Talk:Sandro Ramírez

False stats and honours!

This is a piece I posted on a football blog. I think it raises serious doubts about the accuracy of the claims made on this issue:

His Wiki page shows his honours as having won the Spanish Cup (False: wasn't even on the bench) La Liga (False: Played only 7 games and you need at least 13 to get the medal) CL (False: the stats column claim played three games, but he is not even shown as having been an unused sub on UEFA.com). UEFA Supercup (he was an unused sub) and FIFA World Club Championship (where he played 18 minutes against Guanzhou) . He is credited with one CL goal, which seeing as he has yet to play in the comp, truly is amazing.

I am not sure what the criteria is to get a winners medal in all the above comps, but it looks like the OP has listed all the Barcelona honours for the team, and then attributed them to the player, whether he played in the comp or not. I don't believe that UEFA award medals to players who failed to even make the bench.46.7.85.68 (talk) 11:07, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Apologies. I've since found multiple errors in my previous post, and with the exception of the La Liga champions medal and possibly the Copa Del Rey.My researches show that there is a 10 game minimum for a La Liga Champions medal. I can find no evidence that medals are awarded to players who do not at least make the bench in the Copa Del Rey final.

I've just seen that Demba Ba was awarded a medal for Chelsea in the EL,even though he was cup-tied and unable to play in the comp for them. It certainly devalues the award if players are awarded medals so trivially46.7.85.68 (talk) 22:30, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

@46.7.85.68: Even if your research is correct, we cannot change this until you bring us some sources to prove your point. Vermaelen was awarded those medals even though he only played one game during the whole past campaign. MYS77 ^✉ 20:09, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the fact that I might as I have admitted, been in error, you do realise that you are asking me to prove a negative. I am not the one who claims that he has all these awards, and therefore if that is what is claimed, there should be a source saying that X won a medal for this. If there is no source for each individual award, then it is questionable why it is stated that he has won all these awards.46.7.85.68 (talk) 14:10, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

@46.7.85.68: "There are no sources": no, there are sources when the player did not receive his medal (see Vermaelen's case). There's nothing about Sandro. MYS77 ^✉ 14:22, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

With all due respect, I think that your reference to Vermalen is specious. We are talking about Sandro in this case, and the natural thing to do is to list the awards that a player attained. When there is reference to a a player not getting an award, there is often unusual circumstances behind it. If you are to be taken at your word, you seem to imply that unless I can find a reference that he was not awarded this medal, then he must be credited with it. As I stated earlier, under these circumstances, you are taking the wholly unreasonable position that it is for me to prove a negative. Whoever posted the item listing these awards, should be able to quote sources and there appear to be very few of these regarding this issue. It seems to me that the position is that Barca won these various trophies, and Sandro was in the squad though he may not have actually even been used as a substitute, the OP has credited him a medal.46.7.85.68 (talk) 13:21, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

@46.7.85.68: Still, no sources to prove your "point". Provide us sources and we change the article. Unless you include some reliable sources to back up your theory, the article stands this way. MYS77 ^✉ 13:32, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

As I have pointed out previously, your requesting me to find sources saying that he didn't win these awards is taking the preposterous position requiring me to prove a negative. There are no sources as far as I am aware, that say that I didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize. Based on the way you have set the question, does that mean I won the NPP? On the other hand, there are plenty of publications that list the NPP winners so on that basis, as my name is not among them I think it is safe to say that I never won the NPP. So why can you not find a publication that lists all the awards that you have credited to Sandro.46.7.85.68 (talk) 16:55, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Further to my last post, I notice that at the top of the page is the warning that unsourced or poorly sourced material should be withdrawn immediately. We can put this matter to bed if you can show the sources for your claims, but if not, you are in breach of the rules as I read them here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.85.68 (talk) 17:00, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

You want me to discuss a subject that you brought up from nowhere and I'm the wrong one for wanting sources? Okay then. I will discuss this "blindly": Sandro appeared in Barcelona's La Liga winning campaign, as well in the Copa del Rey, and was in the squad of both FIFA Club World Cup and UEFA Super Cup finals. All of these things are enough to earn himself a medal. MYS77 ^✉ 13:36, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

The subject was not brought up from "nowhere". It was brought up on the basis that Sandro is credited with a host of awards that is not sourced from anywhere, and you have now compounded that with your subjective comment "Sandro appeared in Barcelona's La Liga winning campaign, as well in the Copa del Rey, and was in the squad of both FIFA Club World Cup and UEFA Super Cup finals. All of these things are enough to earn himself a medal". The question is not whether he appeared in these comps, but whether the competition criteria is so low, that playing a few minutes in say a preliminary round, is enough to earn a medal. If you are right, you should be able to show a source listing his awards, or a source listing the criteria for qualification. It is not for me to prove the negative. So where are your sources that he won these awards?46.7.85.68 (talk) 16:46, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

