Talk:Shinn Asuka

Discussion and Opinions: Anti Hero Status

Hi again, I want to discuss now about the anti-hero status:

• He is considered by some of the internal cast and external viewers as one of the principal "bad guys" due to the fact that he opposes the established "heroes" from the original SEED.

It's true that he is considered by a lot of viewers (Fans) that he is the most bad guy ever in this series, although other people don't think that, I don't think that he is a bad guy for that reason, I think that this is the opinion of the fans that hate him; you see how Kira was selfish in the start of the series, he was destroying everything and fighting anyone; while Shinn was doing good things with his friends, they were fighting EA all the time, while Kira was a hindrance for their works. For that, I don't think that Shinn is a bad guy because he defeated Kira; if Kira wasn't defeated, who knows what will happen to ZAFT or EA? They will be eliminated if Kira beats anyone(Athrun, Heine, Stellar, Sting) who can stand in his way, as well as the new hero and his friends. Also, Dullindal and EA will lose, while Kira will win, so I don't think that he is a bad guy because he beats Kira.

I know why some people call him a bad guy it's because they hate him, Everyone said that he is a bad guy because he was fighting Athrun and his aims were against Athrun's and Kira's aims but he isn't a bad guy for that reason you saw how he was fighting against EA and when ORB sheltered Djibril, Cagalli and others wanted to rescue themselves in any way even if it's wrong and you saw how Athrun accuse him that he wanted to destroy ORB while he wasn't wanted that ever he was fighting to kill Djibril, And about the last battle Shinn fought Athrun because he knows that if he doesn't fight him Athrun will be a big reason why ZAFT will be defeated and then ORB and Terminal who stand against them and started the fight so they must defend their aims.

even though the series is presented from his perspective

No, not the all series I think that after ep34 which means the full protagonist switch the series was presented from the POV of Kira, Athrun, Lacus and what their friends want, you saw how Shinn was screwed and thrown in the back like he is a side character.

It is a subject of still-ongoing heated debate if the "Destiny Plan" was such a bad thing and if ORB were justified in their actions

And if Shinn is the bad guy it means that he was wrong in everything so when he was fighting EA he was wrong and then why Shinn is wrong why it's not Kira and Athrun who are wrong and the bad guys or does it means that if you are the hero you are right every time and the others are wrong, Kira and his friends were against ZAFT every time and they don't love it(except Athrun at the start of the series) Kira with his friends were fighting anyone in the start and Kira blamed ZAFT why they tried to shot down Archangel and him like they weren't a hindrance for ZAFT and a reason of why ZAFT lost some of their units and after Dullindal announced Destiny Plan you see how they refuse it without knowing the aim of it as I still remember ORB and Scandinavia were the only nations who refuse the plan(correct me if I'm wrong) so if the other EA nation agree why they don't want Dullindal to complete his work, Yes Not because I hate ORB and others and not because I support Shinn and ZAFT but it's because ORB and terminal wanted a war against Dullindal while he doesn't want that war, If Destiny Plan is plan for peace that everyone want and if Dullindal design this plan to create a world where Naturals and Coordinators can live together in peace why ORB doesn't want a something good or it's the un-trust of ZAFT and Dullindal.

And that what Fukuda and his wife said in an interview.

*Shinn seems to have realized that he's wrong during the final confrontation against Athrun have you ever thought of the possibility that he may go to Kira's side?

*Fukuda : I have absolutely no such intention right from the start, because I always want to create a story where in the end Shinn loses everything except Luna maria. I hope people don't misunderstand it, I don't think Shinn is incorrect (unjust? wrong?) at all. What Shinn and Dullindal have done are all for the good of the world, on the other hand Kira's side is the one which has somewhat deviated from the path of justice.

*What is the Destiny Plan? *By checking the person's genes, we can determine what sort of job the person is fit for, and everything else about this person. There be no conflicts and displeasure if all employment was based on results of genetic analysis. The Destiny Plan is a plan to achieve this form of society. Dullindal really would've liked people to accept this Plan out of their own choice, rather than strictly enforce it. Dullindal probably was planning for it since SEED. Astrys 01:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Err, I can say many things about your opinion, but the usage of discussion in this Wikipedia is not to discuss the topic itself but about the article. In my opinion your question is about the topic not about how to improve the topic. We should do this in another forum. I am sorry that I have to reply like this.

