, just under a different name in Brawl. SuperLink9 (talk) 22:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

If he is, then we can modify the table to reflect this information once it's been revealed. The page isn't going to be protected forever, after all! (hopefully) oobug^talk/_contrib 22:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Then I suggest this - The table should be updated with a Y for Young Link in Brawl for now, but a footnote should be included saying that as far as we know, he is named Toon Link in the Japanese version of Brawl. Then if he is named Toon Link in the localised versions too, the Y should remain on Young Link, except change to footnote to say simply "In Super Smash Bros Brawl, Young Link takes on his appearance from Wind Waker and is named "Toon Link".SuperLink9 (talk) 22:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree. Should I holler for an admin? Coreycubed (talk) 22:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, please, it'd be great to finally finish the Brawl roster! SuperLink9 (talk) 22:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I feel that Young Link and Toon Link should not be counted as the same character simply because of their names. Saying they're basically the same because their movesets are similar isn't quite the best argument. By that logic, we should call Lucario "Mewtwo" or Wolf and Falco "Fox #2 and #3". Keep in mind that Young Link wasn't called Toon Link in the Japanese version of Melee. Only if he is called Young Link in the English speaking versions should they be categorized as the same person.Satoryu (talk) 22:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. In Japanese, the names are unique from each other. In fact, the Nintendopower.co.uk page linked higher up calls him "Wind Waker Link" and not "Young Link" which in Japanese is Kodomo Link (こどもリンク, Kodomo Rinku) which is different than "Toon Link" (トゥーンリンク, Tūn Rinku). I'd be willing to impliment the table above, but to make sure that the Pinkmin note is kept as is the separation of Toon and Young Links.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Lucario / Mewtwo? That's a big stretch. Link is Link is Link. It's just an art change. Also, Toon refers to his appearance, not his age. Also, it's a stretch to say that any of the characters is the same between games by that logic, and you'd be mad to start to try to figure out SSB / Nintendoverse continuity... Coreycubed (talk) 22:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we get the table updated and worry about specifics later? Either the North American release or the DOJO!! will reveal Young/Toon Link's North American name, at which point we'll be able to clearly define which name to use. Right now, all of this debate is, and has been, very fruitless. oobug^talk/_contrib 22:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The way I see it, Toon Link is just Young Link with another name and art style! Think of it this way - If Link was renamed "Adult Link" in Brawl, and given his TP look, would that certify him as a seperate character from the "Link" characters in both previous games?SuperLink9 (talk) 22:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to comment on a hypothetical situation that is already proven untrue. "Link is Link is Link". By that logic, Toon Link, Young Link, and Adult Link should all just be named Link, right? Of course not, that's not how they're named. It doesn't matter what the name implies. If the name is different, the character is different.
If the English version names him Young Link, there should either be two Young Links (as ridiculous as it sounds) or a footnote showing that they're seperate characters in Japan.Satoryu (talk) 22:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I've implimented the table as listed above, although changing the X's under the Brawl column to ?, replacing the footnote for Pikmin, designating The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker for Toon Link's game, and adding minor details that were shown in the last update in the footnotes (choosing whether or not to start with Sheik or which Pokémon).—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Well it is'nt how you see it is it? It is how Nintendo sees it, if they blanteted out say, "toon link is the same as young link" then we would check young/toon link, but as we have always done in these times, we go with offical word young ang toon link seprate.→041744 22:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the table as per the discussed changes. I ask that you please do not revert, but instead review the changes made and give your opinion. Let's get 'er done! oobug^talk/_contrib 22:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It is just a graphical update. Young Link is 'Toon Link. It is just that the young link in PH and WW is quite different from the one in OoT, and he has a more cartoon appearance, hence the name 'Toon Link. Let's just add it now, and maybe when he is released on the DOJO!! this dispute will be settled. Epass (talk) 22:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The thing is, he probably will be named Toon Link in the localised version, but this doesn't change the "fact" that they are the same character, and if you ask me it would look strange if the table features Young Link AND Toon Link as 2 seperate characters, with a footnote at Toon Link saying "He's exactly the same as Young Link, but has a different name, go figure". If they're really going to be seperated, there should at least be a Toon Link footnote mentioning that he is the same as Young Link, or that he essentially "replaces" Young Link. Actually, forget all that, if he appears on the Dojo and he's classed "Veteran" even though his name is different, that pretty much decides that he is "Young Link" anyway. SuperLink9 (talk) 22:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I have made this change. I have left Toon and Young Links separate because based on all sources, those are the names that we are given ("Wind Waker Link" is the only English language name we have seen for him). Until a regionalized name is given as "Young Link," we should avoid original research and synthesis and assumptions that the characters are one in the same. It is very likely that Toon Link will have abilities unique to The Wind Waker and The Phantom Hourglass, and would be unique from what we know as "Young Link."—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Falco and Ganondorf are known to have moves unique from their old selves too, but they are still the same characters. Like I said before, if/when Toon Link is put on the Dojo, we will know if he is a veteran or a newcomer. Would having a footnote anyway (saying he could possibly be Young Link) be a good idea?SuperLink9 (talk) 23:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Still, the issue of the name comes up. In Japanese, it is "Toon Link" and the only English language source calls him "Wind Waker Link." None of which is the same as the Japanese or English names for Young Link. If it would suffice, a footnote could be placed instead of the question mark, stating "In Super Smash Bros. Brawl, a similar character named Toon/Wind Waker Link is a playable character." Is that agreeable?—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 23:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess so, it probably will be a few months until we get him on the Dojo, so we won't be able to find out if he's classed as a newcomer or a veteran for some time yet. Also, I would put N next to the other four characters, since a screenshot revealed at the same time as Wolf apparantly said all the characters had been unlocked. I don't know any official sources though, does anyone else? SuperLink9 (talk) 23:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC) Never mind, just saw it was changed. SuperLink9 (talk) 23:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The citation attributed to Nintendo Power incorrect. The magazine is actually Official Nintendo Magazine, an entirely separate publication. Also, I'm not convinced that the citation is even relevant. Remember that Super Smash Bros. Brawl is not being developed by Nintendo, but by a Second Party. OFM is free to use whatever moniker they want for a character in Brawl; it doesn't make it the character's official name. Also, I don't think the footnote about Captain Olimar and his use of Pikmin is relevant to the article. Wikipedia is not a strategy guide, and the fact that Olimar can't perform certain attacks without his Pikmin is not important to the article; neither is the fact that Popo of the Ice Climbers can't perform certain attacks (Up + B) without Nana in Melee. oobug^talk/_contrib 00:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree to that proposal. I think that because it is not definitely the full roster, that the characters from melee should not be "X"ed out. who knows. all of those characters could later be unlocked by doing something that that guy didn't.Igglybuff63 (talk) 12:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

