Talk:Semang

May 2007

"They are a fairly pure branch of the woolly-haired Negrito race" - is that a technical term? That seems... odd. --AW 15:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

is this even true?

there are no citations for this article at all. has anyone heard of these people before?

..... Comment on SEMANG article, from Tortuga Bi Liberty, sunfreedom76@yahoo.com-- The Semang attracted attention in U.S. 1960s hippie culture because they had a cultural [spiritual?] practice of studying their dreams; and gradually learning to CONTROL [direct] their dreams while sleeping. If anyone has heard of this, or can cite any relevant source, please email TBL. I'm surprised that there's no mention of this. [As for those upset by "Negrito", that means "small black" in Spanish; term could go back to 1500's or so.] ............. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.203.207.120 (talk) 01:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

What is going on here?

This seems more like a section from a racist 1930s school book then a Wikipedia article! This is ridiculous! Sadly, I don't know anything about Semang people (that's right, not animals as this article seems to want to make you believe), or I'd rewrite this! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.75.174 (talk) 06:04, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

"They are probably the indigenous peoples of this area, and have been recorded to have lived here since before the 200s." What does the 200s reference? I know little about this subject but I do know that Malaysia was inhabited before 200CE or 200BCE. So were they in Malaysia 200,000BCE? Nitpyck (talk) 19:09, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Someone added 200CE but the cited article for footnote 2 says more than 4000 years ago. Which seems slightly more reasonable than to believe no one had inhabited Malay until after the current era. Nitpyck (talk) 04:50, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Tahitians - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. 06:39, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Term "Menraq"

User:Jeblat authors such as Alberto Gomes use the term "Menraq" to refer to the Semang generally, not to a specific sub-group. The sub-group that you might be thinking of is the Menriq/Mendriq, not the Menraq. --Pakbelang (talk) 13:00, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

User:Pakbelang sorry for the late reply, totally forgotten about this. It appears to me that in Alberto Gomes' book, Modernity and Malaysia: Settling the Menraq Forest Nomads, he refers the Menraq as a specific Semang group that resides only in the Sungai Rual, Jeli, Kelantan settlement. He states that it is a term that they refer to themselves in their own language. I suspect that this could be another case of a distinct group by itself, similarly with the recent discovery of the Jedek speakers. Also not to forget the Lanoh group consist of different non-related groups that were classified as Lanoh for government census reason as their population are very small- same as with the Temoq being incorporated into the Semelai people. Although the Menraq group may be very small and limited to Sungai Rual settlement only, but to equate Semang and Menraq as an interchangeable term is erroneous. -Jeblat (talk) 17:52, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Jeblat thanks for your reply. I agree there is some ambiguity here. Please see the following from page 23 of Gomes' book: "With the mixing of people from different Menraq groups as a result of resettlement and intermarriage, any attempt to establish clear social boundaries of a bansaʔ will be superfluous." I hope this convinces you that Gomes intends for the term "Menraq" to apply to several groups, and not just the one group that he studied at Rual. With kind regards, Pakbelang (talk) 01:35, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Pakbelang yes, I was referring to page 10 of Gomes' book from my earlier statement. Also you'll have to take into consideration in the context of resettlement (that's a huge part of what the book deals with) as well as what was mentioned in the earlier paragraphs in page 23. Other tribes like Batek conceptualize the idea of bangsa as a group of people sharing a common dialect and living within a specified range of habitation, whereas the Menraq would consider (the sentence before your quote of Gomes' book:) "this form of identification is nonetheless flexible at Rual". Now, if term Semang is interchangeable with Menraq, that is to say that the Bateq, as mentioned by Gomes in the earlier paragraph, would accept themselves as Menraq? What about other Semang tribes like Jahai, Lanoh (which already have a couple of distinct tribes that were lumped together), Kensiu, Kintaq and possibly even Thailand's Mani tribe? Will they too accept the name Menraq on themselves? That is isn't clear to me that that's what the author was trying to establish especially in the earlier chapters of the book. Chances are, if someone told a Batek man that he's a Menraq, he will in fact be clueless. I'm not dismissing the statement that Gomes pointed out concerning intermarriages of different Menraq groups (whether it's among different Menraq sub-group or other non-Menraq groups, to which the author did not specify it clearly) is not possible, in fact it is possible as the book discusses the subject of the government resettlement of the Orang Asli tribe in 1972. But as Gomes pointed out the term Mendraq was a term that is specifically used by an Orang Asli group in that region for themselves. That in itself is indicative of a small group that identify themselves as a distinct tribe. So, let us assume that it is a group of intermarriages of various non-Menraq groups, how is it possible that such group could have conjure up a name for themselves in their own dialect. My guess it could be their long existence that have led the community to develop a creole dialect of their own. Just who knows- the Peranakans and Ambonese Malay who are relatively much later than the Orang Asli are able to develop a creole language of their own. It's just isn't clear to me that Gomes made the claim that the Menraq is an interchangeable term for Semang and is accepted by all Semang tribes throughout the country. The book deals with a subject matter that is unique to a specific region.

