Talk:Sogan-dolma

This article is about a Bosnian dish!

So,this article is about a Bosnian (in reality - Herzegovinian) dish, belonging to the Bosnian national cuisine! Yes, that dish has a Turkish name. So what!? Ottoman Turkish language had been widely used in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the past. Do not be so sure this dish has a Turkish origin just because it has a Turkish name! And even if it did come from Turkey - so what!? In Bosnia it looks how it doe's look now. In Bosnia! Maybe it has been changed, although it still bears the same name? It might also have been born in Bosnia (or somewhere else) and then adopted in the Turkish national cuisine (and others) too. So what!? The squash itself came from America! It might have been changed ih your country, too. So, that dish that you know as it is, that dish belongs to your national cuisine. You wouldn't like to have in your national cuisine category some dishes that are not really yours, wouldn't you? If you find that it's exactly the same dish that exists in your national cuisine too - fine; that would mean it's your national dish too. But, if you find it's not exactly the same dish - leave it alone! That would mean it's not your dish and do not try to grab it!

You have two choices:

1. Make a new article about your dish! If you absolutely need this name and you claim it's your name, because you're Turk and it's Turkish - well, that's why there're disambiguation pages. Or, you may even move this page to something like "Sogan-dolma (Bosnian dish)", never mind. But, just be careful not to break links! Do not be a vandal! Obviously, you would cancel links to your categories in this page and include you page in proper categories. You may add "see also (this page)", and "see also (your page)" in this one. But, do not change this one (unless you are talking about the Bosnian dish, off course)!
2. Make this article comprehensive, not just grab it. That means you would treat sogan-dolma as a unique dish with national (and maybe regional and so on) variants to be treated separately inside the article. So, you should provide a section for sogan-dolma as how it looks like in Bosnia (and Herzegovina, in the first place!), move everything regarding Bosnia (and Herzegovina :) ) to that section and you must not delete or alter anything (unless you are talking about that very dish, off course). That way every variant could have its own section and the article could fit in all national categories.

Ottoman Turkish language

Modern Turks certainly know the Turkish language. The modern Turkish. But, many modern Turks do not know many old words belonging to Ottoman Turkish and many such words have been preserved in Bosnia (and Herzegovina :) ). You are probably right if you say "dolma" comes from "dolmak" and means "stuffed", but... you see, in Mostar, the city where it is the local very speciality, they call those single onion layers "dolme" (sing. "dolma"), meaning, in that case, obviously, "shirts" (or "robes", if you prefer), obviously from Ottoman "dolaman" (that in those regions had been "dolama").

Separate pages

An user that wanders why he/she should have an user name wanders also why this is a separate page and wanders if we then should also have articles for patlıcan (egg-plant) biber (pepper) and other dolma types. Off course we should!!! If the basic ingredients are different, the dishes are different! "Dolma" is a type, the group they belong to, and that page certainly should stay. But, there're categories like  "Cabbage dishes",  "Onion-based foods" and so on (as well as the categories treating the horticultural crops), you can't just put the same generic "Dolma" all there around!

Quality Links

Somebody found the links provided in this page were "low-quality", without an explanation why they are "low-quality", let alone any notice about who is to decide which links are "quality" and which aren't (and under what criteria). Obviously, he or she didn't bother to provide any links, let alone "quality" ones; he or she just found himself/herself entitled to cancel what he or she didn't like. And I find perfectly right to restore them!

Kornjaca (talk) 00:04, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Collaboration on this page

Dear Kornjaca, you are taking very aggressive positions in your edits and your comments above. I'd like to remind you that Wikipedia editing is a collaborative process, and the article doesn't "belong" to any editor or country.

For this edit, your edit summary is "this edit was pure vandalism, arrogant and chauvinistic". I'm sorry you interpret it this way; I certainly didn't intend it that way and recommend that in the future you assume good faith.

As for the substance of the edits:

• I removed the comment on yogurt "locally known as Kiselo Mlijeko, literally 'Sour Milk'". I am not sure why you restored this. We normally don't include the local-language name of ingredients. Should we also translate vinegar "locally known as sirće, from the Turkish word"?
• I removed links to blogs and personal sites from the EL section. I believe this is consistent with our WP:EL policy.