It's definitely the full roster, there are screenshots of it, and a screenshot that apparantly translated as "all the characters have been unlocked, now the real fight begins" or something along those lines. SuperLink9 (talk) 14:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Translation of 大乱闘

The original translation of the term 大乱闘 was done by Urutapu, he translated it to "Great Battle". This was then changed to "Great Fray" by Apostrophe who probably got it from the Animelab Dictionary. I didn't see any other dictionary where the term is translated as "fray".

I tackle this old translation as I think "Great Melee" is a much more accurate description of the term. 乱闘 describes a scuffle rather than a full-blown combat, for example happening when a referee decision at a sports match is disputed by the players. The Japanese Wikipedia page of 乱闘 also says so. Prime Blue (talk) 20:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your boldness! Question though, are you sure that's the only source for fray's translation? It's not a bad word; it doesn't imply war or combat in an epic way, it's more of a chaotic type of battle -- which describes Smash well; so do the words Melee and Brawl, for that matter. Coreycubed (talk) 20:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not the only source for the "fray"-translation. One of the earliest translations of the term related to the Smash Bros. series might be here, by Stutz. Most of the sources from other sites probably just adopted the "fray" after it emerged on Wikipedia. I used two of the more accurate German online dictionaries to verify the translation. Both list "melee" as the most accurate translation. I also think that "melee" is a mild form of battle, while a "brawl" or "fray" is more rough. But I'm not a native English speaker, so feel free to correct me on that. Prime Blue (talk) 21:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

This discussion should probably be had on the Super Smash Bros. Brawl talk page, as the translation of SSBB's Japanese title has little to do with the entirety of the Super Smash Bros. series. oobug^talk/_contrib 21:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The whole series is called like that. Prime Blue (talk) 21:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah. I don't think my Japanese font is working, so I couldn't tell. Carry on – don't mind me. oobug^talk/_contrib 21:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

And he's gone and updated all the Nihongo-title templates with the new translation; if his mastery of Japanese is anything like his English (and he's not even a native speaker!), I trust the change. Coreycubed (talk) 22:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Technically, that means "Big Battle"...though I think "Great Battle" sounds better. --haha169 (talk) 00:55, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I've seen it translated as both "great" and "big" in various locations; I'm specifically thinking of Dai Sentai Goggle V and Gosei Sentai Dairanger, though the latter admittedly uses ダイ instead of 大. Arrowned (talk) 01:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah...the first one would mean great and the second one big. --haha169 (talk) 04:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The first one isn't exactly a legit translatable word actually; the series it came from used it more like a proper noun. Arrowned (talk) 05:02, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

大 means both. Pick one that looks best.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 05:14, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest to keep "great" as people are more familiar with it and for the fact that it sounds better (at least to a few people participating in this discussion). There's another translation of the term by separating it into 大乱 and 闘, that way it means "Great Rebellion Battle" or "Civil War Battle". Nintendo probably choose the title intentionally as it's a play on words alluding to both aspects of Smash Bros.: Otherwise - mostly - peaceful characters getting into a fight and engaging in close combat. Prime Blue (talk) 07:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion for character table

I think there should be a footnote (or color code, or something to that effect) on the character table that denotes that the character was an unlockable and in which game. I've come to this page looking for that information a few times in the past to refresh my memory, and it's never been on there. It doesn't need to list how each character is unlocked or anything, just something simple. I'd add it myself, but the page is protected. -IG-64 (talk) 07:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

We've actually been discussing that recently (the discussion was archived), and we ended up coming to no real consensus. On the one hand, Wikipedia is not a game guide. On the other hand, assuming an argument could be made that such an addition wasn't really game guide-ish material, nobody could figure out a way to display such information in the table effectively. Arrowned (talk) 07:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I tried skimming the archives, but I didn't see this being discussed anywhere. I'll try to look harder next time. But like I said, I have personally looked for this information before, and I think it's useful enough to be noted just as general information, especially since we're listing the characters in the first place. Since you're not listing how to unlock the characters, it doesn't really get into the "game guide" material. This way, for example, if someone couldn't remember whether or not Jigglypuff was an unlockable character in Melee, they could find that information on here. That sounds encyclopedic to me. As for how you would implement it, as a rough example:

Fighter	SSB	Melee	Brawl	Series
Captain Falcon	Y	Y	Y	F-Zero

Notes:

^1 In Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Pokémon Trainer stays in the background while the player takes direct control of Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard. The set is listed under the name "Pokémon Trainer".