I will refer to Help:Talk page:

"The purpose of a talk page is to help to improve the contents of the article in question. Questions, challenges, excised text (due to truly egregious confusion or bias, for example), arguments relevant to changing the text, and commentary on the main page are all fair play.

Wikipedians generally oppose the use of talk pages just for the purpose of partisan talk about the main subject. Wikipedia is not a soapbox; it's an encyclopedia. In other words, talk about the article, not about the subject. It's only the habits we encourage that keep Wikipedia from turning into a slanging match. "

I don't know if that is not your intention. If so, forgive me to mistakenly taking your point.

Anyway, the sentence: " he is considered ..." , means that some (or a few) other may consider otherwise. I have added: at least in early episodes to sentence : even though the series.

Draconins 02:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know from any way you understand my point, I tried to write the things that I don't agree with and replying it by what I think that's everything, Like to say that even he was considered that he is a bag guy but he is not a bad guy what I mean that this was said by the fans so you can write that he is not the bad guy in the series referring to Fukuda's interview and about from whom POV the series was presented, The series was presented from Shinn's POV until ep34 but after that it's Kira's role and that's why there was a protagonist switch and you saw how the importance was turn from ZAFT to ORB, Terminal(Kira and his friend) then Shinn was seen as a failure or mistake (wrong) in the last episodes what he say or do without any agree and that's was described very very well in the last episode so we can't or we mustn't say that all the series was presented from Shinn's POV it's just until the ep34, And about Destiny Plan and if ORB were justified I wrote what's my opinion and just as I know in every anime series that I watched it if anyone want to do a good thing everyone(or the most) will listen to him so if anyone didn't agree with he will consider as a selfish and that's what I believe from I saw when I watched the series I think that ORB were selfish in their acts, However I'm sorry if I done a bad thing and I don't think that you done a bad thing it's maybe me how used the wrong way sorry for this again but I tried to improve this section from the article and nothing else if you know a better way tell me or I think that it's better to discuss in our talk pages and you may write your opinion about what I wrote before.Astrys 19:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you find source for the interview? It may be added if it is needed. However, whatever Fukuda says, is a fact, that he is considered as anti-hero by many (from what i know, it including some staffs). So you may need some sentence like this: although Fukuda say he is not an anti hero, many consider otherwise....... while referring to citation above. I also know that even Japanese and American anime and film reviewer put him as villain of series.

And about: "if anyone want to do a good thing , everyone(or the most) will listen to him. so if anyone didn't agree with him will consider as a selfish.", I completely disagree with this sentence. About the other (about ORB, etc), I can not say anything as it violates Help:Talk page, which is discussion about topic, not the article. Hope it helps.

Draconins 03:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Q. Why has Shinn Asuka always gone berserk beyond comprehension, and gone on into a killing rampage because his feelings and hatred about failing to protect someone he holds dear, and attempt to kill every person he deems to be his nemesis? Has he had no shame?The Professional 22:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC) Chao-Chen Jack Lin, Surrey, BC, Canada.

Taekwondo Master Lin 2006. 10. 31., 2:11 PM (Pacific Standard Time)

Umm.. do you people understand what an anti-hero is? 203.109.207.33 18:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

It isn't POV that Shinn is an anti-hero. It's a fact. Anti-heroes are not villains, quite the opposite. They are still protagonists.

