Talk:Second Schweinfurt raid

Article Qualit

This sounds more like a bedtime story than an encyclopedic article. I think it needs a thorough rewrite with proper sources. 84.56.146.148 22:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Claims

"Bomber crews claimed to have shot down 138 German planes" Soemone put "(False)" after this. Do they mean no such claim was made, or that it was wrong, which is in hte article? Rich Farmbrough 14:33, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

The summary line, to say the least, is a spectacular understatement.--Buckboard 10:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I just read in Pierre Clostermann's book (Le Grand Cirque) that several squadrons of Spitfires with drop tanks escorted the bombers on the first and last legs of the raid. So the article is wrong claiming that RAF did not cooperate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.8.118.46 (talk) 20:50, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

correction of misleading term

The damage to the bombers is attributed in part as being caused "(more by AA-guns than the Luftwaffe)". It's important to note that the AA defenses in Germany at that point in the war manned by Luftwaffe ground units. It is more correct to say the damage was done "more by AA-guns than by fighter aircraft". I will make that change.

Sailboatd2 13:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

There exists differences between Allied air crew claims and German records in that Allied crews claimed all planes shot down but Germans only claimed it as being shot down if it crashed and killed the aircrew. If the pilot survived, it was not considered a loss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.204.182.171 (talk) 15:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Marienburg is far from Schweinfurt and at the beginning of the article there is nothing said about another force that went at this day in this direction, why mentioned here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.238.205.140 (talk) 22:29, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Picture

The exact same picture is used for the first raid.Could someone look into it? --Sam 02:54, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Results

This section of the article seems to be concerned with an entirely different operation, a raid on Gdansk, Gdynia and Marienburg, not with the Second Schweinfurt raid! It should be reviewed.

--84.226.146.251 (talk) 12:16, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

The section content was replaced wholesale sometime in 2011. I restored the previous text. —howcheng {chat} 02:52, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Losing Air supremacy ?

It is being claimed that the effects of this raid in 1943 caused the US Air Force to lose "air supremacy" over Germany for several months. I would dispute the assertion that the US Air Force had achieved "air supremacy" over Germany prior to this raid. Have a look at the definition of air supremacy. For one side to have achieved "air supremacy", the other side must be suppressed to the point of being ineffectual. In 1943, that was not the case. Tallewang (talk) 07:03, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

It was. Cause and effect. Heavy losses, inability to sustain operations, failed strategy (thanks to flawed intelligence). Dapi89 (talk) 18:56, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

It was not. We couldn't lose it because at no point up to then did we have it to lose. Putting in this article is misleading. The author of the book this quote comes from repeatedly talks about air superiority, and about how the AAF gained it, in the Med, in Africa, in Sicily, and in Italy. Nowhere does he mention or argue that at any time before the end of 43, where the book ends, that we established air superiority over Germany. And if you don't have it, you can't loose it in the fashion implied by the use of the quote here. It's obvious from what happened in the Schweinfurt–Regensburg missions that we could not have possessed any thing resembling it. Yet it is a quote from the book, but there is a huge difference in being a reader reading a line on page 705 of a huge work full of contexts, than reading it in an encyclopedic work. It would be easy for a reader here to get the completely false notion that the Allies had air superiority over Germany at any point prior to Oct 43, then lost it. Jackhammer111 (talk) 03:02, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Link to US and German losses

• US Fighter losses at Schweinfurt
• Luftwaffe losses at Schwienfurt
• Luftwaffe losses at Schweinfurt
• Luftwaffe Claims and losses at Schwienfurt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.92.30 (talk) 12:32, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Air battle; RAF fighter participation

According to Pierre Clostermann's own account of the operations this day (The Big Show, ISBN 978-1-4072-2200-4), RAF Spitfires flew escort missions alongside the Americans into Germany. Would someone with the required skills please add this information to the page and include the British/RAF to the table showing the belligerents. 94.196.110.244 (talk) 23:11, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

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Casualties and Losses

There's an information box on the right of the article titled "Casualties and Losses"

For the Americans is notes that 1 P-47 3 P-47 fighters

were lost

Why is one P-47 differentiated from the other three ?

Montalban (talk) 13:35, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Number of KIA listed likely incorrect; should be re-evaluated using more up-to-date data

It currently says “ ~590 KIA, 43 WIA, 65 POWs.”

There is simply no way this is correct. It seems to presume that airmen whose status was unconfirmed following the mission were confirmed KIA. While the number of KIA is not small, hundreds of those were actually POWs.

B-17 crash sites for this mission and the fate of their respective crews can be viewed at the link below. While this link is not an academic source, it references each crew member and their specific fate, and references each Missing Air Crew Report for each aircraft.

https://b17flyingfortress.de/en/datenbank/b-17-verluste-bei-schweinfurt-mission-am-14-10-1943/ 2600:1700:290:91B0:50A6:62DE:20F:BBAC (talk) 14:24, 5 February 2024 (UTC)