Talk:Provo, Utah/Archive 1

Archive 1

Obscenity

Guess what: a user in the vicinity of Provo, Utah, tried to delete the obscenity section, which was quickly returned to the encyclopedia. It looks like Provo is ashamed to let the world know of its heavy consumption of pornography. The IP address of the anonymous user is 158.91.197.184 (which resolves to a town in the vicinity of Provo). CoolGuy 07:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Of course users from Provo are more likely to have this article on their watchlist than users from elsewhere, and they are more likely to react to a section titled "Pornography" in this article. The story just shows that Provo is a lot like other places; that would be a lot more relevant if the article claimed people there were different. Maybe you can find a less inflammatory way to add the information (e.g. rephrase, or make it a separate article linked from here). As it is used now, it sounds too much like "in your face!". Rl 08:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

LDS Church members are against pornography, no doubt. However, it is likely that people in Provo have had experiences with it. The incident with the Marriott Hotel and the gentleman who had the lawsuit very well may have occurred (I never heard about it). It does not, however, seem like the incident was big enough news to merit inclusion in an encylopedic entry about the city of Provo. Provo is likely not 100% free of pornography. However, in all probability, the incidence of its use in Provo is probably far lower than in other cities. In this regard, it is downright silly to have an entire paragraph about the subject in this entry. (unsigned by 24.251.218.145)

Actually it is quite encyclopedic. It's what some in legal circles call a 'landmark case.' I know some people are embarrassed about this case, but we're here to write an encyclopedia, no censor information. Don't delete the section because there are other pages that link to it. To the previous writer, a lot of people haven't heard about it, but you seem to be writing from Arizona and seem to avoid reading about these topics so I wouldn't expect you to know about it anyway. You do seem to have no problem putting your own personal views into the article (I never heard about it --> delete). CoolGuy 03:34, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Maybe if you could provide some source material for it. Why is it a landmark case? What did it change about Provo? It seems like the statistics of obscene pay-per-view downloaded from one hotel is being used to make a conclusion about Provo, and the way the paragraph is written, the entire state of Utah. To be logically correct, you should compare the stats for this one Marriott hotel (I guess in Provo) to Marriott hotels across the nation. If this Provo Marriott had a higher incidence of porn ordered per customer than Marriotts across the nation, then maybe you'd be on to something. As of now, it just seems like you're making an assumption. So show some source material to give the paragraph some legitimacy. (unsigned by 24.251.218.145)

The importance of this case is self evident. This materials obscenity was evaluated based upon it's ability to sustain a market. Community Standards now means Profit Margin. Granted it is a more quantifiable standard, but it is even more arbitrary than the former ridiculous standard.

Read some of these pages [1] CoolGuy 04:03, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It still doesn't seem like much of a landmark case. (unsigned by 24.251.218.145)

Why is it that Provo residents are, in fact, heavy users of pornography with respect to the United States? The findings don't seem to be intuitive. CoolGuy 03:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure you have any sold numbers to legitimize this. I still doubt the average Provo resident looks at as much pornography of the average New Haven resident, for example. (unsigned by 24.251.218.145)

Where are you coming up with the data for this conclusion?

Again, see [2] CoolGuy 04:03, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

The articles you reference back up your conclusions, but they themselves don't offer data. (unsigned by 24.251.218.145)

Provo is quite beautiful! CoolGuy 03:45, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Is it reasonable to assume that the hotel patrons that order adult media are Provo residents? If not, then the conclusion should not be included. [Vagabondx4]

I was thinking the same thing. Here's what I found: "He then obtained records on how much erotic fare people here were buying from their cable and satellite television providers. As it turned out, people in Utah County, a place that often boasts of being the most conservative area in the nation, were disproportionately large consumers of the very videos that prosecutors had labeled obscene and illegal. And far more Utah County residents were getting their adult movies from the sky or cable than they were from the stores owned by Larry Peterman." (from a New York Times story) Rl 17:59, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

This is insane. The investigation by some guy who wondered whether people in Provo watch more pornography than other places in the country is COMPLETELY UNENCYCLOPEDIC. Just because Provo has the reputation of a very conservative, religious city (and rightfully so) doesn't mean that some person has to come out and say that "they watch more pornography than what their reputation would suggest". I think the only reason it's there is to "prove a point" that Provo isn't as "conservative" as many people think it is, which is not the kind of content that encyclopedias are for. bob rulz 11:18, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

The section on the "Obscenity Trial" seems a bit awkward and out of place, especially for an encyclopedic text. I would suggest creating a new article detailing the events of the Larry Peterman trial, and removing the reference to the Peterman trial from the Provo article. Although the paragraph recounts matters of public record, the trial doesn't seem to have any of the markings of a landmark decision, nor does it seem to deserve such prominence in an article about the host city.