What an anti-hero is. The article here on Wikipedia here defines it as: "In fiction, an anti-hero is a protagonist who is lacking the traditional heroic attributes and qualities, and instead possesses character traits that are antithetical to heroism." I think that Shinn has (as justifiable as they may or may not be) severe anger management issues, some emotional issues, and a good deal of rage within him until nearly the end of the series. Anger, unbridled hatred, mental instability, and rage are not heroic qualities. He is also relatively emotionally unstable/inexperienced when compared to Athrun or Kira (other series male protagonists). Considering all of this, I think at very least we are left with no choice but to consider Shinn as an anti-hero. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.158.192 (talk) 19:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

A question, if Shinn is an anti-hero then why is he called a hero/villain on his home page shouldn't we just simply call him a anti-hero? Oh and one more Shinn is an anti-hero but possesses some heroic qualities and lastly since he watch his family die his been emotionally tramutized who wouldn't be. --0Neosis (talk) 19:32, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

If you want to list Shinn as an anti-hero, you need to provide reliable sources, not personal opinions. His being emotionally traumatized has nothing to do with whether he is an anti-hero. Edward321 (talk) 23:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay if you want proof then here it is:

This searches are to discover with Shinn is an hero, villain, hero/villain, or antihero and here are the results, P.S. these searchs were done myself personally on Google.

• http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="Shinn Asuka hero" - 17,400 hits
• http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="Shinn Asuka villain" - 2,150 hits
• http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="Shinn Asuka hero/villain" - 1,670 hits
• http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="Shinn Asuka anti-hero" - 21,900 hits (If you type in anti hero its 2,470 hits, if you type in anithero its 1,270 hits)

There you have it by the general public's opinions, Shinn Asuka is without question an anti-hero by most of the people. However I will wait for your next course of action before I change anything; if you need anything else contact me on my talkpage.--0Neosis (talk) 20:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

A Google search is not a reliable source. --Farix (Talk) 21:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

It is a reliable because many other wikipedia pages have used google as a source for pages.--0Neosis (talk) 17:05, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't by that at all. Not to justify original research. --

Farix (Talk) 17:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Well that's just your opinion and I'll respect it.--0Neosis (talk) 17:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Tragic Hero

I think Shinn is tragic hero I mean I know he didn't die but his ending was somewhat tragic, besides you think I guy like him who lost his entire family and be emotionally scarred buy war would have a better ending than another tragedy. I agree with you I think Shinn is tragic hero because possese a naive and trusting personality as well as his anger which are his qualitys of tragic hero such as his belief in the Chairman and Rey and their manpulation of forcing him to through away his gentle nature and his habit of acting on his emotions and anger rather than his personally judgement, so know doubt from begging to end he possed those types of qualitys, I do hope however if there is another Gundam SEED series we well see a better fate for Shinn than that of a Tragic Hero.

Please sign your posts 206.248.248.221, Tylerwade123. Also, please read the definition of Tragic Hero [1], Shinn does not meet it. While Shinn's beginning is a tragedy, how can his ending possible considered a tragic ending? Shinn gets the girl and all the people he thought he'd killed while being manipulated survive and the man that decieved him is destroyed and his homeland is not destroyed. The qualities you list - naive, trusting, angry, acting on emotion - are not specific to tragic heroes. Oedipus is neither niave nor trusting, he is not manipulated by others - he ends up blind and insane, with his wife dead by her own hand. Take a look at the other classic example of tragic heros and you will see Shinn's ending is not tragic and he does not meet the definition. Edward321 (talk) 15:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

He may not be a tragic hero but I do believe he is a tragic person.--206.248.226.88 (talk) 02:11, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the Aristotle definition in the link actually fits pretty well. He "evokes in the audience a sense of pity or fear" well enough, the "the change of fortune presented isn't the spectacle of a virtuous man brought from prosperity to adversity", and Shinn IS a virtuous man who just get manipulated. He IS easy to relate to and does invoke the idea that what happened to him could happen to ANYONE. Sure, the redemption at the end was a Christian idea added in the Middle Ages and not a Greek one, but the lack of redemption was never a key tenet of the Tragic Hero. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.126.219.51 (talk) 16:21, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Unsourced Statement about Shinn's shift

It is stated: Shinn's shift from hero to anti-hero over the course of the series was purportedly influenced by the fact that his seiyuu, Kenichi Suzumura, somehow offended scriptwriter Chiaki Morosawa early in production, causing her to intentionally make his character less likeable.