In Ethnography & the Production of Anthropological Knowledge, Gomes wrote chapter 10, A comparative analysis of demand sharing among the Menraq and Semai of Malaysia. It might be strange for Gomes to make a comparison of a specific tribe like the Semai to a category of tribe like the Menraq, assuming Menraq is in fact Semang. Then that comparative analysis is hugely flawed. It makes more sense to compare a tribe like Semai with another Semang tribe like Lanoh, or in this case Menraq. Alternatively, Gomes could have made a comparative analysis among a category of tribes like Semang and Senoi instead.

Noriah Mohamed's Beberapa topik asas sosiolinguistik also identifies that the Menraq are separated from other Semang tribes like Lanoh, Kintaq, Kensiu, etc but places it the same as Minriq for different spelling.

Other older colonial sources have never used the term Menraq on the Semang. Other widely used terms such as Pangan and Negrito are often acceptable as interchangeable terms for Semang. That being said, I do not find your case compelling enough for me to accept the Menraq as a term that equates or can be used interchangeably with Semang. Using a term that originates from a small single area as the "gold standard" (my way of describing it :D) name for all the Semang tribes throughout the country is somewhat misleading. -Jeblat (talk) 16:16, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Jeblat Many thanks for your detailed reply. In general I think I now agree with you that the term "Menraq" is probably not an appropriate substitute for "Semang". I also agree that many (most?) Semang groups have never even heard of the term, let alone accepted the term. Neverhtless, it is clear that Gomes, in his book, uses the term Menraq to apply to Semang generally, and not just to the people of Rual. Pakbelang (talk) 06:51, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Pakbelang I think you're mistaken. Here's the thing: Can you consider the Batek as Semang? Yes. Can you consider the Semang as Batek? Not exactly, as the Semang are "general race markers" that includes other tribes apart from the Batek. Same thing as with the Menraq. That's where I think you've mistaken in Gomes' interpretation in which nowhere did he consider the Menraq as a "general race markers" to make it equivalent to Semang. Up to chapter 2.3: Who Are The Menraq? of Gomes' Modernity and Malaysia: Settling the Menraq Forest Nomads, Gomes never did make such equivalence of the Menraq. In fact when discussing the Semang in the chapter, he states that the no Orang Asli would refer to themselves by the "general race marker", in this case, the Semang but instead refer to themselves by autonym (name used by a group or category of people to refer to themselves or their language, as opposed to a name given to them by other groups) such as Menraq, Menri and Batek. Moreover, Gomes' contribution "chapter 10: A comparative analysis of demand sharing among the Menraq and Semai of Malaysia" of "Ethnography & the Production of Anthropological Knowledge" indicates that Gomes is well aware and makes a distinction of the Menraq as an ethnic tribe rather than a general race marker such as the Semang or Senoi.

On the other hand, Noriah Mohamed's Beberapa topik asas sosiolinguistik points out that Menraq as a language (iso-3 mnq) distinct from other Semang related tribes such as the Jahai and Lanoh. If it is true that Menraq is a general race marker like the Semang, then the language grouping should not be Menraq language but instead Jahaic/Northern Aslian languages. In OLAC resources in and about the Minriq language identifies the alternative name for Minriq language as Menraq language, and Spoken L1 Language: Minriq shows how the language is linked to others.

