Talk:Bibliography of Prem Rawat and related organizations

(Redirected from Talk:Prem Rawat/Bibliography)
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Faunus in topic Article content

Discussion

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What is this for? Are we now in the bibliography business? or editing articles? In any case, have fun if doing this makes you happy. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

If it is about having fun, please move this to a personal sandbox. If you want to make this a useful resource devoid of POV, please strictly list the sources without cherry picking what to quote from these sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
This is compiled from the references and footnotes sections of some of the articles in this category. I was surprised at how many important sources weren't included in any of those lists. This is an aid to editors researching the topic, and is also intended to make our citations more consistent with less re-typing. I stripped off all the quoted text, though I may have missed a stray quote. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:16, 7 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • Some of these items are already in templates, such as at Divine Light Mission#References. It may be easy to search-and-replace to swap the template elements for the table elements in a bulk operation. With a little more work we could mine the articles themselves for templated citations. Jossi's been very helpful in converting the refs to templates in these article in the past. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:43, 8 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

In mainspace?

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What is this doing in mainspace? What is the rationale for this? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:13, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

I object to many aspects of this "bibliography"
  1. If it is a bibliography, it should list published books and journals, as per other bibliographies. See Bibliography, and check two other persons in WP with biblios: Richard Nixon bibliography and Bibliography of Harry S. Truman.
  2. I object to the selective quotes from these sources
  3. Some of the "sources" listed in this "bibliography" are sources that will not pass the test of being reliable sources.
  4. This article violates previous agreements to reach consensus before doing major edits
  5. "His organizations" is misleading.

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

We shall remove all non-book and journals material from this list. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
The removal shall include primary sources such as DLM publications, court orders, and affidavits. There are literally thousands of speeches by Prem Rawat, not sure what is the point of listing them all. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

Re. "We shall..." - pluralis maiestatis? Please learn that Wikipedia is a community project. Anyway items can be moved to #Currently not retained in article namespace below, and then discussed, if there's a valid reason for non-inclusion.

Re. removal of primary sources. Bibliographies can - and typically do - include primary sources, no agreement on that one.

Re. quotes: I only included selected quotes where used as reference text for (another) item, or for sources in other languages, requiring translation (that is: I'd have the complete text translated preferably, but there are limitations of availability of the translation and/or copyright). The rest are official abstracts, publisher's summaries etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

"We shall" is a proposal. My objections remain as per arguments provided, in particular given the obvious lack of consensus and the bypassing of previous agreements. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Re. "...is a proposal": then there's currently no consensus for your proposal. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
And this "article" has consensus? You have got to be kidding. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

Please show me an example of a "bibliography" constructed as this one and that includes items that are not bibliographic material. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

Re "example ... constructed as this one" if you mean "sortable table" format, then (for instance) Köchel catalogue. I know of no edition of the K catalogue that is sortable along the lines of the Wikipedia sortable table format. I don't even know an edition of the K catalogue that lists both K1 and K6 numbers in the same table, etc. That's the advantage of the sortable table, things can be sorted out: if you're (for instance) not interested in Bhole Ji's Blue Aquarius record, then sort by type, and look through the range you're interested in. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:18, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
True, an album should rather be in a discography, than a bibliography. If the word mediagraphy were invented yet it would apply here. For the rest, I've seen bibliographies include all sorts of things, literally: everything that's published. For instance, also listing organisations like museums dedicated to the topic at hand etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:25, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
You are not answering my question. Show me a biblio article that has been constructed as per your "anything goes" criteria. Bibilio articles are about books and journals. Please read Bibliography. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:22, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
You are still not answering my question. I guess I will have to do it myself. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Your question is irrelevant. If Bibliography of Virginia Woolf (accidently only including primary sources) were the first of that kind in Wikipedia, nobody would be able to show you a previous example either. Give me a few months, and I'm sure I'll be able to turn up some things, if I accidently encounter them. No need for me to prove your point. If you have a point, prove it (without causing disruption of course), that nothing remotely like this exists or would be acceptable in Wikipedia. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
And stop your impatient impertinence, I'm typing as fast as I can, and clicking to find a few examples. If you have the answers to your questions, why'd you ask them in the first place? --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:35, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
I have made my arguments, that you have chosen to ignore for whatever reason. You claim consensus on an article that you have discussed with no one, and you call me impertinent? I have requested from the mediator to intervene. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

I didn't ignore your arguments. I ignored your question, that is the question that I would prove your point. Please do that work yourself, if you think it necessary. Please, without disruption: I insist on that point.

Re. "Some of the "sources" listed in this "bibliography" are sources that will not pass the test of being reliable sources" – then please list the ones you deem thus, and indicate why.

Re. ""His organizations" is misleading" – explain why you think that, please. It would be best to only list items relating to Rawat or his organizations if that is what is in the name of the article: I see none, currently, that don't belong. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

Bibliography of Prem Rawat and his organizations >> Bibliography of Prem Rawat and related organizations would solve this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:17, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Prem Rawat is not an organization: "... and related organizations" sounds a bit awkward to me. But you're the native English speaker. I think it too broad maybe also: e.g. for DLM I'd limit this bibliographic article to the period when it was Rawat's organization (not the Shri Hans period, nor the period when Rawat had no control over it any more in India). Question of scope. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Per WP:BRD. You where WP:BOLD in putting this in mainspace, I reverted per WP:BRD. Now we can discuss. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:13, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
For clarity, I inserted the doubted entries below in the #Currently not retained in article namespace section, so that we can see what we are talking about. For instance, I see no reason to remove the Hinduism Today article from the bibliography. It is used as a reference in at least one Rawat-related article. It gives some detail about Rawat's following in the far East, etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
I removed all material does not belong in a bibliography, as per numerous Bibliographies in Wikipedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:15, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
You still didn't prove your point: a vaguish as per numerous Bibliographies in Wikipedia simply doesn't work. It is also built on a reasoning that should be avoided per WP:ASR. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
  • The Wikipedia definition: A bibliography is a list, either indicative or comprehensive, of writings sharing a common factor: this may be a topic, a language, a period, or some other theme.
  • A great deal of material has been removed from this bibliography inappropriately. All of the works listed are writings that share a common topic. There is no justification for the deletions, which represent a considerable amount of work on the part of editors. I am going to revert the deletion. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

Questions: proposed MO

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So, this is the way] right? You have (a) not addressed the arguments presented, and (b) deleted numerous additions that I have made. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

To better understand the rationale for the criteria around which this bibliography has been constructed, here are some questions:

  1. What is the difference between this article and Prem_Rawat#Footnotes, Prem_Rawat#References?
  2. Given that we have had extensive discussions about specific sources, how does this article address these debates? Or is this a way to place a stake in the ground and bypass seeking consensus about sources?
  3. This article contains just a couple of published speeches of Prem Rawat. Should we work in listing each and every published speech?
  4. There are numerous newspaper and magazine articles that are not listed in this article. Should we work in listing each and every single one of them?

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

In general, see {{incompletelist}} which is included currently in the article: that implies that your questions may, at this point in time, not have a definite answer.

Anyway, when the bulk of the sources currently included in Prem_Rawat#References are included in Bibliography of Prem Rawat and his organizations, I suppose at least two things will happen:

  • A {{main}} template linking to the general bibliography is inserted under the section header of Prem_Rawat#References;
  • We have a close look whether some of the less essential bibliographic entries in Prem_Rawat#References are removed there. For instance, the Aagaard article has little added value to many other entries in Prem_Rawat#References, but in the general bibliography it is in its place I suppose, showing how in northern Europe things are approached.

I suppose two similar steps could, around the same time, be undertaken w.r.t. Divine Light Mission#References and Elan Vital (organization)#Bibliography

Reliability of sources should be judged w.r.t. the context of this article, which might be somewhat different from the context of other articles. For instance, primary sources in scarcely available editions make a bibliography complete, but would maybe be too far-fetched for other articles. And vice versa: e.g. the Chess article is used in the DLM article as the source for someone being a Rawat student: I think it too far-fetched for the general bibliography.