For instance, did the Peterman trial shape the local public consciousness? Did it expose a major scandal, or have a long-lasting impact on local customs, culture, or worldview? The anecdotal evidence cited and lack of any substantive empirical data serves to call into question the objectivity of the post, and casts doubt on the statistical merit, historical significance, or scholarly relevance of the information in this context. Please see the “Undue Weight” section of the Wikipedia “Neutral Point of View” Policy. Remember that an article about a city's geography, demographic, and points of interest is not meant to be an investigative journalistic outlet for projecting an agenda against perceived collective hypocrisy, nor is Wikipedia an appropriate soapbox for asserting subtext opinions juxtaposing public sentiment for or against pornography sales with alleged contrasting consumption rates. nm1m 01:00, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

Try not to erase encyclopedic data from Wikipedia. It's better to reach a consensus on it's appropriate place. CoolGuy 01:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Somebody went ahead and removed the obscenity trial section. Does this mean that I can remove the disputed tag from the page? bob rulz 03:54, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

No. Please get it back. It was removed without consensus. CoolGuy 03:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

While it may have been removed without consensus (debatable), there isn't any real reason to have it up (Undue Weight, and unanswered questions as to the validity of the article), and I believe there is a Wikipedia:Consensus because of the Supermajority here. Maybe I'm wrong. I do think that this information does need to be available, but not directly in the Provo article. McKay 20:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Utah Valley Wikipedians

To speak frankly and in a manner not entirely encyclopedic and NPOV... I live in Utah Valley, and I'm denominationally LDS (though not originally from the area) and I've observed that virtually everyone in the valley is obsessed with appearing like perfect clean-living people. (Compare Pleasantville and Chocolat, which gave my family goosebumps because of their similarities with the valley.) I mean, I can appreciate that people want to be good people, but that requires being good, and not simply looking good. That people would find the information here atrocious is not surprising, but neither is their eagerness to erase it, and I do find this predominating whitewashing obsession to be extraordinarily harmful, not only to the fact-keeping principles of Wikipedia, but also to the very morals that Provo residents seem to want so much to have. So, if you are an editor from Utah Valley and find this information to be humiliating, then ignore your image shame (because pride is an unchristlike vice) and adapt to reality as it exists, rather than rewriting it on the surface to conform to how you would prefer the community to look. This dirty laundry in the city's history needs to be here for everyone inside and outside of Provo to know about, because if you're a Provo resident and want good principles, it's better to be good than to look nice, and people are better people by remembering their own mistakes and the mistakes of those around them, and learning from them. Instead of deleting this history, we should engrave it in stone, document the shocking detail here in dispassionate unomitted unembellished NPOV, and move on with our lives. - Gilgamesh 11:16, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

"Shocking Detail" - uh, right. I don't say that the obscenity trial stuff should be removed, but I'm not sure that an article about the city of Provo should in any way focus on that. Also, Gilgamesh, you seem to have some real issues. -Raskol 17:32, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

There probably is some value in retaining the information about the obscenity trial, but it belongs on its own page. An article intended to present general information about the city of Provo is not the appropriate place to describe a single, minor legal case. Perhaps if this were a page about Provo-related case law, a single paragraph would fit. As it stands, though, a link to a separate article is sufficient if not excessive.--12.160.33.128 19:02, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

• I agree with 12.160.33.128, whoever that is. It doesn't seem like something that should be on a page describing Provo, but rather something apprpriate for a linked article. Especially since it would likely not be something on any other city description page. --nihon

• I would have to agree with Gilgamesh, I find Provo and Utah County in general to be stifling and creepy. I am from Utah, and still currently live here in Salt Lake City. The idea that Utah County people think they are so much better than everyone else, more righteous than the rest of us, is well known. I wouldn't stop in Utah County except to buy gas. Gilgamesh does not have problems, he is spot on in his assessment. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.108.252.225 (talk • contribs)