You were the one who started the discussion, mate. Please respect WP:BRD and provide sources to back up your point. BDFutbol, Soccerway and even Barcelona's official website credit those titles to him. So please, provide a reliable source to prove your own point. MYS77 ^✉ 19:01, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I now accept that you are correct, but your attitude here has been far from helpful. I admit I was wrong and the basis for my thinking was that in nearly all these comps, his involvement was almost peripheral and yet he wins all these awards. I accept that it is true, but I find it difficult to believe that if he is on the subs bench or played a few minutes, this entitles him to a medal. I think it calls into question the whole value of these medals. Regardless of whether I was wrong, your logic in requiring me to come up with a source that says he didn't win these medals is preposterous for the example given regarding NPP. I assume you knew about the Barca site from the beginning. That being the case, why did you fail to mention this in the beginning? Other than that, my apologies for challenging you on this.46.7.85.68 (talk) 09:49, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

No worries. But I didn't know about the Barça website, I only came up with these refs after a (very) quick search. And all of those links I've provided are referenced in his "external links" section, so a "quick trip" to them would have done the trick. Cheers, MYS77 ^✉ 13:15, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2017

Davekgoodnight (talk) 18:35, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 18:55, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Timestamps

Hi, I see there is an edit conflict brewing over the infobox timestamps. Per the template documentation, we should add "A timestamp (~~~~~) at which the player's club statistics are correct (not needed if the player has retired)." Based on this, I would say that Davekgoodnight's version is correct. Thanks, Mattythewhite (talk) 14:46, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

@Mattythewhite: "A timestamp (~~~~~) at which the player's club statistics are correct (not needed if the player has retired)." Either way is perfectly fine, as his last match was played on 21 May 2017 (on club terms). To be honest, I don't think this is worth a fight, what is need of an attention is @Davekgoodnight's way of talking. This is not how Wikipedia works and I certainly would not like to collaborate with an user of his attitude. MYS77 ^✉ 18:12, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

@Mattythewhite::@MYS77: I agree with Matty. The general consensus is when we update the infobox, we add "a timestamp (~~~~~). You don't need a player to play a match to update the infobox. For example, Aaron Lennon page latest infobox update which was done by the admin. I apologize again MYS77 if my message on the Sandro talk page caused misunderstanding. English is not my first language and there is no prejudice at all. Peace. Davekgoodnight (talk) 18:44, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

@Davekgoodnight: No worries. Cheers, MYS77 ^✉ 19:05, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

• User:Mattythewhite: just a question, if a player has retired from the national team (and Sandro has from the under-21s, he is 22 years of age and thus not eligible for any other Under-21 Championship qualification tournaments let alone the finals) we surely are allowed to remove their NT update field, re-adding it if/when they make their full debuts, no?

Attentively to all --Quite A Character (talk) 21:23, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

• In that case, I would personally leave the parameter blank. Mattythewhite (talk) 21:28, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Already took the liberty, if i am reverted then "take it to Dave", i'll leave it as they want it :) --Quite A Character (talk) 21:37, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

@Mattythewhite: I think it is a common practice we don't just remove the NT inbox field as it gives information as to the statistics are updated till the date shown in the infobox. If a player reaches 22 it does not necessarily mean he is ineligible for Spanish U-21. For example: Deulofeu is 23 and was still playing for Spanish U-21 last month. Thus, I have reverted the NT field to the original. If the admin thinks it is unnecessary, please amend accordingly. Thanks again. Davekgoodnight (talk) 08:16, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Deulofeu was playing last month with the under-21s at the age of 23, yes sir, but he started the qualifying phase in 2015 at 21. Sandro will start the next qualifying tournament at the age of 22, so he is not eligible! I give up. @Mattythewhite: am I correct in this approach? --Quite A Character (talk) 09:10, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

With due respect, the player does not retire professionally or internationally so to remove his NT update field is not reasonable. Deulofeu was just an example. What I mean is normally editors do not just take away the section. There are a lot of precedence. Then again, the admin may make the decision (or have already done it earlier in this thread?) and I am going to respect that. Davekgoodnight (talk) 10:22, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

In my experience, if a player is no longer eligible to represent a national team (as is the case here), the national team parameter is blanked as it no longer serves its purpose, as the end year (2017 here) is present. We don't maintain the club update parameter when a player's club career is over, so it makes sense to do the same with national teams. Mattythewhite (talk) 12:05, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

@Mattythewhite: Just to clarify. Is that mean we have to remove the national team parameter of a player if he is no longer eligible to represent his U-21 team but yet to represent the senior team? I don't see a lot of pages are done in this way but if you think this is the practice, I will follow. I check out a lot of premier league players' pages, editors rarely remove the national team parameters because the updating of career statistics and international statistics are ongoing. I can understand if you remove the career and national team parameter of a player if he is retired but he is not. Davekgoodnight (talk) 14:27, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

That's what makes sense to me. Might be worth bringing it up at WT:FOOTY for more opinions? Mattythewhite (talk) 14:30, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

@Davekgoodnight:, if he does not make debut for Spain A, you can say he has retired from the national team. Nevermind, i'll take it to WP:FOOTY. --Quite A Character (talk) 15:03, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

• I am honestly not sure if we should remove the NT param since he can play for the senior national team. However, it's a bit unnecessary if he stopped to play for the youth teams described. I'm pretty sure we need to discuss and gather some consensus over this. MYS77 ^✉ 15:15, 26 July 2017 (UTC)