Re. speeches: at least a few prominent ones should be included here. I was still thinking (for instance) about the Colorado Satsang (included in Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?). It could be less. It could be more. Depends on whether someone has compelling reasons to include such entries here, and the consensus that builds around that. The internet has a few lists of these speeches. Cagan says they are well conserved, so yes: why not? Maybe also some by Durga Ji (Marolyn Rawat), they were published at the time by Rawat's publishing houses too, and that's her public image too, more than being a secretary and/or air hostess I suppose.

Which newspaper articles (and other items) we list in mainspace can be filtered below, in #Currently not retained in article namespace, #Raw list and #Doubtful. I propose we keep in the "raw list" what can be implemented in main namespace without reserve, the other two for sources lacking importance w.r.t. the subject (or for testing the sortable table format for those wanting to try that first), and/or somewhat obscure, respectively. The items in these two lists should only be moved to the article if a consensus develops nonetheless. Other operational methods for filtering and proposing entries are possible too I suppose, but I see no direct problems with the MO I propose here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

Still a general consideration about quotes, summaries etc in footnotes: there have been some wikipedia-wide discussions about this. I'm not a too big fan (e.g. in Prem Rawat reduction of the text quoted in footnotes is highly desirable imho). At the one side I'm waiting for a wikipedia-wide consensus to develop. On the other side I think the "collapsible" format I introduced in Bibliography of Prem Rawat and his organizations an acceptable solution, if used in a thoughtful way. The Prem Rawat article might benefit from it as a beneficial step in the right direction. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

  • Addressing some of Jossi's points, above: I think Francis has now re-added all of the material Jossi added after his purge. This list is far more inclusive than Prem_Rawat#Footnotes and Prem_Rawat#References, which are rather spotty. It is compiled from several articles and talk pages. This bibliography has nothing to do with WP:RS. It is simply a list of bibliographic resources concerning Prem Rawat and related organizations. WP readers can make up their own minds about the entries. We should prioritze our efforts with the most significant sources added first, to the extent that's practical. Note that s feature article in a newspaper may be more significant than a passing reference in a book. In any case, let's focus on building the list rather than on deleting content. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for your replies. Some comments:
  1. This bibliography has nothing to do with WP:RS A reminder to Will BeBack, that lists are articles in Wikipedia and are not exempted for compliance with core policies and guidelines
  2. Consensus building I see a mention of consensus building several times in the responses above, but it fails to discuss consensus building about the starting point (see original point 2 above). Please address this issue in your responses.
  3. Significant What is significant and what is not? Is a factually incorrect AP wire more significant than a scholar's opinion? Not accoring to WP:RS
I will start adding additional sources, mainly other newspaper articles not listed as well as other published magazine and other materials on the subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)Reply
1) What I meant is that the entries on this list do not have to qualify as reliable sources themselves. If we make representations about the entries, such as characterizing their contents, then we'd need reliable sources for that info. 2) I don't follow. Could you please restate your question? 3) I said, we should prioritize our efforts to ad the most significant sources first, "to the extent that's practical". It's not a formal thing, and if it makes no sense to you then ignore it and add (possibly) less significant items first. The main thing is to create a reasonably complete bibliography of the written materials about Prem Rawat and related organizations. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)Reply


Article name

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English-wise there is no problem with this
Simpler. Scope is explained in the article's lead

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

  Done: moved. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

Essay?

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Some of the sources are tagged as "essays in periodicals" when these are actually papers in peer reviewed journals. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

I have no preference. I thought "Essay" was more generic. I was thinking about the sort function of the table too, when I used the most generic name I could think of for all of them: I mean, they should come out grouped when clicking the sort icon. If "paper" is better English, fine for me. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

La Sicilia

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Discussion of use of the La Sicilia article as a source for other article content moved to Talk:Prem Rawat#From Talk:Bibliography_of_Prem_Rawat_and_related_organizations#La_Sicilia

[...] For inclusion in the Bibliography article we need the original title, not the complete text (nor the original one, nor the translation). --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

You have the original title, the publisher, and the date of publication: ''DIGNITY AND PROSPERITY FOR PEACE, La Sicilia, July 2nd, 2008. Only missing is page number, which I will submit. You asked for a translation, and I will provide as well. And finally, please do not refactor my comments. If you want to claim copyvio, you will need to remove all sources from the many subpages that we have created to present sources, and I do not think that is necessary. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

Did La Sicilia use an English title? --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

There ya go: Head: Dignità e Prosperità per la pace - Subhead: Prem Rawat al Teatro Massimo, ha lanciato un apello per la fratellanza nel mondo. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
Which translates to: Dignity and Prosperity for Peace: Prem Rawat at the Massimo theater raised a call for brotherhood in the world. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Reply

Others

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Additional sources that could be added:

  • Rawat, Prem (2002). "Peace Needs to be Felt;. United Nations Conference Centre (Bangkok, Thailand): The Prem Rawat Foundation. OCLC 170932035.
  • Rawat, Prem (2002). Words of Peace, the Message of Prem Rawat. The Prem Rawat Foundation. OCLC 123540285.
  • Richardson, James, Theory and Research on Today's "New Religions" (1978), SA. Sociological Analysis pp. 95-122 JSTOR
  • Anthony, Dick, The Sociology of Contemporary Religious Movements (1979), Annual Review of Sociology, pp. 75-89
  • McDermott, Robert, Indian Spirituality in the West: A Bibliographical Mapping (1975), Philosophy East and West, pp. 213-239, JSTOR
  • Jacobs, Janet, Hidden Truths and Cultures of Secrecy: Reflections on Gender and Ethnicity in the Study of Religion (2000), Sociology of Religion, pp. 433-441
  • Stauffer,, Robert, Bellah's "Civil Religion" (1975), Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, pp. 390-395

The Prem Rawat Foundation

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Sources related to The Prem Rawat Foundation

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)Reply

Bibliography of Prem Rawat and his organizations

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Table

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(transcluded from main namespace article:)