^2 In Super Smash Bros. Melee and Brawl, Sheik is not a standalone character but a transformation of Princess Zelda.

^3 The Japanese-localized version of Super Smash Bros. Brawl lists Young Link's name as "Toon Link," reflecting his new character design, which is based on Link's cartoon-like appearance in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker and its sequel, The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass.

^4 In Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Samus Aran can become Zero Suit Samus when her armor is destroyed, which occurs after performing a Final Smash. She will regain the armor if she performs another Final Smash.

Gray cells denote an unlockable character.

Or something to that effect. -IG-64 (talk) 09:50, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I never really had a problem with saying characters were unlockable. The only thing I was unsure of was how to mark them in a way that didn't seem cluttered. Like using a padlock, for example. But I like your solution a lot. It doesn't clutter the table at all, and it's easy to read.Satoryu (talk) 17:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

If there are no further objections, I will go ahead and add this information to the table. -IG-64 (talk) 11:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't object; this looks like it'll work well. Obviously the note about what gray cells denote should go in the paragraph above the table. Arrowned (talk) 20:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I've changed it. Does it look alright? -IG-64 (talk) 23:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Why can't we put Toon Link together with Young Link?

The name of R.O.B is ROBOT in Japanese Brawl yet the admin who updated the list listed him as ROB, instead of the Japanese name. And that's the crux for Young Link and Toon Link. The name. I don't agree with the current solution. --HeaveTheClay (talk) 16:42, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Neither do I but Young Link isn't called Toon Link in Japan in Melee so there was arguing if Toon Link should just go under Young Link and be said to be a completely new model and a new name or as a completely new character, I believe was are waiting for Dojo to claim something like "Toon Link is Young Link" or list Toon Link under veterans. The Light6 (talk) 16:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Toon Link isin't Young Link! Young Link is just the younger version of regular Link, but Toon Link(or how he should be called Wind Waker Link)is from a totally different Legend of Zelda Universe! they're not the same at all! But one question, if time and time again it's been proven about all of the characters unlocked in the game, why does young link still have a question mark, he's not in the game!Onepiece226 (talk) 17:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Onepiece226

Well that's the point based off the graphics it is a completely new character however all the other characters get graphical changes too but it could be argued that Toon Link's (it is Toon instead of Wind Waker because it is more generic and that same Link appeared in two games) graphical change is more extreme and I guess the argument is Toon Link = Young Link when compared to Link in both Brawl and Melee, also I'm not sure about this but I heard Toon Link has the same moveset as Young Link. Either way sometime in the next two months (hopefully sooner then later) Dojo will give us the info to make a final decision. The Light6 (talk) 17:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Toon Link is a seperate character. In the Japanese version, Young Link's name was still Young Link. If you don't believe me, turn your Melee game to Japanese, as some of the characters names change (i.e.: Bowser's name becoming Koopa). There's a low chance that his name will be change, and to Young Link for that matter. Also, Toon Link and Young Link are from the same Universe. Toon Link's adventure just took place 100 years after Young Link's. --Ryu-chan (Talk | Contributions) 17:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC) Well I also feel that Nintendo basically packed this game with all of there stuff, and Toon Link is in a different universe. I've seen his stage too, you get to fight on some ship that he uses in Phantom Hourglass, so defenitly I think it's just a totally new Link. Two reason, one I just said, and two, I think that Nintendo knew that Pichu, was just a faster crappier verison of pikachu, Dr. Mario was just Mario in a doctors suit, and that Young Link was just a younger version of Link, so why even have him? And the only reason the called him Young link WAS because he was a younger Link, but Toon Link is not the same person, and everyone knows that!Onepiece226 (talk) 17:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Onepiece226

Are you not reading? Graphical upgrade just like Link in Brawl. It is based off the Twilight Princess model and his weapons and such are from that game, however he has the same moveset. There are videos of Toon Link and he has the boomerang, bomb, and bow/arrows. I can't even fathom your point about it being a different universe or your connection with other characters. Toon Link is a variation of Link but much faster from what we seen. He isn't unique as you make him to be. I'm also hearing multiple reports of Toon Link having the same Final Smash as Link (take it as a grain of salt).

Your first point is nullified due to the fact this is a cross over franchise. Does it matter which incarnation of Link they use so long as they have the same moveset? No, of course not. To remain consistent they may very well called Toon Link as Young(er) Link in the NA localization. We don't know for sure. I already explained that Toon Link is a clone so you have no basis for disproving the belief that Toon Link is the new incarnation of Young Link. --HeaveTheClay (talk) 17:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Young Link was from a different universe too! His stage was from Majora's Mask, which does not take place within the typical, LOZ universe land of Hyrule, but within Termina, which is basically an alternate universe version of Hyrule. In fact, Legend of Zelda canon basically states that all of the Link and Zelda characters from games that aren't obviously related are from different time periods. Since the Link in Brawl is modeled after the character's appearence in Twilight Princess, and the Link in Melee was modeled after the Link in Ocarina of Time, then by that logic the Link in Brawl is a totally new Link! Toon Link is a younger Link, because all iterations of Link are technically different characters. Twilight Princess even makes constant reference to a "Hero", whose tunic you receive in the game. The Tunic obviously belonged to a previous version of Link. And yes, HeaveTheClay, I've also seen the YouTube footage of Toon Link; his moveset appears to be Link's moveset — he just moves faster, much like Young Link did in Melee. The administrator who performed the update — no offense to him — didn't really take the discussion we'd been having about Toon/Young Link into consideration when he modified the table. The character table listed earlier on the page shows what the most acceptable solution (at the time) was: a footnote explaining that, at least in the Japanese version, Young Link is referred to as "Toon Link." Nevertheless, I don't really think that the difference is all that relevant until the DOJO!! releases localized North American information about Young/Toon Link, and we find out what his name will be in English versions of the game. oobug^talk/_contrib 17:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow totally forgot about Majora's Mask! Well anyway he still shouldn't be called Young Link. I mean look at it this way, Toon Link makes sense, I mean everything in that universe of LoZ is cartoony! plus we've never seen Toon Link as a adult so calling him Young Link I think would be kind of retarde and confuse some people who may play and not know. And we don't exactly know his move set, of course he's going to have a sword, crossbow, and bomerrang, which won't look like links because they'll look more cartoony, and most likely he'll have some kind of Windwaker of Phantom Hourglass weapons. He maybe named Young Link, i'm just saying since the only official name right now is Toon Link, we should keep it and also to keep it for confusion until he's officially released on DojoOnepiece226 (talk) 18:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Onepiece226