• • I always find it amusing that people still think this way. I've always found most people in Utah County to be very friendly and not in the least stuffy, holier-than-thou, or creepy. I've also found that most people who seem to think this way tend to come with preconceived notions of how people in Utah County will be, and then look for those attributes or read them into the people they meet. If you don't want to stop in Utah County except for gas, it seems to me that the problem doesn't lie with the people of Utah County, but rather in your preconceived notions. Maybe it's time to just be friendly and quit seeing things that aren't there. (and for the record, I'm not from Utah County originally, and I've lived all over the place, including places outside the States) --nihon 23:59, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not so much that Utah Valley is creepy, though in a few ways it is. I mean, I'm denominationally LDS, but I grew up overseas, and arrived in Utah feeling like a foreigner. And now that I've lived here for twelve years, I can say without any doubt or hesitation that Utah Valley has a huge obsession with having a squeaky clean image. People are nice and friendly, but this masks the fact that everyone is always trying to outnice everyone else, and keep as conservative an appearance as possible. People who live here, who don't follow all the unwritten social rules (most of which I think are based entirely in culture and not actually in religion) tend to be considered outsiders—that is to say, everyone will give you a smile and a nod, but they won't accept you as being a real part of their community unless you fit the mould of Molly Mormon and Peter Priesthood. In this culture, I've found that many very serious subjects are considered taboo to discuss because they're too unpleasant or controversial—it should not be surprising that this valley has a high use of antidepressants and a high rate of private pornography sales. My parents saw Pleasantville and it gave them nonstop goosebumps because the dysfunctions paraded in that story were just like the dysfunctions everyone hides under the surface here and dares not discuss without risk of genuine social rejection. People go through their entire lives this way. Utah Valley is extremely Victorian, and they openly love it that way, hence the term Happy Valley. But it's not happy if you're gay, or liberal, or criticize the president in any way, or have a beard, or do activities on Sunday (which I don't do but recognize a citizen's right to)... - Gilgamesh 16:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, this isn't a forum guys, and should only be a discussion as to what information should be included on the Provo article. --UtahStizzle (talk) 20:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

POV

So I removed the POV tag. Any complaints? I don't think we have evidence to claim that it is a landmark case, or even that the findings are all that substantial. CoolGuy seems to be the only one who really disputes this, but hasn't said much recently. I think some discussion needs to occur before it should be added again. Comments? McKay 07:30, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Seems acceptable to me. --nihon 09:01, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely - this article hasn't been "disputed" for a long time. Raskol 19:32, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. bob rulz 05:51, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Crashutah

My website http:// www.crashutah.com is the best entertainment and restaurant guide for Utah County and Provo in particular. Check it out and let me know if you think it should be linked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.253.98.36 (talk • contribs)

You've already been warned once for spamming all of the Utah related pages with this. Please do not spam the talk pages with the same thing. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 01:04, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean spamming the talk pages? The message to me said to post my link to the discussion section so that other people could decide if it is worthwhile and should be added to the external links. You can't find any other page that has this specific entertainment and restaurant resource for Provo like CrashUtah does. I think if you visit the site you'll see this quite clear.

iProvo "nation's largest"

A few months ago, the statement that iProvo is the nation's largest municipal fiber to the home network was removed. Without this information, any mention of iProvo seems unnecessary. As far as I can tell, it is an accurate assertion (see [3] and IProvo) and explains why iProvo is notable. If it hadn't been specifically removed earlier, I would just add it, but I don't want to start a fight over it. Am I making too big of a deal over this?

If there are no objections over the next few days (whenever I come back to this article), I'll go ahead and add it back in. --Petiejoe 15:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

pro sports teams

I found the deleted edit, classified a hoax team. But you need to read the American Basketball Association-21st century page for proposed ABA teams and Provo is on the list!

<<BYU's men's and women's basketball gym, the Marriott Center, is also being used for when the Utah Basketball League Provo Mirage play at home.>> So far, I came upon a web link on the UBL, perhaps the league either folded or the Provo Mirage never materialized. [[4]]

Provo and nearby Orem has minor league sports, the Orem Owlz of the rookie level Pioneer League (however, this article has to do with Provo) and the semi-pro level Utah Lake Gulls are in Provo city limits, but at BYU ballpark. The Provo Strikers of the American Soccer League play in BYU stadium (I wasn't able to find any link, maybe the team folded some time ago) and the ECHL discussed a future ice hockey team in Provo (the Peaks Hockey Arena), while the Mirage should play in the BUY Basketball Arena.

Back in the mid 1980s was a North American Soccer League team, the Provo Strikers (NASL)- formerly the Fort Lauderdale Strikers was one of two major league teams in Utah at the time. The current soccer team the Salt Lake Real does a great job in soccer fanfare and game attendance, like the Utah Jazz NBA team in Salt Lake City. Provo and Salt Lake are good places to have a sports franchise, due to the climate and local economy.