Legenda
  • Except in verbatim quotations (of titles etc.) Prem Rawat is always listed under that name in the columns below, whatever the dominant alternative name (Guru Maharaj Ji, Maharaji,...) at the time of the publication.
  • Click   icon to sort table according to entries in the column under it.
Author(s) Date Type Title Published in/by Place Other specifics
Rawat, Prem November 8, 1970 Public address Peace Bomb satsang And It Is Divine (transcript: 1972)
The Golden Age (transcript: 1978)
India, Delhi (in Hindi)
U.S. (1972)
Australia (1978)
[1][2][3][4]
November 9, 1970 Article (newspaper) Hindustan Times India [5]
November 10, 1970 Article (newspaper) Navbharat Times India (in Hindi) [6]
1970 Book (part) Guinness Book of World Records Sterling Publishing U.S. [7]
June 17, 1971 Article (newspaper) Hallelujah! The mini Guru, aged 13, cometh Evening Standard UK, London [8]
June 18, 1971 Article (newspaper) Worshippers greet the boy guru 'straight from Heaven' Daily Mirror UK, London p. 12[9]
Rawat, Prem June 1971 Public address Glastonbury Festival address Glastonbury Fayre (footage: 1972) UK, Glastonbury
UK (footage)
[10][11][12][13]
August 2, 1971 Article (magazine) Boy Guru Newsweek U.S. p. 72[14]
Allen, Henry September 14, 1971 Article (newspaper) Pretty Far-Out Little Dude The Washington Post U.S., Washington, D.C. p. B1[15]
Rawat, Prem September 17, 1971 Public address Colorado Satsang Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji? (transcript: 1973) U.S., Colorado [16]
1970s Magazine Divine Times Divine Light Mission U.S. [17]
1970s Periodical The Divine Times Divine Light Mission UK [18][19]
Rawat, Prem 1972 Book Reflections on an Indian Sunrise Divine Light Mission [20][21]
Ashokanand (mahatma)
Sandoz, Jaques (directors)
1972 Film (documentary) Satguru Has Come Shri Hans Films [3][22]
October 23, 1972 Article (newspaper) Pilgrims jet to see Divine Light The Times UK, London p. 12[19]
November 9, 1972 Article (newspaper) Guru's 'Bank' Seized Los Angeles Times (Reuters) U.S., Los Angeles p. A15[23]
November 19, 1972 Article (newspaper) India investigates guru's finances The Times (AP) UK, London p. 8[24]
November 27, 1972 Article (magazine) Junior Guru Time U.S. [25]
Daniel, Leon December 10, 1972 Article (newspaper) 15-Year-Old Hottest Star of Guru Circuit Los Angeles Times U.S., Los Angeles p. C8[26]
1970s Magazine And It Is Divine Shri Hans Productions
Divine Light Mission
U.S. [27]
Blue Aquarius
(Bhole Ji et al.)
1973 Album (music) Blue Aquarius Stax: Gospel Truth Series U.S. GTS-2725[28]
February 3, 1973 Article (newspaper) Guru's Pupil Slates Talk Syracuse Post-Standard U.S. p. 3[29]
Rawat, Prem April 1, 1973 Article (magazine)
Film
DUO proclamation and satsang Divine Times Vol. II No. 6 by Shri Hans Productions (DLM)
(film:) Shri Hans Films
U.S., Denver, Colorado [30]
August 1973
September 1973
Magazine Divine Light News Divine Light Mission Australia Vol. I, Nos. 1-3[31]
August 8, 1973 Article (newspaper) Guru Gets Testimonial And Some Pie in Face The New York Times U.S., New York p. 43[32]
August 8, 1973 Article (newspaper) 15-Year Old Guru Slapped in Face by Shaving Cream Pie Los Angeles Times (UPI) U.S., Los Angeles p. 2[33]
August 8, 1973 Article (newspaper) Guru Set For Honor, Gets Pie In Face Independent
Press-Telegram
(UPI)
U.S., Long Beach, California p. A-6[34]
September 3, 1973 Article (newspaper) Guru Maharaj Ji: Ulcer The Washington Post U.S., Washington, D.C. p. B7[35]
September 4, 1973 Article (newspaper) The 'Perfect Master' from India has an ulcer Stars and Stripes (AP) U.S. p. 6[36]
Carter, Malcolm N. September 23, 1973 Article (newspaper) Guru Keeps Track Of Subjects With Computer Great Bend Tribune (AP) U.S., Kansas p. 11[37]
Milner, Bart September 23, 1973 Article (newspaper) Casting some shadows on the movement of Divine Light The Times UK, London [38]
1973 Film Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji Shri Hans Productions U.S. [39]
Cameron, Charles
Davis, Rennie
Rawat, Prem
et al.
November 1973 Book Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji? Bantam Books U.S. [22]
Rawat, Prem
Griffin, Merv
November 28, 1973 TV show (interview) The Merv Griffin Show U.S. [40]
Morgan, Ted December 9, 1973 Article Oz in the Astrodome: Middle-class premies find Guru The New York Times Magazine U.S., New York Section 6, pp. 37–39, 84, 86, 88, 90, 92, 94, 96, 104[41]
Du Plessix Gray, Francine
Kelley, Ken
December 13, 1973 Article (magazine) Blissing out in Houston (du Plessix Gray)
Blackjack Love (Kelley)
The New York Review of Books Vol. 20 No. 20 U.S., New York pp. 36–43[42]
Winder, Gail
Horowitz, Carol
December 1973 Article (magazine) What's Behind the 15-Year-Old Guru Maharaj Ji? The Realist No. 97-C U.S., San Francisco, California pp. 1–5[43]
Latimer, Dean January 1974 Article (magazine) Who is Guru Maharaj Ji and why is he saying all these terrible things about God? Penthouse Vol. 5 No. 5 U.S. pp. 65–66[44]
Kelley, Ken January 19, 1974 Article (newspaper) Get Your Red-Hot Panaceas! The New York Times U.S., New York p. 31[45]
Du Plessix Gray, Francine
Kelley, Ken
Apter, Joan
et al.
January 24, 1974 Article (magazine) Knowledge of the Guru, replies to Joan Apter and to Nicholas B. Dirks, Charles R. D. Lindley, Leela A. Wood The New York Review of Books Vol. 20 Nos. 21 & 22 U.S., New York [46]
Kelley, Ken February 1974 Article (magazine) Over the hill at 16 Ramparts No. 12 U.S. pp. 40–44[47]
Goldsmith, Paul
Traum, Artie
February 1974 Article (magazine) Bliss and Bones in the Astrodome Crawdaddy U.S. pp. 62–65[48]
Adler, Dick February 23, 1974 Article (newspaper) TV Review: Videotape Explorers on Trail of a Guru Los Angeles Times U.S., Los Angeles p. B2[49]
Shamberg, Michael (dir.)
Rawat, Prem
Davis, Rennie
et al.
February 24, 1974 Film (documentary) Lord of the Universe Top Value Television U.S. [50]
O'Connor, John J. February 25, 1974 Article (newspaper) TV: Meditating on Young Guru and His Followers: Maharaj Ji Is Focus of P.B.S. Documentary: Astrodome Gathering Yields Splendid Show The New York Times U.S., New York p. 53[51]
Kelley, Ken March 1974 Article (magazine) An East Indian Teen-Ager Says He Is God Vogue U.S. [52]
Elman, Richard March 1974 Article (magazine) Godhead Hi-Jinx: Starring the Guru Maharaj Ji Creem U.S. p. 37-39[11]
March 1974
October 1979
Magazine The Golden Age Divine Light Mission
Duo Productions
Australia Vol. 1-55[53]
Levine, Richard March 14, 1974 Article (magazine) When The Lord of All The Universe Played Houston: Many are called but few show up Rolling Stone No. 156 U.S. pp. 36–50[54]
Gortner, Marjoe May 1974 Article (magazine) Who Was Guru Maharaj Ji? Just think of him as a spare tire Oui U.S. pp. 90–133[55]
Scheer, Robert June 1974 Article (magazine) Death of the Salesman: for rennie davis (model high school student, antiwar spokesman and chief proselytizer for guru maharaj ji) the media always meant the message Playboy U.S. pp. 107–108, 112, 236, 238-240[56]
Kelley, Ken July 1974 Article (magazine) I See The Light: In which a young journalist pushes a cream pie into the face of His Divine Fatness and gets his skull cracked open by two disciples Penthouse U.S. pp. 98–100, 137-138, 146, 148, 150-151[57]
Baxter, Ernie August 1974 Article (magazine) The multi-million dollar religion ripoff Argosy No. 380 U.S. pp. 72, 77-81[58]
Dart, John November 27, 1974 Article (newspaper) Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area[dead link] Los Angeles Times U.S., Los Angeles p. B2[59]
1974 Entry in encyclopedic resource Current Biography Yearbook: 1974, entry: "Maharaj Ji, Guru" H. W. Wilson Company U.S. p. 254 ff.[60]
Frazier, Deborah March 23, 1975 Article (newspaper) Growing Pile of Unpaid Bills Beneath Guru's Spiritual Bliss Sunday Journal and Star (UPI) U.S., Lincoln, Nebraska p. 11A[61]
March 24, 1975 Article (newspaper) Riches Called Goal of Divine Light Winnipeg Free Press (CP) U.S. [62]
April 1, 1975 Article (newspaper) Mother Ousts Young Guru as Playboy Los Angeles Times U.S., Los Angeles p. 2[63]
Belkind, Myron L. April 2, 1975 Article (newspaper) Guru's mother rejects him as religion chief Independent
Press-Telegram
(AP)
U.S., Long Beach p. 9[64]
April 9, 1975 Article (newspaper) Guru Tries to Take Control of Mission Ruston Daily Leader U.S. [65]
April 18, 1975 Article (newspaper) Court Halts Heiress' Money Gift To Guru Charleston Daily Mail (API) U.S. [66]
Frazier, Deborah July 14, 1975 Article (newspaper) Guru Maharaj Ji: Pizza, Sports Cars and Millions of Followers Mansfield News Journal (UPI) U.S. [67]
Rawat, Prem
et al.
1975 Book The Sayings of Guru Maharaj Ji Divine United Organization
Shri Sant Yogashram, Hans Marg
India, New Delhi Several volumes[68]
February 20, 1976 Article (newspaper) Maharaj Ji Wins Fight For Mission The Washington Post U.S., Washington, D.C. p. C7