I honestly doubt they'd call him Young Link. For starters, in Melee, Link and Young Link were the same person. In Brawl, Link and Toon Link aren't. Twilight Princess Link comes from an alternate universe that was created when Ocarina of Time Link went back in time. Wind Waker Link was in the same universe as OoT Link, except his story/adventures takes place 100 years after. And as I said in my statement above, if you turn your Melee game into Japanese, it'll still say Young Link, kind of like how Bowsers name changes to Koopa or Jigglypuff's name changes to Purin. So his name will mostly likely remain Toon Link. If they do change it, I highly doubt that it will be Young Link. If they do change his name, then we'll change it on here. As for now, his name should stay the way it is. --Ryu-chan (Talk | Contributions) 19:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Well of course the japanese version would say Young Link. It wouldn't say Toon Link because that version of Young Link isn't a toon! he looks realistic. I can support the argument that in Melee Link is the Link in OOT and Young Link is the same Link only younger. However, I think, above all, Young Link and Toon Link should be placed under one character. There are two main reasons I think this and they are 1)Link in Brawl is based off of the most recent design of him. And that is from Twilight Princess. Now if you think about it, YOUNG Link's most recent appearance is in Phantom Hourglass, whose character design is cel-shaded, therefore, Young Link is influenced by the design of his most recent appearance, which makes him cartoony; Just like Link is influenced by the design of his most recent appearance in TP, making him more realistic. Does that logic make sense?Also, 2) Toon Link and Young Link have the same moveset. Sakurai obviously meant for Toon Link and Young Link to be the same character if he wanted them to play the same way, he just fused Young Link with the design of his most recent appearance (see reason 1). If anything, we should just put a footnote under Young Link and say that in the Japanese version he is known as Toon Link and it is unknown what his NA Name is. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 21:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

There is an easy way to settle all of this. Thanks to today's update, we know that the Dojo will have revealed pretty much everything within 2 months. There is a simple answer. If Toon Link is in the newcomers section, he should be seperated from Young Link. If he is a Veteran, he IS Young Link. The thing is, fans can speculated about it forever, but all we need is 1 piece of evidence from the game director to decide everything. For now, they are seperate, and Young Link has a footnote. This might change when Toon Link is put on the Dojo. SuperLink9 (talk) 22:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok well we already know that in Melee, the young Link was the younger version of the OoT Link, And that the Link in Brawl is based off of Twilight Princess, but the Link in Phantom Hourglass, IS NOT THE YOUNGER VERSION OF THE ONE IN TWILIGHT PRINCESS, plus how can you consider him a young Link? when he's never been older than the age he is in Windwaker and Phantom Hourglass? At least Young Link in Melee WAS the younger version, so therefor that's why he was Young Link!, And we havent seen all of his moveset! he's going to have a sword, crossbow, and bomerrang, Which evrey kind of Link has, which won't look like Twilight Princess Link's, because they'll look more cartoony, and most likely he'll have some kind of Windwaker of Phantom Hourglass weapons.Onepiece226 (talk) 00:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Onepiece226

Link is 10 in Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass, but in OoT he's 14/15. So he's even younger in WW than he is in OoT and MM. Besides, like I said, whe he comes onto the Dojo, we will KNOW. SuperLink9 (talk) 00:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

If having basically the same moves makes him the same character, doesn't that mean that in SSBM, Marth and Roy is one charachter? It doesn't really work that way. Roy and Marth are different in looks and name, and so is SSBM's young Link and SSBB's Toon Link. Thus you can call them different characters if you wish, but we'll have to wait for DOJO. Zeck (talk) 15:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Onepiece, I already mentioned that the Link in Melee was not the younger version of Link from Ocarina of Time, he was the Link from Majora's Mask, which took place in an entirely different timeline – presumably in an alternate universe. He was just a younger iteration of the oft-reincarnated character of Link, just as Toon Link is also a younger iteration of the character of Link. I agree with Zeck, we'll just leave it the way it is until the DOJO!! releases its information on Toon Link. If the DOJO!! calls him Young Link, then that's what we'll call him. If it lists him as a veteran character, then we'll put the entry under the existing Young Link entry. Otherwise, he'll stay as the separate entry "Toon Link." oobug^talk/_contrib 17:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Well you can't just say that Young Link and Toon Link DO have the same move sets, all we've seen are the normal attacks that anyone called Link would have, And yes SuperLink, we understand that we'll know when it's on Dojo, that dosen't mean we can't have a friendly conversation about it in the meantimeOnepiece226 (talk) 19:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Onepiece226

I love that you say Lucario is in (I know this is the wrong section) but where's his official confirmation? Not say there isn't proof but I thought we wern't trusting places Brawl central. BaconBoy914 (talk) 03:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The game is out (in Japan, at least). We need no more confirmation than the game itself. Not even DOJO!! is required to wait on. Arrowned (talk) 03:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

DOJO!! may not confirm anything. Ness appeared in the Secret Fighters section, not the Veterans. When Toon Link is confirmed, it is likely that he will appear there as well. Genosoa (talk) 06:24, 2 February 2008 (UTC) 204.210.104.19 (talk) 05:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes Lucario is offically in, everyone has seen photos, and even more than just photos, there's complete videos!, And Genosoa is right, whenever Toon Link, or Windwaker Link(whatever you wanna call him), is released, we'll never know what he'll be under. So it's pretty safe to say that unless is name comes out to be "Young Link", we'll probley end up calling him Toon Link.Onepiece226 (talk) 08:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)Onepiece226

Actually depending on what it says on Dojo we could use Dojo to help us.