As for your edits:

• I'm not quite sure what the point of the note "<small>^{{{Talk sect|This article is about a Bosnian dish!|See the Talk page!}}}</small>" is. The lead already says it is a Bosnian dish.
• You seem to subscribe to the theory that the name of the dish has to do with the Turkish word dolaman. This is a peculiar theory, since this is obviously a stuffed dish, and the normal word for stuffed dishes in Turkish is dolma, which means "stuffed". Do you have reliable sources for the dolaman theory?

Best, --Macrakis (talk) 09:56, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

OK

"chauvinistic" etc.

I've seen you've removed everything referring to Turkish stuff (I'm not a Turk), so I assumed such motivation. Im glad if I was wrong and I apologise. Actually I can agree that this is not an article about the word or phrase, but about the dish. I didn't add that category, but it doesn't disturb me if it's there. So, I've restored it along with all the others. It's not about the article, it's about the category. If there is such category, then it would be normal that this article too belong there. Yes, I do find a bit strange that such category exists and I struggle to see any sense. But, as we see - it is here (until some admin decide to cancel it). So... However, I won't undo your last edit and I will stay apart for that matter.

substance of the edits

• As you've said, this is not an article about words or phrases, but about the dish (although this is another dish). Many dishes or aliments that are unknown in English speaking regions can have same descriptive names when translated to English. There are various diary products worldwide that could be called "sour milk", But, they are different products! Sometimes very different. Maybe to... I don't know, let we say Inuit language (may Inuits excuse me) you should translate "cheese", "butter" and "icecream" by the same word? Do you think it would be right? The same about "dense natural yogurt". (Actually that "sour milk" isn't a yogurt at all - different bacteria produce it, although a really dense yogurt can appear very similar.) Somebody before you has "corrected" "dense natural yogurt" to some "strained yogurt", providing a wikilink to some kind of Arab cheese that has probably never been seen in Balkans. And I didn't simply restored the words - now, I've added the wikilink to the right subject (that article didn't exist when this one was created) - it is called "Bulgarian yogurt" here on Wikipedia, but, it's common in great part of Balkans as well (although it probably does originate from Bulgaria). It would have been a bit strange if I were talking about Herzegovinian speciality with "Bulgarian" yogurt. In Bulgaria itself it is called "kiselo mljako". And here in Italy, where I live, the same product appeared at market relatively recently, under the name - "Greek yogurt". But, if we leave just "sour milk" - it could be anything. Off course we shouldn't leave "sirće" since we can translate it at peace as "vinegar". An apple vinegar is always - an apple vinegar; a wine vinegar is always a wine vinegar... unless there's some kind of vinegar with such special characteristics that couldn't be rendered in English translation. Finally, neither "pizza" or "moussaka" are English words!
• The links point to cookbooks, to the recipes. Most cookbooks nowadays are on blog sites. What kind of links would you expect in an article about a dish? However, those aren't the links I have originally inserted - somebody has replaced them meanwhile, probably because they expired. And I find it better now (one link is in English).

my edits

• I didn't like it neither. And I was trying to be as discrete as possible. But, I was trying to prevent... above you can see what. Some users, probably Turks, see the name "Sogan dolma" and they think "well, I understand it - it's Turkish; we also make stuffed onions - so, it's our dish". And he/she starts to change everything according to their dish. No, if you need to change everything, it means that this is not your dish! You may have another one, similar, with the same name, but - different. Make your own article! Or, at least, talk about it in this page.
• No, I don't "subscribe" to that theory (nor I unsubscribe :) ) I'm not speaking about "dolma" as a type of food. In that sense the word may well come from "dolmak" (and it probably does, but, I do not bother about that at all). I am only talking about sogan-dolma. More precisely, in that case I'm not talking about the dish itself, but, about the single layers of onion to be filled. They are called "dolme" in Bosnia. Before they are stuffed! Just because they are to be stuffed, that is - to be used as containers (or dresses). That dolma doesn't have a reason to due its name to "dolmak", but, to "dolama" - the link is obvious. And it is also very possible that it has been associated to the name of the type of the dish.

Kornjaca (talk) 00:28, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Wow what is going on here. I believe you don't get to dictate what to do in Wikipedia so your mood is very questionable and looks uncooperative. Macrakis summarized my thoughts btw, he is right as hell. kazekagetr 22:16, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

The first line of the article clearly says what is it about. Yes, Macrakis gave a reasonable comment.Kornjaca (talk) 00:28, 8 February 2015 (UTC)