[69]

Cornell, George W. March 5, 1976 Article (newspaper) Group Led by Teen Guru Toning Down Eastern Style Albuquerque Journal U.S. [70]
March 6, 1976 Article (newspaper) Spiritual group's claims, practices are changing Evening Capital (AP) U.S. [71]
Brown, Mick April 17, 1976 Article (magazine) Perfect Master and unholy squabbles: The Guru comes of age Street Life UK pp. 18–19[12]
Mishler, Bob
Frazier, Deborah (UPI: interviewer)
May 1976 Interview (magazine) Part of the mainstream The Golden Age No. 29 Australia p. 8 ff.[72]
Thurmond, Strom (U.S. Congress senator) July 20, 1976 US Congressional Record Prem Rawat's Inspirational Message to the United States Citizen's Congress US Congress U.S., Washington, D.C. [73]
Messer, Jeanne 1976 Essay in book Guru Maharaj Ji and the Divine Light Mission The New Religious Consciousness by Charles Y. Glock and Robert N. Bellah (eds.), University of California Press U.S., Berkeley, California pp. 52–72[74][75]
1977–1980s Magazine (quarterly) Élan Vital Divine Light Mission U.S. ISSN 0195-2145[76]
October 19, 1977 Article (newspaper) Guru Maharaj Ji becomes a citizen of the U.S. Rocky Mountain News U.S., Denver, Colorado [77]
Como, Don (dir.)
Donovan (music)
Davis, Rennie
Rawat, Prem
et al.
1977 Film (part) Aliens from Spaceship Earth U.S. [78]
Stoner, Carroll
Parke, Jo Anne
1977 Book (part) All Gods Children: The Cult Experience - Salvation Or Slavery? Chilton U.S. ISBN 0-8019-6620-5[79]
Foss, Daniel A.
Larkin, Ralph W.
1978 Essay in periodical Worshiping the Absurd: The Negation of Social Causality among the Followers of Guru Maharaj Ji Sociological Analysis Vol. 39 No. 2 by Association for the Sociology of Religion U.S. doi:10.2307/3710215, pp. 157-164[80]
Rawat, Prem 1978 Book The Living Master: quotes from Guru Maharaj Ji Divine Light Mission U.S., Denver [21][81]
Collier, Sophia 1978 Book (autobiography) Soul Rush: The Odyssey of a Young Woman of the '70s William Morrow & Co. U.S., New York ISBN 0-688-03276-1[82]
Pilarzyk, Thomas 1978 Essay in periodical The Origin, Development, and Decline of a Youth Culture Religion: An Application of Sectarianization Theory Review of Religious Research Vol. 20 No. 1 by Religious Research Association U.S. pp. 23–43[83]
1978
2001
Book (part) Religious Requirements and Practices of Certain Selected Groups: A Handbook for Chaplains
Army Pamphlet 165-13
U.S. Department of the Army
Kirchner Associates
(2001:) The Minerva Group
U.S. (2001:) ISBN 0-89875-607-3 p. II-5 ff.[84]
Forster, Mark January 12, 1979 Article (newspaper) Firm Loyalty: Guru's Sect: Misgivings in Malibu
Malibu Guru Maintains Following Despite Rising Mistrust of Cults
Los Angeles Times U.S., Los Angeles p. A1, 3,...[85]
Mishler, Bob
Tesler, Gary
et al.
February 12, 1979 Interview (radio) Bob Mishler Radio Interview KOA radio station U.S., Denver, Colorado [86][87]
Downton, James V., Jr. July 1979 Book (monography) Sacred journeys: The conversion of young Americans to Divine Light Mission Columbia University Press U.S., Columbia ISBN 0-231-04198-5[88]
Kemeny, Jim 1979 Essay in periodical Comment: On Foss, Daniel A. and Ralph W. Larkin. 1978. "Worshiping the Absurd: The Negation of Social Causality among the Followers of Guru Maharaj Ji." Sociological Analysis 39, 2: 157-164 Sociological Analysis Vol. 40 No. 3 by Association for the Sociology of Religion U.S. pp. 262–264[89]
Nelson, G. K. 1979 Essay in periodical A Comment on Pilarzyk's Article "The Origin, Development and Decline of a Youth Culture Religion" (RRR, Fall, 1978) Review of Religious Research Vol. 21 No. 1 U.S. pp. 108–109[90]
Pilarzyk, Thomas 1979 Essay in periodical The Cultic Resilience of the Divine Light Mission: A Reply to Nelson Review of Religious Research Vol. 21 No. 1 U.S. pp. 109–112[91]
Price, Maeve 1979 Essay in periodical The Divine Light Mission as a social organization The Sociological Review Vol. 27 UK, Keele, Staffordshire pp. 279–296[92]
Galanter, Marc
Buckley, P.
1979 Essay in periodical Mystical Experience, spiritual knowledge, and a contemporary ecstatic religion British Journal of Medical Psychology No. 52 UK pp. 281–289[93]
Davis, Ivor December 19, 1979 Article (newspaper) Malibu opposes plan to build heliport for Divine Light guru The Times UK, London p. 12[94]
Rawat, Prem 1980 Book Light Reading Divine Light Mission U.S., Miami Beach [21][95]
Rudin, James A.
Rudin, Marcia R.
June 1980 Book (part) Prison or Paradise?: The New Religious Cults Fortress Press U.S., Philadelphia ISBN 0-8006-0637-X
p.63-65[96]
Robbins, Thomas
Anthony, Dick
1980 Essay in periodical The Limits of 'Coercive Persuasion' as an Explanation for Conversion to Authoritarian Sects Political Psychology Vol. 2 No. 2 by International Society of Political Psychology U.S., New York pp. 22–37[97]
Stones, C. R.
Philbrick, J. I.
1980 Essay in periodical Purpose in Life in South Africa: A Comparison of American and South African Beliefs Psychological Reports Vol. 47 South Africa pp. 739–742[98]
Aagaard, Johannes 1980 Article (periodical) Who Is Who In Guruism? Update: A Quarterly Journal on New Religious Movements Vol. IV No. 3 by Dialogcentret Denmark [99]
Kriegman, Daniel 1980 Book (part) A Psycho-social Study of Religious Cults From the Perspective of Self Psychology, Appendix A: "The Guru Mahara Ji Group: An experiential description: the journey to God" Boston University U.S. Doctoral dissertation
pp. 164–188
references: pp. 218–220
[100]
Downton, James V., Jr. December 1980 Essay in periodical An Evolutionary Theory of Spiritual Conversion and Commitment: The Case of Divine Light Mission Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion Vol. 19 No. 4 U.S.
UK
ISSN 0021-8294
pp. 381–396[101]
Lammers, Jos February 14, 1981 Article (magazine) Het concern van Guru Maharaj ji: Vijf jaar zakenman in dienst van de verlichting Haagse Post Vol. 68 No. 7 (in Dutch) Netherlands, The Hague pp. 48–53[102]
May 22, 1981 Article (newspaper) 1-Year Trial OKd for Sect's Helipad Los Angeles Times U.S., Los Angeles p. F6[103]
Godfrey (justice) October 19, 1981 Court decision Dotter v. Maine Employment Sec. Commission Supreme Judicial Court of Maine U.S., Maine Case 435 A.2d 1368[104]
McGuire, Meredith B. 1981
20025
Book (part) Religion: the Social Context Ch. 5 "The Dynamics of Religious Collectivities", section "How Religious Collectivities Develop and Change", sub-section "Organizational Transformations" Wadsworth U.S. ISBN 0-534-00951-4
5ISBN 0-534-54126-7
p. 175[105]
Robbins, Thomas
Anthony, Dick
