Talk:Streetcars in North America

Milwaukee Streetcar

The Milwaukee Streetcar project is currently under construction, and should be included as a system that is being built, not that it is just planned at this stage. That needs to be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.48.55.31 (talk) 22:39, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

The article says construction is set to begin in April. It will likely be added to the article when (heavy) construction on the project begins. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:58, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Journalists aren't always the purveyor of the latest facts. I was on site yesterday and saw the street with the tracks being prepped for installation and the maintenance facility fully underway in construction. The track installation might not start until early April, but the project itself is currently under heavy construction. I live in Milwaukee. You don't. Don't edit out facts you don't know anything about other than what you filter through your limited information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maximilian77 (talk • contribs) 18:41, March 23, 2017 (UTC)

@Maximilian77: WP:Verifiability, not truth – on Wikipedia, if an event can't be verified by an independent reliable source, it basically doesn't exist. We don't take the "say-so" of fellow editors on Wikipedia as "proof" of anything. It needs to be verified by a secondary source. Also, your I live in Milwaukee. You don't. Don't edit out facts you don't know anything about other than what you filter through your limited information. comment is completely inappropriate in a collaborative environment such as Wikipedia, and could be considered a WP:Personal attack. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:57, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Toronto streetcar

The Toronto streetcar system is undeniably a streetcar system. It does not have stations, it for the most part stops on the street, and for numerous other reasons it is not an LRT. However, it is listed on the Light rail in North America article as North Americas most successful and highest ridership LRT. So basically it is being touted on this article as the biggest streetcar system, and that article as the biggest LRT system. It is not an LRT. It needs to be removed from one of the articles. 64.229.245.159 (talk) 03:21, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

"Purported conspiracy theories"

They were convicted of the conspiracy in a court of law, and lost an appeal of that decision, so it's not exactly just a theory. Requesting change of title for this subsection so as not to mislead the reader into thinking their activities did not have perverse incentives. 142.118.18.61 (talk) 19:33, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Little Rock

I believe Little Rock, Arkansas has a streetcar as well. Is there a reason it's not included here? Source: [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sesamehoneytart (talk • contribs) 16:27, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

It's covered in the article under Streetcars in North America#Heritage streetcar systems. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:34, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

So it is... apparently I'm blind Sesamehoneytart 18:19, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

lead sentence

Older surviving lines and systems in Boston, Cleveland, Mexico City, Newark, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and San Francisco were often infrastructure-heavy systems with tunnels, dedicated right-of-way, and long travel distances, or have largely rebuilt their streetcar systems as light rail systems.

This makes no sense. Either the surviving lines were heavy or they are rebuilt? That's not a logical juxtaposition. Problem is, "and" instead of "or" isn't perfect either: if the lines are both "older" and "surviving" doesn't that mean they aren't rebuilt?

I'm not knowledgeable enough to sort this out. Most likely splitting up into more sentences will help. CapnZapp (talk) 18:25, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. I added a "clarify" tag. Moreau1 (talk) 22:41, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

People are misinterpreting this – it doesn't say "heavy", it says "infrastructure-heavy". IOW, the surviving systems were like San Francisco's – their streetcar lines went through tunnels that only streetcars could fit into, so those lines could not be replaced by buses. Pittsburgh was like this as well, IIRC. Then, later, they were (all) converted to "light rail" standards.

While there may be a better way to say this, the meaning of that sentence is clear enough right now. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:10, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

When you talk about "people" you clearly aren't talking about me. I did not misinterpret anything. And besides, both interpretations lead to the same logic deficiency. The meaning may be clear, but that doesn't change the fact the sentence is not constructed correctly. A reader can understand really poor English, but that doesn't change the fact the sentence needs to be rewritten. CapnZapp (talk) 23:35, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Talking a stab at this now. Since nobody has explained what was intended, I might not convey the original meaning perfectly. Then you improve the paragraph further. At least now the grammar makes sense. CapnZapp (talk) 23:37, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

The entire paragraph is hopelessly jumbled. About 22 North American cities, starting with Edmonton, Calgary and San Diego, have installed new light rail systems, some of which run along historic streetcar corridors. Which are examples of what is being discussed (old streetcare systems rebuilt into modern light rail systems)? Which cities have installed brand new light rail systems from scratch?

The rest of the paragraph reads as if intentionally written to muddle together all sorts, appearing to wilfully mix as many categorizations as possible, ensuring the reader can't make out any trends or separations! CapnZapp (talk) 23:44, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I believe the "22" (and that number is likely higher now) is referring to those cities that had old streetcar systems, dismantled them by the 1960s, and then built new systems since the 1980s, some of whose lines operate where the original streetcar lines used to operate – for example, both Los Angeles and San Diego fall into this category.

Again, I don't find that sentence particularly unclear in its meaning, though it's true that I am very familiar with the contents of this article, so it's possible that might be more confusing to someone who doesn't know anything about the subject. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:17, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

It's great to hear you are familiar with the subject IJBall. Then perhaps you can sort out the following:

• How many cities exist with "Older surviving lines and systems"? That is, old-style streetcar systems still in operation? If this number is zero, consider rewriting the sentence to not claim these older systems have survived.
• How many cities feature modern light rail? How many of these used to have older systems, i.e. systems that have not survived?
• How many of these light rail systems "run along historic streetcar corridors"?
• "A few recent cases feature mixed-traffic street-running operation like a streetcar." What does this even mean? What's the difference between a streetcar and "like a streetcar"?
• The lead enumerates four cities that have "built both modern light rail and modern streetcar systems"? Can I presume these are the only ones?
• "while Tucson, Oklahoma City and Atlanta have built new modern streetcar lines." What does this mean? As opposed to what?

The lead generally overflows in vague terms like "some", "a few" and "most". The article and the lead would be considerably improved if we could summarize trends and usages in a much more exact fashion. These are the questions that arose from my quick read-through. There may be more.

Thanks CapnZapp (talk) 16:10, 14 March 2023 (UTC)