Dojo: As this is Ness’s third appearance in a Smash game, I imagine he’s quite the veteran fighter at this point.

See we sould used the comments on Toon Link's page, the only problem could be is we end up with something that looks like what happened when Lucas was revealed. The Light6 (talk) 09:13, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

There are two different types of Links: young and adult. Some Links are the same compared to each other (e.g. The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass versions), while others are completely different. In the first Zelda title for the NES / FDS, Link was young during that time, according to one of Young Link's Trophies. In the GBA version of A Link to the Past, Link's voice samples were taken from the OoT and MM Young Link, which could mean that ALttP Link is young. In the instruction booklet for Link's Awakening/DX, there were some ALttP artworks used, which could mean that Link in that Game Boy title is young. In the Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons, the Link sprites were taken from Link's Awakening, while the official artworks for the Oracles appear to be altered versions of the ALttP and LA versions. The Adventure of Link version's design looks like the predecessor of ALttP version's. However, they both look like teenagers, which is probably why the DiC Entertainment version, the Captain N version and the Wand of Gamelon / Faces of Evil versions sound like teenagers. OoT adult Link and TP adult Link are the only adult Links in the Zelda universe, while the others appear to be young in age. Parrothead1983 (talk) 12:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Captain Olimar footnote

I don't think the footnote about Captain Olimar and his use of Pikmin is relevant to the article. Wikipedia is not a strategy guide, and the fact that Olimar can't perform certain attacks without his Pikmin is not important to the article, just like the fact that Popo of the Ice Climbers can't perform certain attacks (Up + B) without Nana in Melee. I'd like to get rid of it; does everyone concur? oobug^talk/_contrib 18:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Well one way of supporting your agruement is that this doesn't revolve around a transformation system that leads to a different moveset like the case with Zelda, Samus, or Pokemon Trainer -71.59.237.110 (talk) 18:15, 31 January 2008 (UTC).

Exactly. I'm willing to put the citation inside the table, alongside the "Pikmin & Olimar" character listing, but the footnote is unnecessary and cluttersome. oobug^talk/_contrib 18:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

On the subject of footnote quality gamefaqs:http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/wii/code/928518.html currently has a code that allows for the player to have Zero Suit Samus start off the battle instead of regular Samus. Although the obvious choice is not to add this on Wikipedia until a more valid source is found, I thought I should at least bring this to your attention because similar to Pokemon Trainer and Zelda it also affects whom the player starts out with. -71.59.237.110 (talk) 19:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

It's been over an hour and there have been no negative responses to this idea. I'm going to delete the citation. oobug^talk/_contrib 19:34, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't. An hour is not NEARLY long enough. Give it a day the least. I'm telling you this becuase I've made this mistake in the past. I do agree that the note isn't doing much though.Satoryu (talk) 19:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I can wait for awhile longer. However I had mentioned this change higher on the talk page a couple of days ago, and received basically no response. I based my action on my observation that nobody seems to mind whether the section is deleted. Nevertheless, I'm perfectly content to wait. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oobug (talk • contribs) 19:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You shouldn't assume like that. Just because people aren't talking doesn't mean they don't care.Satoryu (talk) 19:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Yea the footnote thing is kind of stupid Onepiece226 (talk) 20:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Onepiece226

I don't really care for the footnote so I'm all for removing it. The Light6 (talk) 01:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Woah, hold on there Sluggger, you gotta give it some time, it was just put up today, some people who work on wikipedia haven't even probley seen this yet!Onepiece226 (talk) 01:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Onepiece226

The points are very valid. That footnote doesn't illiterate anything different about the character aside from how he plays. I too agree about removing it.--HeaveTheClay (talk) 02:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but an outsider could be heavily confused. They could ask 'Wow, I get to play as the individual Pikmin too?' I think the footnote should be put back. It's not like we're adding movesets, just that they need each other to function at all. Oubliette (talk) 00:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Masahiro Sakurai

This article has no mention of him whatsoever...since that last edit by Heavetheclay. I've been pondering, but I don't know how to fit his name in without adding an awkward sentence. Could someone help? --haha169 (talk) 00:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Sora confirmed as developer for SSBB

Nintendo UK list Sora Ltd. as the developer for Super Smash Bros. Brawl, shouldn't this be added to the article? - Addit (talk) 01:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Laundry list of characters