February 1982 Essay in periodical Deprogramming, Brainwashing and the Medicalization of Deviant Religious Groups Social Problems Vol. 29 No. 3. by Society for the Study of Social Problems
University of California Press
U.S. pp. 283-297[106]
Brown, Chip February 15, 1982 Article (newspaper) Parents Versus Cult: Frustration, Kidnaping, Tears; A Question of Will: Law-Abiding Couple ... Who Became Kidnapers to Rescue Daughter from Her Guru The Washington Post U.S., Washington, D.C. p. A1[87]
Schwartz, Lita Linzer
Kaslow, Florence W.
June 7, 1982 Essay in periodical The Cult Phenomenon: Historical, Sociological, and Familial Factors Contributing to Their Development and Appeal Marriage & Family Review Volume 4 Issue 3-4
Haworth Press
U.S. ISSN 0149-4929
pp. 3–30[107]
Robbins, Thomas
Anthony, Dick
June 7, 1982 Essay in periodical Cults, Culture, and Community Marriage & Family Review Volume 4 Issue 3-4
Haworth Press
U.S. ISSN 0149-4929
pp. 57–79[108]
Ottenberg, Donald J. June 7, 1982 Essay in periodical Therapeutic Community and the Danger of the Cult Phenomenon Marriage & Family Review Volume 4 Issue 3-4
Haworth Press
U.S. ISSN 0149-4929
pp. 151–173[109]
Kranenborg, Reender 1982 Book (part) Oosterse Geloofsbewegingen in het Westen Netherlands (in Dutch) ISBN 90-210-4965-1[4]
Schnabel, Paul 1982
(2007)
Book (part) Tussen stigma en charisma: nieuwe religieuze bewegingen en geestelijke volksgezondheid Van Loghum Slaterus
Digital library for Dutch literature
Netherlands
(in Dutch)
ISBN 90-6001-746-3, p. 32, p. 53, p. 99, 101-102, p. 142[110]
October 6, 1983 Article (periodical) Whatever Happened to Guru Maharaj Ji? Hinduism Today by Himalayan Academy U.S. ISSN 0896-0801[111]
Lans, Jan M. van der
Derks, Frans
1984 Essay in book Subgroups in Divine Light Mission Membership: A Comment on Downton Of Gods and Men: New Religious Movements in the West by Eileen Barker, ed.
Mercer University Press
U.S., Macon, GA ISBN 0-86554-095-0 pp. 303-308[112]
Chagnon, Roland January 1985 Book (part) Trois nouvelles religions de la lumière et du son: la Science de la spiritualité, Eckankar, la Mission de la lumière divine Paulines
Médiaspaul (in French)
Canada, Montréal
France, Paris
ISBN 2-89039-985-0[113][114]
Kriegman, Daniel
Solomon, L.
April 1985 Essay in periodical Cult groups and the narcissistic personality: The offer to heal defects in the self International Journal of Group Psychotherapy Vol. 35 No. 2 U.S. pp. 239–261[115]
Pasternak, Judy July 7, 1985 Article (newspaper) Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Use Los Angeles Times U.S., Los Angeles p. 1[116]
Melton, J. Gordon 1986rev Entry in encyclopedic resource Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America, entry: "Divine Light Mission" Garland U.S., New York
UK, London
ISBN 0-8240-9036-5, pp. 141–145[21]
Lans, Jan M. van der
Derks, Frans
June 14, 1986 Essay in periodical Premies Versus Sannyasins Update: A Quarterly Journal on New Religious Movements Vol. X No. 2 by Dialogcentret Denmark [117]
DuPertuis, Lucy 1986 Essay in periodical How People Recognize Charisma: The Case of Darshan in Radhasoami and Divine Light Mission[dead link] Sociological Analysis: A Journal in the Sociology of Religion Vol. 47 No. 2 by Association for the Sociology of Religion U.S., Chicago ISSN 0038-0210
pp. 111-124[118]
Sharma, Arvind 1986 Essay in book New Hindu Religious Movements in India New Religious Movements and Rapid Social Change by James A. Beckford
Unesco/Sage Publications
UK, London ISBN 0-8039-8003-5, p. 224[119]
Galanter, Marc May 4, 1989
19992
Book (part) Cults: Faith, Healing and Coercion Oxford University Press U.S. ISBN 0-19-505631-0
2ISBN 0-19-512369-7
2ISBN 0-19-512370-0
[120][121]
Tucker, Ruth A. 1989
1991
2004
Book (part) Another Gospel: alternative religions and the new age movement (1989)
Strange Gospels: a comprehensive survey of cults, alternative religions and the New Age movement (1991)
Another Gospel: Cults, Alternative Religions, and the New Age Movement (2004)
Academie Books (1989)
Zondervan (1989, 2004)
Marshall Pickering, Harpercollins (1991)
U.S. (1989, 2004)
UK (1991)
ISBN 0-310-40440-1 (1989)
ISBN 0-551-02277-9 (1991)
ISBN 0-310-25937-1 (2004)
p. 320, p. 364-365[122]
Björkqvist, Kaj 1990 Essay World-rejection, world-affirmation, and goal displacement: some aspects of change in three new religious movements of Hindu origin Encounter with India: Studies in Neohinduism[permanent dead link] (Nils G. Holm, ed.)
Åbo Akademi
Finland ISBN 951-649-731-4, pp. 79-99[123]
McIlwain, Doris J. F. 1990
June 2006
Book (part) Impatient for paradise: a rites of passage model of the role of the psychological predispositions in determining differential openness to involvement in new religious movements University of Sydney
Sydney eScholarship Repository
Australia, Sydney PhD Doctorate[124]
Melton, J. Gordon 1991
(March 19992)
(2008)
Entry in encyclopedic resource Religious Leaders of America, entry: "Guru Maharaj Ji" Gale; 2Gale Group
(2008:) Biography Resource Center
U.S., Michigan pp. 285–286.
2ISBN 0-8103-8878-2[125]
Juergensmeyer, Mark 1991
1996
Book (part) Radhasoami Reality: The Logic of a Modern Faith Princeton University Press U.S. ISBN 0-691-07378-3
ISBN 0-691-01092-7
pp. 206–207[126]
Mangalwadi, Vishal
Hoeksema, Kurt
19922 Book (part) The world of gurus: a critical look at the philosophies of India’s influential gurus and mystics. Cornerstone Press U.S., Chicago ISBN 0-940895-03-X (revised edition), pp. 137–138[127]
Melton, J. Gordon (Project Director)
Lewis, James R.
et al.
1993 Book (part) Religious Requirements and Practices of Certain Selected Groups: A Handbook for Chaplains The Institute for the Study of American Religion U.S. chapter on Sikh/Sant Mat Groups, section: Elan Vital[128]
Barbour, John D. 1994 Book (part) Versions of Deconversion: Autobiography and the Loss of Faith University of Virginia Press U.S. ISBN 0-8139-1546-5
p. 170 ff.[129]
Gest, Alain
et al.
December 22, 1995 Report (government) N° 2468: Rapport Fait au nom de la commission d'enquête sur les sectes, Ch. I.B: "Un phénomène difficile à mesurer" National Assembly, Parliamentary Commission on Cults (1995) (in French) France p. 14 ff. [130]
Melton, J. Gordon (ed.)
5Shepard, Leslie (ed.)
19964
(November 20005)
(2008)
Entry in encyclopedic resource Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology, entry: "Maharaj Ji, Guru" Gale; 5Thomson Gale
(2008:) Biography Resource Center
U.S. 4p. 803
5ISBN 0-8103-8570-8[131]
Winter, Mark
et al
July 17, 1996 Magazine (special edition) The Divine Times: Special Edition July 17, 1996 [132]