Is that statement correct? I never found source stated these. Draconins 09:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I've been taking the original Japanese names (鈴村健一 / 両澤千晶 are Kenichi Suzumura / Chiaki Morosawa) and did a translated Google with them. And there were some things about "being chummy" with Athrun Zala's voice actor and this:

"Half year after the movement soldier Gundam SEED DESTINY' ending, not to insert the work of television animation excessively, it devoted to only DJ of radio program, because (Shinn Asuka was played, is not)."

(Original Link) http://wpedia.search.goo.ne.jp/search/%A5%B7%A5%F3%A1%A6%A5%A2%A5%B9%A5%AB/detail.html?LINK=1&kind=epedia

(Translated) http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://wpedia.search.goo.ne.jp/search/%25A5%25B7%25A5%25F3%25A1%25A6%25A5%25A2%25A5%25B9%25A5%25AB/detail.html%3FLINK%3D1%26kind%3Depedia&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25E9%2588%25B4%25E6%259D%2591%25E5%2581%25A5%25E4%25B8%2580%2B%25E4%25B8%25A1%25E6%25BE%25A4%25E5%258D%2583%25E6%2599%25B6%26start%3D90%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

I'm hoping that none of what's been stated is true. But if it is, then the reputation of Mitsuo Fukuda and Chiaki Morosawa outside of Japan...

Since when, in the entertainment field other than rap music, is it allowable to make a character less likable after the creator of said character gets into a hissy-fit over what's been said by someone who will play the character? Don't grown-ups usually settle their arguments away from the audience as oppose to stooping as low as defaming those with talent? Last I checked, that's the job of the audience and the audience alone.

Tyrenol 17:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Did anything on that link actually answer Dragonins' question? I am having a hard time understanding the connection. It does sound like an unsourced statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.126.219.51 (talk) 16:24, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Fictional psychopaths category

I've realized that a good deal of characters from Gundam Seed are listed under "fictional psychopaths". Would that many characters actually be apperopriate for that category? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.205.162.73 (talk • contribs)

Well, it really depends on the character. If you feel the need, go to the pages, read the content and remove—if necessary—accordingly per the actual defintion of the word. I'm not sure, but I think Shinn is arguably a psychopath. ACS (Wikipedian); Talk to the Ace. See what I've edited. 20:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The categories are another massively POV attempt by people who dislike the character to skew this article. Shinn never "turned evil", as the director himself has explicitly stated, and he can't be considered a "psychopath" or "mass murderer" by any remotely rational standard. If Shinn qualifies as those things, then so does every soldier who ever lived. 71.203.209.0 05:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I honestly wouldn't know, but I'll make some changes per these concerns. ACS (Wikipedian); Talk to the Ace. See what I've edited. 05:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh. Already removed. Hmm. ACS (Wikipedian); Talk to the Ace. See what I've edited. 05:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced

• The name Shinn Asuka is a reference to the Asuka period in Japan's history, just as Kira Yamato was a reference to the Yamato period which immediately preceded it.
• The names of the anti-ship swords of Shinn's two mobile suits may reflect Shinn's status in the series. The Sword Impulse's weapon, deemed "Excalibur" (King Arthur's sword), reflected him as a hero. The Destiny's weapon, deemed "Arondight" (Sir Lancelot's sword), showed him falling into an anti-hero classification, as Lancelot in Arthurian lore was once a hero that became an enemy.

Does anyone have any sources to show that these similarities aren't original research, and are indeed intended by the creators? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The First, I remember that I read both from interviews with Fukuda. The Second, I don't know. Draconins 11:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Shinn's given name means heart —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.248.221 (talk) 06:53, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Or servant or pencil lead or temple or candle wick or sleep or... [2] Edward321 (talk) 15:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Another Interesting note is that Shinn is the first anti-hero protagonist in a gundam series. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.248.221 (talk) 04:22, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Shinn is no more of an anti-hero than Amuro Ray or Kamille Bidan Edward321 (talk) 15:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but Shinn is to an anti-hero compared to any other Gundam protagonist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.248.221 (talk) 03:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Many fans believe the that Shinn is based off Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam protagonist Kamille Bidan. Tylerwade123

Unless you can find a sourced citation from someone involved in cration of the series, that is just unsourced opnion and has no place on Wikipedia. Please read the guidelines on reliable sources. Edward321 (talk) 05:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

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