I don't think the character list really belongs in the article. Wikipedia is not a game guide, nor a place for unencyclopedic laundry lists. The Smash Bros. (series) page should present an overview of the franchise, not list every single detail. Wikipedian06 (talk) 07:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The page doesn't list every single detail and I believe that the list helps add to an over view of the series by informing the reader of characters encounted in it. I would expect info on the characters from a game or series that is relevant when searching for it on wikipedia eg. Any user who looked up the X-Files would expect to find out who the main characters are either on the X-Files page or on an page for characters from the X-Files or individual character pages. The list simply tells you the characters and telling you something as simple as that I don't believe is game guide material, the only other way to do it would be too write a line or paragraph on each character which would probably take up more room, be more game guide like and be harder to get all the info just by looking at it. Also the fact that the character individual pages or sections in a characters list page tell you about their bit in Super Smash Bros. would make it redundant to have anymore info on this page. In short the list is fine as it is. The Light6 (talk) 11:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The main point of Super Smash Bros is that it features an ensemble of characters from many different games, so it would be logical to list in some way which characters are represented in each Smash Bros game. Not doing so would be ignoring vital information about the game series. As The Light6 pointed out, a table is the most efficient way of doing this. -IG-64 (talk) 11:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I echo IG-64. Because the essence of the Smash Bros. series is one of multi-series conglomeration, it's entirely relevant to provide a list of the characters from all the different series, providing links to their own articles and informing the user of the games in which each character is playable. To do this in paragraph format would be unsightly, wordy, and inconvenient. oobug^talk/_contrib 17:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Oobug, IG-64, and The Light6. If it were a table just naming the characters and their SSBB supers, I'd cry foul. However, the table names the characters as well as what series/games they hail from to allow someone to do some more reading on a certain character. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 20:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

And it's really not a game guide!, the Wikipeedia page is just so that people know what's the game about, and To show who the hell is in the game I for 1 think is 100% neededOnepiece226 (talk) 19:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Onepiece226

Besides any details at all about the playable characters are covered on their personal pages not this page. It is not giving any strategies or game-based tips. Besides only the characters with the ability to interchange themselves with different characters are qualified as footnotes because it indicates which other characters they are connected with. -71.59.237.110 (talk) 00:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Fighting game??

Why is this considered a fighting game series exactly? Doesn't it belong in the "beat em' up" category? Streets of Rage is considered a beat em' up, why not Smash Brothers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.77.245 (talk) 20:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Because it *is* a fighting game. The stages are small (and if they scroll, it's a forced scroll), you generally do not fight waves of baddies who want to rip out your heart to use as a piece of gum (unless you're playing Brawl's Subspace Emissary or Adventure mode), and there is PvP. Beat-'em-ups are voluntary-scroll, you have to fight wave after wave of baddies as if from a clown car, and there is only PvM. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 20:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Subspace, and Adventure modes are waves after waves of enemies, and of course bosses, this is the same set up as seen in... well every beat 'em up. Sure the main idea is Player vs Player encounters, but like in Streets of Rage 2, and 3 you can set them up the same way. It's like you're saying OutRun is a racing game, sure it has similar qualities, but technically it doesn't qualify as one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.77.245 (talk) 04:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I reiterate the two points you missed: You generally do not fight waves of baddies, and there is player-vs.-player. Beat-'em-ups do not generally feature a separate PvP mode, if at all; it's almost always co-op Player-vs.-Monster. Judge based on the whole game, and not two of its minor facets (for that's all the one-player modes are; facets of a multiplayer game). -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 05:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Nintendo.com claims it's a fighting game. We go by what they say. The Metroid Prime articles are good examples of precedents. Arrowned (talk) 05:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Didn't they also claim Metroid Prime to be an FPS? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.77.245 (talk) 05:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

They actually never did. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 05:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Metroid Prime is a first person adventure title. Arrowned (talk) 05:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thats what I am saying. Saying Smash is a fighting game is like calling Pikmin an RTS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.77.245 (talk) 05:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

You're making no sense (FPA ≠ FPS). Further, as I have stated, you are neglecting the largest part of the game - PvP. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 05:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Subspace Emissary can be considered a beat 'em up, But Subspace Emissary isn't all there is to Brawl. It's a game within a game. And the host game is a fighting game.Satoryu (talk) 06:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

So you're saying it's a bunch of games in one? If thats the case, it's either an action game, or a party game *hides*.

I don't think we're going to get anywhere making a V-Dash argument. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 06:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, Subspace Emissary is only one mode, while ALL the others are more of the fighting genre. -- User:MKalv —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.85.237 (talk) 14:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

You're absolutely right.Satoryu (talk) 14:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The more recent Mortal Kombat games also include adventure modes, but they are still fighting games, just like Smash Bros.VatoFirme (talk) 00:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Gray Cells

I saw how it said, "Gray cells denote unlockable characters". I didn't see any "gray cells", it might be because I am color-blind, but could someone look into this. Thanks.AlexanderLD (talk) 20:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

They're there. It's either your monitor or your color-blindness. -Sukecchi (talk) 21:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I see it too. Go check it at your school or work computer. If you still don't see it, then it might be your color-blindness. --haha169 (talk) 00:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I dont see it either. Must be crappy Internet Explorer or something. Atomic Religione (talk) 01:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I have checked it on Internet explorer and firefox. They do not show up on internet explorer but they do show up on firefox. Can someone check Safari?--Smashbrosboy (talk) 03:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, what are Gray Cells and where can I see them, I'm just wondering, I've never heard of them before.-LyokoTitan101 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.175.53.18 (talk) 03:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Then its just IE being useless. Use firefox. --haha169 (talk) 04:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Update: I just checked on Internet Explorer. It doesn't show up. Maybe there should be a notice there? --haha169 (talk) 04:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I just changed it from light gray to light blue so it is viewable in all browsers. - Alexander Vince (talk) 04:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a bit too strong. Could you perhaps make it a more subtle softer blue? 86.31.244.14 (talk) 10:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

R.O.B's series

I'm pretty much aware that R.O.B. is considered to be from the Robot Series: Gyromite and Stack Up. Could we put instead of NES accessory, Robot and put a link to either Gyromite or Stack Up? I'm going to change that now but if you have any objections, please change it. Thanksdeecee (talk) 10:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You discuss things before doing them. Listing him as an NES Accessory is fine. Because's that is what he is. -Sukecchi (talk) 16:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with it.SLJCOAAATR 1 (talk) 15:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Princess Daisy?