Scheer, Robert April 1, 1997 Article (newspaper) How I Was Stood Up by the Venusians: Even a brief encounter with a cult's absurdity reveals its power to attract Los Angeles Times U.S., Los Angeles p. 7[133]
Brauns, John
et al.
1997– Web site Ex-Premie.org [134][135][136][137][138][139][140][141]
Jones, Rebecca January 30, 1998 Article (newspaper) Former Guru on a Different Mission Rocky Mountain News U.S., Denver, Colorado [134]
Lewis, James R. November 1, 1998
22005
Entry in encyclopedic resource Cults 1[in America]: A Reference Handbook, entries "Elan Vital (Divine Light Mission)" and "Maharaji (b. 1957)" ABC-Clio, Contemporary World Issues series U.S. ISBN 1-57607-031-X
2ISBN 1-85109-618-3
pp. 84-85, 121-122, 286-287, 307-308[142]
Richardson, James T. 1998 Entry in encyclopedic resource Encyclopedia of Religion and Society (William H. Swatos, Jr., ed.), entry: "Divine Light Mission" AltaMira Press
Sage publications
U.S.
UK
India
ISBN 0-7619-8956-0, p. 141[143]
Melton, J. Gordon 1999 Essay Brainwashing and the Cults: The Rise and Fall of a Theory in forthcoming The Brainwashing Controversy: An Anthology of Essential Documents CESNUR Italy [144]
Abgrall, Jean-Marie 2000 Book (part) Soul Snatchers: The Mechanics of Cults U.S., New York Algora Publishing ISBN 1-892941-04-X p. 285[145]
Rhodes, Ron 2001 Book (part) The Challenge of the Cults and New Religions: The Essential Guide to Their History, Their Doctrine, and Our Response Zondervan U.S. ISBN 0-310-23217-1
pp. 32, 170[146]
Barrett, David V. 2001
May 2003
Book (part) The New Believers: Sects, 'Cults' and Alternative Religions Cassell UK ISBN 0-304-35592-5
ISBN 1-84403-040-7
p. 65; Part Two: Alternative Religions & Other Groups, Ch. 14: Eastern Movements in the West, Elan Vital, p. 325-329[147]
Kent, Stephen A. October 2001 Book (part) From Slogans to Mantras: Social Protest and Religious Conversion in the Late Vietnam War Era Syracuse University Press U.S. ISBN 0-8156-2923-0
ISBN 0-8156-2948-6[148]
Hassan, Steve
et al.
2001– Web page Elan Vital Steven Alan Hassan's Freedom of Mind Center U.S. [135]
Macgregor, John August 31, 2002 Article (magazine) Blinded by the Light Good Weekend Australia, Sydney pp. 38–42[136]
Geaves, Ron 2002
March 2004
Essay From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital and Beyond: an Exploration of Change and Adaptation 2002 International Conference on Minority Religions, Social Change and Freedom of Conscience at University of Utah
(2004:) Nova Religio: The Journal of Alternative and Emergent Religions Vol. 7 No. 3
U.S., Salt Lake City
(2004:) U.S.
(2004:) pp. 45–62[139]
Rawat, Prem
et al.
2003– TV series Words of Peace South America
North America
Europe
Satellite
[149][150]
Rawat, Prem 2003 Book Clarity The Prem Rawat Foundation U.S. ISBN 0-9740627-1-5[151]
2003 Essay "Premies" Complain to Google of "Ex-Premie.org" site Chilling Effects U.S. [138]
2003-07 Entry in encyclopedic resource The Houghton Mifflin Dictionary of Biography, entry: "Maharaj Ji" Houghton Mifflin U.S. ISBN 0-618-25210-X
p. 994[152]
Jackson, Sally March 11, 2004 Article (newspaper) Court lets 'cult' gag journalist The Australian Australia p. 21[153]
O’Regan, Mick (host)
Macgregor, John
et al.
March 18, 2004 Interview (radio) Suppression Orders & the Media The Media Report on ABC Radio National Australia [154]
Thomas, Hedley April 24, 2004 Article (newspaper) Peace at a price The Courier-Mail Australia, Brisbane p. 35[155]
November 29, 2004 Press release Words of Peace by Prem Rawat receives TV Award in Brazil[permanent dead link] tprf.net Press Room by The Prem Rawat Foundation U.S. [156]
Rawat, Prem
Wolf, Burt (interviewer)
2005 Interview (DVD) Inner Journey: A Spirited Conversation About Self-discovery The Prem Rawat Foundation U.S. OCLC 85767576
ASIN B000EDUGI4[157]
Rawat, Prem May 17, 2005 Public Address Maharaji at Thamamssat University Wikisource (transcript: 2006) Thailand, Bangkok [158]
June 30, 2005 Article (newspaper) US names June 16 after Indian. Times of India India [159]
2006 Web page About Us Raj Vidya Kender India [160]
Geaves, Ron 2006 Essay in periodical Globalization, charisma, innovation, and tradition: An exploration of the transformations in the organisational vehicles for the transmission of the teachings of Prem Rawat (Maharaji) Journal of Alternative Spiritualities and New Age Studies Vol. 2 by Alternative Spiritualities and New Age Studies Association UK ISBN 978-1-4196-2696-8
pp. 44–62[161]
Mather, George
Nichols, Larry A.
Schmidt, Alvin J.
August 1, 2006 Entry in encyclopedic resource Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions: Revised and Updated Edition, entry "Elan Vital / Divine Light Mission" Zondervan U.S. ISBN 0-310-23954-0[140]
Geaves, Ron October 30, 2006 Essay in book From Guru Maharaj Ji to Prem Rawat: Paradigm Shifts over the Period of Forty Years as a "Master" (1966-2006) Introduction to New and Alternative Religions in America by Eugene V. Gallagher and W. Michael Ashcraft (eds.), Vol. IV: Asian Traditions, Greenwood Publishing Group US ISBN 0-275-98712-4
pp. 63–84[162]
December 20, 2006 Newsletter (digital) Prem Rawat’s “Words of Peace” Receives Brazilian TV Award Inspire by The Prem Rawat Foundation U.S. [163]
Cagan, Andrea January 16, 2007 Book (biography) Peace is Possible: The Life and Message of Prem Rawat Mighty River Press U.S. ISBN 0-9788694-9-4
OCLC 123014238[164]
Mendick, Robert May 31, 2007 Article (newspaper) Cult leader gives cash to Lord Mayor appeal[dead link] Evening Standard UK, London p. 4[165]
Rawat, Prem
et al.
June 1, 2007 Public address Prem Rawat at Guildhall, London The Prem Rawat Foundation (DVD release) UK, London [166]
Rossiter, Joe November 25, 2007 Article (newspaper) Patrick Halley: Outgoing reporter lived colorful life Detroit Free Press U.S., Detroit [167]
Mendick, Robert November 30, 2007
December 2, 2007
Article (newspaper) Guru followers asked to target Gandhi party Evening Standard
Gulf Times
UK, London
Qatar, Doha
[168]
Rawat, Prem
Robles, Marta (interviewer)
2007 Interview (DVD) Journey Within: a conversation between journalist Marta Robles and Prem Rawat, Barcelona, Spain The Prem Rawat Foundation [169]
Bromley, David G. 2007 Book (part) Teaching New Religious Movements Aar Teaching Religious Studies Series by American Academy of Religion U.S. ISBN 0-19-517729-0[170]
Metz, Cade February 6, 2008 Article (magazine) Wikipedia ruled by 'Lord of the Universe' The Register UK [141]
Finch, Michael 2009 Book Without the Guru: How I Took My Life Back After Thirty Years BookSurge Publishing U.S. ISBN 1-4392-4504-5