BYU has a high-ranked college football team by no doubt, then how come after the 2002 winter olympics came rumors of a future NFL franchise in Utah? Provo was considered a likely site, but the league commission recommended a new, state-of-the-art site in downtown Salt Lake City or the Olympic ceremonial stadium in Park City (deemed too small and ideal for a semi-pro football team). The idea was turned down in 2004, but to get the Western States Football League is no problem for local football fans.+207.200.116.12 22:50, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

America's Freedom Festival at Provo

I'm trying to clean up the lead a bit, if you'd like to help look over Wikipedia:Lead section for guidelines.

I don't think the America's Freedom Festival at Provo is worth mentioning in the lead section, it should be merged into the main body of the article somewhere, but I'm not sure exactly where it belongs. Also, the second and third paragraphs could probably be merged.

Any ideas on where the Freedom Festival should go? --Lethargy 01:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I put it in the header, because I didn't know where else to put it. It seemed like one of Provo's claims to fame. I wouldn't be opposed to somewhere else, but I didn't know where would be better. McKay 15:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Church Membership Stats

A note on LDS membership stats (current version has a sentence about it in the "Demographics" section): first, the line "Though the ARDA estimates the total LDS church 2003 population at 5.5 million[3], while the LDS church puts its population at 11.9 million for the same time[4]" makes no sense, as ARDA collects stats for American churches only (their number for Roman Catholics is 67 million; about right for Catholics within the US but far short of the over 1 billion Catholics on Earth) but the official LDS statistic cited is world-wide. Moreover, even the most cursory inspection of the Church's main site and news articles about its membership statistics would turn up repeated references to there being "more members outside the United States than in," which fits nicely with the ARDA 5.5 million (US), official LDS 11.9 million (worldwide) stats.

Second, and perhaps more important: what on earth is this line doing in an article on Provo? I mean, I know the town is full of Mormons, but the article already links to the main church article; if it's meant to impugn either ARDA's reliability or the Church's own stats, this line does a very bad job of it. I recommend removing the line, and will do it myself if no one objects over the next few days. Lloannna 02:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the comment has nothing to do with this article and should be removed. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't meant as an impugnation, but an act of balancing out the comment of the active vs inactive. But you're right, now that I read it again, the edit was done poorly (and as was pointed out by Lloannna regionally misleading). So I'll remove both comments. McKay 15:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Copyrighted text?

Local discussion of national politics tends to fall within the spectrum of moderately conservative to arch-conservative thought, with a few leftists mostly represented by student groups or university professors I might be wrong, but I think this passage was lifted from the BYU section of a Princeton Review college guide. The one I had was in the vicinity of the year 2001. Someone might want to look into this. Daniel Leavitt 13:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

After reading this article a little more thoroughly I think it is in serious need of some administrative attention. Is there SOP for making this happen? Daniel Leavitt 14:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, there's a couple procedures, probably WP:BOLD and WP:CLEANUP. If you think the section is copyright violation, then be bold -- attribute, rewrite, or remove. If you think that the article is in need of some cleaning up, slap the {{cleanup}} tag on the top of the article and write on the talk page the things that are in need of attention. If you just want mention a couple of things, we'll see if we can make things better. McKay 15:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Recreation

I removed the "Recreation" section since all that was in it was "There's a mall." and then some vandalism. Gandalf (talk) 15:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Willow Creek School

Willowcreek School, listed in the Points of Interest section, is not a significant point of interest and does not meet Wikipedia's standards for items of significance. I hope no one minds me removing it. The school only opened up a year ago and has not any significant impact to Provo. If therapuetic schools are going to be listed there are three other similar schools in Provo that have had a much longer history with the city: Provo Canyon School, Heritage School and Discovery Academy. I am also removing the following line "The Provo Towne Centre, a shopping mall, operates in Provo. Second Nature Therapeutic Programs runs a boarding school in a former convalescent hospital down the street from the mall." This company is now located in Duchesne and again, I wonder about it being appropriate to include in anycase.