Why is Princess Daisy in the list of characters, while being marked with 3 X's? If she wasn't in the previous two games and hasn't been confirmed for this last one, why have her on the list? Has there been some indication she might be in? Jaimeastorga2000 (talk) 16:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Must be a mistake or vandalism in the template. It's fixed now. -Sukecchi (talk) 16:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

AS a side note on vandalism, someone posted WIERD characters on the chracter table. IE Harry Potter and Chuck Nores, SOMEONE PLEASE DELETE IT.-LyokoTitan101

Please sign in with 4 ~~~~. Thanks. --haha169 (talk) 19:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Deeply unappreciated

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Just cuz my com is acting funny and none of us can find this article doesn't mean I'm lying, so why do you have to be disrespectful and delete the discussion?? I was just about to respond to Arrowned, as I remember the article itself was not directly about Brawl, but on games that make use of the wii connect 24 service with small sections on SEVERAL games. One of them was Brawl, which had the longest section. It included an interview with Sakurai plus pics of Baba Ganoosh and Banjo Kazooie in battle. There not stupid photoshopped pics of them on the char select sceen, they show them actually fighting other confirmed characters on confirmed stages; these are too real to deny. Can some admin who has seen the article as well add them on. And if no one has seen them, please search on google or somewhere to find the article I really truly am not making this up. Why would I just randomly come out of the blue and post stupid untrue stuff? I'll continue to search my self (arrowned), but in the meanwhile I can only expect you guys to believe me. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 22:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, see Wikipedia:Verifiability. You can't expect us to believe you sans evidence, and regardless of whether it's the character-select screen or in combat, pics can be photoshopped. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 22:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes but there was a short video too. Banjo Kazooie were fighting meta knight on final destination I believe. And i know we can't deny videos. And why is it really so unbelievable for Baba Ganoosh and Banjo Kazooie to be in? There is plenty possibility of Rare going back to Nintendo and that their inclusion is a symbol of the two companies reuniting. Baba Ganoosh and Banjo Kazooie aren't extreme characters like...like Harry Potter who have no chance of getting in. And somewhere on the net that video and those pics and that interview are somewhere, and u guys are just too stubborn to believe me. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 22:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It's unbelievable because Rare is a third-party developer with respect to Nintendo (the quota is stuck at Snake and Sonic), and you have not provided any shred of evidence to support your claim. Show us some proof or go away. And videos can also be altered with the right software. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 22:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yea but whose going to go to all that trouble of photoshopping a video just to prove one character is in. And I already told u Nintendo rebought Rare after Microsoft's budget plans weren't appealing to Rare. It's kind of like how Roy was used to promote Fuin no Tsurugi, well Banjo Kazooie are being put into announce Rare once again becoming a second party developer of Nintendo. And besides Baba Ganoosh isn't a Rare or third party character he's Nintendo character and I haven't heard u say anything regarding him, is it maybe bcuz u have no substantial arguement that he ISN'T in??? 24.186.101.182 (talk) 22:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It's because YOU have no substantial argument that he is in. Proof or leave. And, again, I heavily doubt, borderline refute, Rare being reacquired by Nintendo, again because YOU have provided no proof of it. Now, stop posting here trying to get Banjo-Kazooie and Baba Ganoosh onto the characters list because it is not going to happen. Brawl has already been released in Japan, IGN has the full character roster, Sakurai has not mentioned anything about downloadable characters. Beat it and stop trying to feed us bullshit. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 22:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yea but there can be mistakes made. Maybe Sakurai purposely kept the wii connect 24 characters secret until now on purpose so not everything would be completely spoiled by hackers, ever thought of that? and IGN doesn't have all of the answers all of the time either, they believed that the final roster that was leaked was all there was as well, because Sakurai kept it all hidden so well. But now Sakurai's revealed it to IGN and they know the truth, and IGN is reliable. I have the proof its just my computer that's not letting me show it. And calm down you dont have to use foul language to make an arguement. I think everyone on wikipedia is behind me when i say that what I'm saying is true, except u few select people. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 22:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It's very presumptious to assume everyone's on your side when no one has tryed to back you up. Show proof or leave. If you can post on wiki, I don't see why you can't give a link or something. DurinsBane87 (talk) 22:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You're in left field with that comment. Any uninvolved person coming onto this talk page will side with me, Arrowned, and Succechi. Now, unless and until you provide proof, this matter is closed; I heavily doubt Sakurai will do downloadable characters, particularly ones that are patently Anglocentric (Rare is British, remember). -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 22:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I don't know all the mysteries and glitches of my computer all i know is that links arent working. Not only on wikipedia either, when I paste something in my url bar it disappears after I click somewhere else. I would've manually typed the url if I still had it, but I don't; I'm sorry I can't provide evidence, but you have to believe what I'm saying. And I still believe there are people who back me up on this. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 22:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

We'll see about that; I've asked some friends for proof of such. In any case, we cannot accept your word alone. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 22:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Come on stop trying to stop me from saying what I believe in, I have the right to speak my mind and I'm going to! And Jeske what do you mean Banjo Kazooie are British, last time I checked their games were released in Japan too so uh..you're wrong on that note. And stop trying to make yourself look big and mighty by saying you have people on your side. Arrowned and Succecchi are both on my side, I recall them backing me up earlier. So stop b**ching just because you don't want Baba Ganoosh and Banjo Kazooie in Brawl. This isn't a place for fanboys and if you can't accept their inclusion well then you can take it elsewhere but where going to add them to the list right Arrowned and Sukecchi? 24.186.101.182 (talk) 22:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not on your side. I am with Jéské. You have provided no proof. I looked on IGN and there was no Sakurai interview. I have never once stated I agreed with you. I said it was convenient that you suddenly lost the link. I think you should stop with all this nonsense and move on. The 'It's not showing up in my edit to the page' excuse is complete bullshit. Why would a link to something not show up but everything else you type show up? It's all garbage. -Sukecchi (talk) 23:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Further, Arrowned has not backed you up. The last comment shi made was that shi did not believe you, either, because of lack of proof.