ISBN 978-1-4392-4504-0

Currently not retained in article namespace

edit
Author(s) Date Type Title Published in/by Place Other specifics
Shorman, Richard 1973-10-07 Article (newspaper) Chess Hayward Daily Review U.S. [171]
Maharaj Charan Singh
Rawat, Prem
1991 Book The gist of Sant Mat: The path of the saints Radha Soami Society Beas-America
Hutchinson
OCLC 42001850[172]
Home, Stewart Web page Julia Callan-Thomson: Stewart Home's Hippie Mamma Stewart Home website UK, London [173]
  • the 1991 Gist of Sant Mat booklet: is it Rawat's (as worldcat seems to indicate)? Or confusion with Maharaj Charan Singh, see these two entries at DirectTextbook.com: [3] [4]? Or are that two different publications, one with 8 pages (Rawat's) and one with 6 pages (Charan Singh's)? --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)Reply
FYI: The Worldcat entry for the book uses information from the UCSB library catalog. I contacted the reference department and they checked their copy and found that the entry was in error. The actual author is Maharaj Charan Singh, not Prem Rawat or Guru Maharaj Ji. I was told that they will fix it in their catalog, and perhaps Worldcat will someday be corrected too.   Will Beback  talk  22:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)Reply
tx! Not sure whether this should make us approach worldcat data with somewhat more suspicion, or whether this is an occasional one-off error that could happen to anyone. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)Reply
They simply compile library databases, and I doubt they check the provided information. Librarians are usually sticklers for accuracy. Interestingly, UCSB listed the book as uathored by "Guru Maharaj Ji", which Worldcat presumably modernized to "Prem Rawat", so they do massage the data a bit. The confusion has carried over to Amazon, which also lists the same title with two authors. So much trouble for an eight-page pamphlet!   Will Beback  talk  10:22, 29 January 2009 (UTC)Reply

Raw list

edit
  • "Newsmakers" Los Angeles Times; Mar 23, 1975; pg. 2
  • "THE NATION" Los Angeles Times Mar 25, 1975 pg. A2
  • "Guru Tries to Take Control of Mission" in The Ruston Daily Leader, April 9, 1975:
  • "Young Guru's Mother Replaces Him" Los Angeles TimesApr 12, 1975; pg. A2
  • "LEADER OWNS LUXURY CARS: Teen-Age Gurus Sect Grosses $3.78 Million" in Los Angeles Times April 10, 1976, pg. A27
  • "Round and About" The Vidette Messenger. Valparaiso, Indiana, October 25, 1973
  • ALLEN, "A LOOK BACK AT THE '70S" HENRY ALLEN, Los Angeles Times Dec 16, 1979; p. K30
  • AP "Boy Guru Suspected of Smuggling", AP, Sat., Oakland Tribune, Aug. 25, 1973
  • AP "Gifts for a guru". AP, THE STARS AND STRIPES November 15, 1972. p.4
  • AP "Snowballing Movement Centers On Teen-Age Guru From India", AP, THE LAWTON CONSTITUTION-MORNING PRESS, Sunday, July 29, 1973
  • AP "The 'Perfect Master' from India has an ulcer", AP, THE STARS AND STRIPES September 4, 1973 p. 6
  • AP "Investigation under way into Guru's business activities" AP Jun 24, 1974 GREELEY (Colo.) TRIBUNE
  • Axel Michaels, Barbara Harshav. Hinduism: Past and Present. 2004 Princeton University Press, p. 23. ISBN 0691089523
  • Bearak "Miami's startled elite wish the guru, in short, a pleasant stay", By Barry Bearak, Knight-Ridder Service, July 30, 1977. INDEPENDENT PRESS TELEGRAM (Long Beach, CA) A-11
  • Beckford, Of Gods and Men 1983: 195; Langone, 1995 :41
  • Beckford, James A. (1986). New religious movements and rapid social change. Thousand Oaks: Sage Publications. ISBN 0-8039-8003-5.
  • Beit-Hallahmi, Benjamin The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Active New Religions, Sects, and Cults, (1997), ISBN 0-8239-1505-0
  • Blau, Eleanor “Guru's Followers Cheer 'Millennium' in Festivities in Astrodome", by Eleanor Blau, New York Times, November 12, 1973
  • Bromley, David G. and Anson D. Shupe, Jr. Strange Gods: The Great American Cult Scare Beacon Press, Boston 1982
  • Bowker, John (Ed.), The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions, Oxford University Press, New York (1997) ISBN 0-19-213965-7
  • Carrol, Peter N. Nothing Happened: The Tragedy and Promise of America in the 1970s, Holt, Rinehart and Winston (1982), ISBN 0030583195
  • Carter, Malcolm N. (AP). "There are many evaluations of Guru Maharaj Ji" in Greeley Tribune. Colorado: September 26, 1973, p. 5-A.
  • CARTER "The Guru Who Minds His Mother", MALCOLM N. CARTER. Associated Press THE STARS AND STRIPES, November 4, 1973 Page A6
  • BBB Wise Giving Alliance. Charity report
  • Chryssides, George D., Historical Dictionary of New Religious Movements, Scarecrow Press (2001) ISBN 0-8108-4095-2
  • Clarence Lewis Barnhart, Sol Steinmetz, Robert K. Barnhart. The Second Barnhart Dictionary of New English. Barnhart Books, 1980, ISBN 0060101547, p. 411
  • Clarke, Peter B. (ed). The New Evangelists: Recruitment, Method and Aims of New Religious Movements. London, Ethnographics, 1987, ISBN 0905788605, pg. 10 to 14. Quoted in: Adherents.com, entry Divine Light Mission
  • Colorado Secretary of State, Business Center.
  • Contact Info - Broadcasts
  • Conversation with Prem Rawat, Available online. (Retrieved January 2006)
  • Conway, Flo & Siegelman, Jim. Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change. Stillpoint Press, New York, 1995, 2nd ed., p. 361
  • CORNELL "Guru's cult changing style" GEORGE CORNELL, AP Religion Writer
  • CRUGER "The Mini-Guru: Discourse on Maharaj Ji is scheduled in Wiesbaden" J. KING CRUGER, February 3, 1973 THE STARS AND STRIPES Page 9
  • Dalton, Robert P. "Guru returns to India to overthrow mother", Associated Press Writer, April 9 1975 GREELEY (Colo.) TRIBUNE
  • Dalton "The Guru's Wife Is Another Devotee", Robert P. Dalton, AP Staff Writer, Oakland Tribune. May 23, 1974.
  • Davis, Tom. "Primo premie and the Divine Light 'Kid'" in Bugle-American. April 1974, pp. 36-43
  • Divine United Organization (DUO). Hans Jayanti (2000). New Delhi. (Book published in commemoration of the 100th anniversary of Shri Hans' birth)
  • Drury, Michael, The Dictionary of the Esoteric: 3000 Entries on the Mystical and Occult Traditions, pp.75-6, (2002), Sterling Publishing Company, ISBN 1-842-93108-3
  • DUO "Hans Jayanti" (2000), pp.24-37. DUO, New Delhi, Book published in commemoration of the 100th anniversary of Hans Ji Maharaj's birth by Prem Rawat's Indian organization.
  • Edwards, Linda (2001). A brief guide to beliefs: ideas, theologies, mysteries, and movements. Louisville, Ky: Westminster John Knox Press. ISBN 0-664-22259-5.
  • Elan Vital FAQs - About Elan Vital, Inc. Available online (Retrieved May, 2006)
  • Enroth, Ronald. Youth, Brainwashing, and the Extremist Cults Zondervan 1977
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  • Geaves, Ron, "From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital and Beyond: An Exploration of Change and Adaptation", Nova Religio The Journal of Alternative and Emergent Religions, March 2004, Vol. 7, No. 3, Pages 45-62.
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  • Greenfield, Robert. The Spiritual Supermarket. Saturday Review Press/E. P. Dutton & Co. Inc, New York. 1975 ISBN 084150367
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  • Kandell "Five sect leaders in Chile sent to desert prison camp.", Jonathan Kandell, New York Times, March 24, 1974
  • Keim, Tony. "Police block drive-in protest against guru", Courier Mail, Australia, September 4, 2002. Web version at rickross.com
  • Khalsa "New Religious Movements Turn to Worldly Success", Kirpal Singh Khalsa, Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Vol. 25, No. 2 (Jun 1986), pp. 233–247
  • KILDAY "Houston's Version of Peace in Our Time" GREGG KILDAY, Los Angeles Times Nov 25, 1973 p. S18
  • Kilday, "Under the Astrodome: Maharaj Ji – The Selling of a Guru", Gregg Kilday, Los Angeles Times, Nov 13, 1973
  • Kopkind, Andrew. The Thirty Years' Wars: Dispatches and Diversions of a Radical Journalist, Verso, United States, 1995, ISBN 1859840965 p. 234
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  • LANDON "Guru's Followers Meet Here Nightly" By SUSAN LANDON, ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL , January 12, 1974
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  • Larson, Bob (2004). Larson's Book of World Religions and Alternative PUBLISHER: Tyndale House Publishers. Wheaton, Ill: Tyndale House Publishers, p.151. ISBN 0-8423-6417-X.
  • Lee, Raymond L M., Sacred Tensions: Modernity and Religious Transformation in Malaysia (1997), The University of South Carolina Press. ISBN 1-57003-167-3
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  • Lewis, James R. The encyclopedia of cults, sects, and new religions. Amherst, N.Y. : Prometheus Books, 1998. ISBN 1573922226 p 301
  • Lichtenstein, "They Won't Boo Loudon Any Longer", Grace Lichtenstein, New York Times, February 3, 1974
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  • Melton J. Gordon Melton, Christopher Partridge (Eds.), New Religions: A Guide. New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities. pp.201-202, Oxford University Press, USA (2004) ISBN 978-0195220421.
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Doubtful