I strongly feel the confusion lies in my first point of this post. I've made my defense on the literature that you've cited, and have added additional backings from another contribution by Gomes and also from a linguistic stand point. There's more to discuss but we might end up deeper in a rabbit hole, so I'll limit the discussion within this sphere. Therefore, I stand by my argument earlier that the Menraq is not a synonym or an interchangeable term for Semang. -Jeblat (talk) 14:08, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Jeblat I agree with you that 'Menraq' is not generally recognised as a synonym or an interchangeable term for Semang and I have thus undone my edits to the lede of the article. Thanks for raising this point and also for all your excellent work on Orang Asli articles in general!Pakbelang (talk) 22:22, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Pakbelang You're welcome, but I can't take credit for another man's work. :D -Jeblat (talk) 13:32, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

CONCLUSION: Menraq and Semang are not synonyms.

User:Jeblat I agree that Menraq and Semang are not *generally recognised* as synonyms. However, Gomes (and at least one other author) does use the terms as synonyms. For further support, please see the summary here: https://books.google.com.my/books?id=xaZE3cUCW7YC&redir_esc=y This states in "the Menraq (also known as Semang or Negritos)". As well as the quotation I mention above where he refers to "different Menraq groups". In particular, in the village of Sg Rual there are at least three groups of Menraq (i.e. Jahai, Mendriq and Batek). Gomes refers to all three groups collectively as "Menraq". As I mentioned above, I'm happy with removing reference to Menraq from the lede but I think it is appropriate to include in the body because the term is gaining acceptance beyond Gomes and beyond Rual. See, for example, the adoption of the term by th Belum State Park patrol (in Perak): https://www.pressreader.com/malaysia/new-straits-times/20210307/281728387259279 . I'll be happy to provide more specific examples of the use of the term outside Sg Rual and by authors other than Gomes. Pakbelang (talk) 14:52, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Pakbelang OK. Give me some time. I'll try to reach out to professor Gomes himself for clarification. -Jeblat (talk) 15:03, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Jeblat Thanks, great idea. Again, I really appreciate all the work you have done on WP related to Orang Asli! Pakbelang (talk) 22:30, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Jeblat Hi, any updates?Pakbelang (talk) 11:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Pakbelang Hi. Prior to emailing Prof. Gomes, I thought that I should do some read up first on the subject just to avoid sounding like an ignorant idiot. But I've found that there are other variation on what the definition of Menraq might mean from other authors (if I recall correctly, journals/books from the 70s, might need to find it). It seems more info on the Menraq apart from Prof. Gomes might help to complete the bigger picture is needed. But I've been quite busy lately with work especially with the pandemic. Alternatively, a new write up sub-category heading on the Menraq under the Semang#Ethnic groups could be a solution. Here's the question that I've intended to ask Prof. Gomes on what defines the Menraq:

• Definition 1: Semang
  • Mendriq/Minriq / MENRAQ
  • Batek
  • Lanoh
  • Jahai
  • Kensiu
  • Kintaq
• Definition 2: Semang / MENRAQ
  • Mendriq/Minriq
  • Batek
  • Lanoh
  • Jahai
  • Kensiu
  • Kintaq
• Definition 3: Semang
  • MENRAQ
    • Mendriq/Minriq
    • Batek
    • Jahai
  • Lanoh
  • Kensiu
  • Kintaq

There could be other variations from other authors, as it appears that the term Menraq is not often used; officially or unofficially. Most of the time, the issue is the lack of clarity in those materials. If you have found other possible definitions on the Menraq from other authors, post it up here so I can send an email to Prof. Gomes for his opinion. Thanks! -Jeblat (talk) 12:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Jeblat, thanks for your reply. I think your definition 2 captures the Gomes meaning. As I highlighted, he uses Menraq as a synonym for Semang/Negrito. Pakbelang (talk) 23:58, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

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Semang as a "societal tradition"

I would like us to consider re-writing this article to reflect the view that "Semang" is not a group of people but rather a social organizational pattern. This position follows Benjamin (2013): https://bioone.org/journals/human-biology/volume-85/issue-1_2f_3/027.085.0321/Why-Have-the-Peninsular-Negritos-Remained-Distinct/10.3378/027.085.0321.short Pakbelang (talk) 18:12, 21 July 2022 (UTC)