And I do agree this is not the place for fanboys, which reminds me... Why are you still here? Nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to take you for face value. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 23:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

24.186.101.182 you really need to stop with this crap just shut your mouth and show us proof its not hard to copy and past the link where you found it.--Lbrun12415 23:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh woops I'm sorry I must've misunderstood you sukecchi. But I'm sure Arrowned still backs me up and also why do you have to insult me just because my computer is having difficulty? You know what your FACE is garbage!!! Me, DurinsBane and Coreycubed don't care what u say, we're adding them on. BANJO KAZOOIE AND BABA GANOOSH FTW!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAA! You and Jeske need to let go of your denial and stop being fanboys who just don't want them in the game so u make up excuses. Both Banjo Kazooie and Baba Ganoosh are in, and that's the gospel truth. Face it, I just have way more back up and proof than you and Jeske do. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 23:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You know what if you add you'll get blocked for vandalism.--Lbrun12415 23:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I have more proof that Absol is the Disaster Pokémon than you have that Banjo-Kazooie and Baba are in. Proof or leave. As Lbrun states, if you add it it will be reverted on sight, and if you're persistent in doing so you will be blocked for a time. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 23:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course I don't back you up, or else I wouldn't have replied to your original conversation with an extended paragraph that #1: said I saw no proof of your claim and #2: said I flat out didn't believe you. Please don't speak for others. Arrowned (talk) 23:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! IT JUST MAKES ME SO MAD THAT NO ONE EVER BELIEVES ME EVER WHENEVER IM SAYING SOMETHING TRUE. U HAVE NO IDEA HOW FRUSTRATED I AM RIGHT NOW! MY TOILETS BROKEN AND MY MOM AND DAD WON'T LET ME GO IN MY PANTS AND NOW THIS!!! I ALWAYS HAVE THE WORST LUCK!! Please, someone, have a heart and just believe what I'm saying. Sure no one else can back me up but I KNOW THAT WHAT I AM SAYING IS MORE THAN 100% TRUE YOU CAN'T DENY WHAT I AM SAYING. Look at my records I've never done anything stupid on wikipedia, I've always been a straight shooter who edits wikipedia justly. Why would I choose now to make up stupid stuff! THINK ABOUT IT!!! 24.186.101.182 (talk) 23:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Verifiability, not The Truth™. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 23:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I was quite clearly AGAINST you on this issue, so I don't know why you were mentioning my name. DurinsBane87 (talk) 23:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I got a response back from one of them. He hasn't even heard of the concept of "Downloadable characters". -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 00:33, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

AAAHHH! OMG!! I'M A COMPLETE IDIOT! I just remembered I only DREAMED reading that article about Baba Ganoosh and Banjo Kazooie!! Isn't that funny?? I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO completely sorry for all the trouble I put u guys through. I can't believe I made such an idiotic mistake. Wow, this is completely embarassing. Please, please please pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease find it in your heart to somewho forgive me. Let's just pretend none of this ever even happened. I admit, I would like the idea of seeing Banjo Kazooie and Baba Ganoosh or other characters be downloadable in Brawl. Baba Ganoosh could use his CandyCannon from Baba's Adventure for N64 as his side B and the sonic spiral move as his up B. Once again I'm SOOOO SO SO SO SOOOOO sorry. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 01:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid we don't care about your toilet, and the fact that you couldn't paste your link at this time is most convenient. My apologies if you are correct, but I've never heard of "Downloadable Characters" before either, and Japanese and Hong Kong players would have figured it out by now if it was real. --haha169 (talk) 01:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I vote we delete this discussion. Next time, please don't write with an over-exaggerated amount of letters. Also, attracting attention this way is quite annoying. --haha169 (talk) 01:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

woah woah woah, hold up haha...you weren't even apart of this discussion up til now soo i don't really think you have a right to say i was attracting attention. I already said I apologized about my stupidity, and I'm thinking u should just keep ur mouth shut. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 01:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I check back here every so often, and I get annoyed when people start popping up with random characters. See Rikara and such. And when I voted to delete this discussion, that was to keep other people from seeing your comments. I'm sorry if my words seemed harsh, but you need to calm down. Thank you. --haha169 (talk) 01:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

all right well I understand what u guys are trying to say. But I truly am sorry for insisting on something I thought was real. I hope all of u who got caught up in this will forgive me. I dont' want u guys to think I'm a fanboy whose not serious about justly editing wikipedia. Hopefully many edits from now we will be able to laugh about this. 24.186.101.182 (talk) 01:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yep, we probably will. However, to clear up one thing: I had in fact been in this discussion before you apologized, I was only being buffered by so multiple edit conflicts that I just gave up posting comments. Sorry about that, anyways. P.S. Someone, want to archive? --haha169 (talk) 01:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Archive

BTW, isn't it about time we archive? I've done it before, but I made a seemingly stupid mistake, in which I got accused for vandalism. Could someone with more experience in the art of archiving archive this entire page? It's getting quite long. --haha169 (talk) 01:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)