Heritage Web Solutions

Someone (I'm guessing an employee) has re-added information about Heritage Web Solutions to the "Local Companies of Interest" section. This is a company with only annual revenues of $8.2m. There are probably a number of auto shops and fast food restaurants with higher revenues than this. I fail to see how a one-time mention a year ago in Inc Magazine makes this a company of interest. For Provo, which is the major city of central Utah, and is full of growing companies, this little web hosting company is simply not notable. I doubt anyone reading an encyclopedia article about Provo really has any interest in a small web design / hosting company. Unless someone can post some good justifications about what makes this company notable in Provo, I will remove this. This information is just not notable. MoKo365 (talk)

If you read the references I just added to the article, Heritage has apparently been listed for the second year in a row in the Inc. 500. This doesn't happen all too often from what I've seen. The company employs nearly 200 people in Provo, as well, and the revenue (according to the sources) has gone up to $11.6 million. Seems worth a mention to me. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Nihonjoe, please be honest: are you an employee of Heritage Web Solutions? You seem to take an uncommon interest in any mention of the company on Wikipedia. Do any other Wikipedians agree with Nihonjoe? Your reference, by the way, is not for the Inc. 500, but the Inc. 5000. There also happen to be 5 companies (including Heritage) from Provo on that list. Why haven't you added all of them, if the Inc. list is some sort of standard of notability for companies in Provo? In fact, of the 5 Inc. 5000 companies in Provo, Heritage has the SECOND LOWEST revenue. 3 of the 5 companies have higher revenues--not only that, but they are all least TWICE as big as Heritage. Your arguments for notability are just not convincing. If a spot on the Inc. 5000 list is good enough for notability, then I think we should list all five companies. And in the context of an article about Provo, I think your section about Heritage is far too long, considering the small amount it contributes to the Provo economy. Using your standard for notability, I have changed the section describing Heritage to be a list of the five companies from the Inc. 5000 list, listed in order of revenue, highest to lowest. MoKo365 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC).

Famous people from Provo

Listen people, I don't know why in the heck you think Julianne Hough, Janice Kapp, and Perry Jack Paepke are notable, and I don't really care. What I do care about is the inconsiderate person who thought he would take it upon himself to say that Sally Ann Cavanaugh is not notable. She is from Provo, Utah, she is Alan Stanwyck's second wife, and by god that has to count for something. The next thing you know, someone is going to say that Judge Smails is not a notable member of Bushwood. 173.67.241.227 (talk) 03:43, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

First of all, please be civil when posting to this page (and any other talk page on Wikipedia). This is a collaborative project among millions of editors, so there are bound to be disagreements from time to time. If you would like Cavanaugh to be listed here, please provide several (at least 2-3) verifiable and reliable sources which show why she is notable on her own. Please note that notability can not be inherited from her husband, so unless she is notable on her own, she will not be listed here or anywhere else on WIkipedia (except perhaps on her husband's page if he has one). Thanks! ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 08:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

New Topics

This article seems to be a bit lacking. Some topics on areas such as media (TV, newspapers, etc.) would be a nice addition I think. --UtahStizzle (talk) 20:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to jump right in and add them. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok. I'm thinking about changing the 'Landmarks' topic to something along the lines of 'City Layout', and from there the Temple and BYU can be mentioned. I also think the information on the MTC should be simplified into one statement indicating that it is located in Provo. The additional info is already in its own respective article. Any objections? If not, I'll move along with it.--98.202.27.219 (talk) 05:12, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Temples

Recommends two sections (Provo Tabernacle and Provo Utah Temple) be merged into a single section since Provo Tabernacle is in process of being converted into Provo City Center Temple. Samuelsenwd (talk) 19:16, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Flag

Flag has recently been changed. 93.150.75.221 (talk) 14:13, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Noteable Residents

There are several residents listed for both Provo and Orem, for example LaVell Edwards and Marie Osmond. I know the towns border eachother but what are odds that all these people's homes actually straddle the border between the two? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.111.210.172 (talk) 01:05, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

• It's probably partly due to their fame in the area in general. Also, sometimes someone is born in one area, then lives in another later on. With this case, I'm not sure. --UtahStizzle (talk) 04:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

• I'd like to weigh in on this - the Notable People section seems to be filled with people who were in Provo only because they attended/worked at Brigham Young University. I assume that a "from . ." section should only reference a person who either was born, was raised in youth, or spent a significant portion of their lives in that area - just going to a school there doesn't make one a Provo-an any more than "sleeping in a garage makes one a Chevrolet", as the saying goes. What do other people think on this subject?? --Raymondwinn (talk) 16:57, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

• • The people listed in the section have spent a large portion of their lives in Provo, and most in the list continue to live there. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 17:04, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

It's my understand the Osmonds were not raised in Provo, but were raised in Ogden and moved to Provo later. 75.67.234.133 (talk) 20:48, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

• You are right, but the Provo folks really want to claim them as their own. I found that out the hard way. GetSomeUtah (talk) 09:58, 5 March 2016 (UTC)