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References and quotes

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  1. ^ "Guru Maharaj Ji was twelve years old when he gave the following discourse at the 1970 Hans Jayanti. Here he proclaimed that he was going to establish peace on the earth. The effect of this satsang was so profound that it has become known as the 'Peace Bomb'. Hundreds of thousands of people wept to hear him, but their tears were all of love." in And It Is Divine. Divine Light Mission, 1972.
  2. ^ "The Peace Bomb" in The Golden Age. Divine Light Mission, Australia, November 1978, No. 49, pp. 15-21
  3. ^ a b Mahatma Ashokanand and Jaques Sandoz (directors). Satguru Has Come. Shri Hans Films, 1972
  4. ^ a b (in Dutch) Kranenborg, Reender. Oosterse Geloofsbewegingen in het Westen ("Eastern faith movements in the West"). 1982, ISBN 90-210-4965-1
  5. ^ Hindustan Times. India, November 9, 1970
  6. ^ (in Hindi) Navbharat Times. India, November 10, 1970
  7. ^ Guinness Book of World Records. Sterling Publishing, 1970
  8. ^ "Hallelujah! The mini Guru, aged 13, cometh" in Evening Standard. London, UK, June 17, 1971
  9. ^ "Worshippers greet the boy guru 'straight from Heaven'" in Daily Mirror, London, UK, June 18, 1971, p. 12
  10. ^ Neal, Peter (director). Glastonbury Fayre (1972 documentary, commercial release)
  11. ^ a b Elman, Richard. "Godhead Hi-Jinx: Staring the Guru Maharaj Ji" in Creem. March 1974, p. 37-39
  12. ^ a b Brown, Mick. "Perfect Master and unholy squabbles: The Guru comes of age" in Street Life magazine. UK, April 17–30, 1976, pp. 18-19
  13. ^ "Lost weekends" in The Guardian. June 18, 2004
  14. ^ "Boy Guru" in Newsweek. August 2, 1971, p. 72
  15. ^ Allen, Henry. "Pretty Far-Out Little Dude" in The Washington Post. September 14, 1971, p. B1. At thewashingtonpost.com
  16. ^ Rawat, Prem. "Colorado Satsang: The following discourse was given by Guru Maharaj Ji on the 17th of September, 1971, at Boulder, Colorado" in Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?. 1973.
  17. ^ Divine Times by Divine Light Mission, U.S., 1970s
  18. ^ The Divine Times by Divine Light Mission, UK, from early 1970s
  19. ^ a b "Pilgrims jet to see Divine Light" in The Times. London, October 23, 1972, p. 12
  20. ^ Rawat, Prem. Reflections on an Indian Sunrise. Divine Light Mission, 1972.
  21. ^ a b c d Melton, J. Gordon. Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America. New York/London: Garland, 1986 (revised edition), ISBN 0-8240-9036-5, pp. 141-145.
  22. ^ a b Cameron, Charles (Ed.); Rennie Davis (Introduction). Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?. Bantam Books, Inc., 1973
  23. ^ "Guru's 'Bank' Seized" in Los Angeles Times (Reuters). Los Angeles, November 9, 1972, p. A15. At L.A. Times Archives
  24. ^ "India investigates guru's finances" in The Times (AP). London, November 19, 1972, p. 8
  25. ^ "Junior Guru" in Time. November 27, 1972. Available at Time website
  26. ^ Daniel, Leon. "15-Year-Old Hottest Star of Guru Circuit" in Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, December 10, 1972, p. C8. At L.A. Times Archives
  27. ^ And It Is Divine by Shri Hans Productions, Divine Light Mission. U.S., mid-1970s
  28. ^ Blue Aquarius (Bhole Ji's band). Blue Aquarius. Stax: Gospel Truth Series, GTS-2725
  29. ^ "Guru's Pupil Slates Talk" in Syracuse Post-Standard. February 3, 1973, p. 3
  30. ^ "World Set Up to Provide for Mankind: Divine Satsang Filmed" in Divine Times Vol. II No. 6 by Shri Hans Productions (DLM). Denver, Colorado, April 1, 1973
  31. ^ Divine Light News by Divine Light Mission. Australia, August–September 1973
  32. ^ "Guru Gets Testimonial And Some Pie in Face". The New York Times. August 8, 1973.
  33. ^ "15-Year Old Guru Slapped in Face by Shaving Cream Pie" in Los Angeles Times (UPI). August 8, 1973, p. 2. At L.A. Times Archives
  34. ^ "Guru Set For Honor, Gets Pie In Face" in Independent and Press-Telegram (UPI). Long Beach, Calif., Sunday, August 8, 1973, p. A-6
  35. ^ "Guru Maharaj Ji: Ulcer" in The Washington Post. September 3, 1973, p. B7. At washingtonpost.com
  36. ^ "The 'Perfect Master' from India has an ulcer" in Stars and Stripes (AP). September 4, 1973, p. 6
  37. ^ Carter, Malcolm N. (Associated Press Writer). "Guru Keeps Track Of Subjects With Computer" in Great Bend Tribune. Great Bend, Kansas, September 23, 1973, p 11.
  38. ^ Milner, Bart. "Casting some shadows on the movement of Divine Light" in The Times. UK, September 23, 1973
  39. ^ And It Is Divine: Millennium Program by Shri Hans Productions, Divine Light Mission. Denver, Colorado, U.S., 1973, p. 6
  40. ^ Rawat, Prem on The Merv Griffin Show. November 28, 1973
  41. ^ Morgan, Ted (December 9, 1973). "Middle-class premier find". The New York Times.
  42. ^ du Plessix Gray, Francine: "Blissing out in Houston" and Kelley, Ken: "Blackjack Love" in The New York Review of Books Vol. 20 No. 20. December 13, 1973, pp. 36-43.
  43. ^ Winder, Gail; Horowitz, Carol. "What's Behind the 15-Year-Old Guru Maharaj Ji?" in The Realist No. 97-C. San Francisco, December 1973, pp. 1-5.
  44. ^ Latimer, Dean. "Who is Guru Maharaj Ji and why is he saying all these terrible things about God?" in Penthouse. January 1974, pp. 65-66.
  45. ^ Kelley, Ken (January 19, 1974). "Get Your Red-Hot Panaceas!". The New York Times.
  46. ^ Du Plessix Gray, Francine; Kelley, Ken; Apter, Joan; et al. "Knowledge of the Guru," replies to Joan Apter and to Nicholas B. Dirks, Charles R. D. Lindley, Leela A. Wood in The New York Review of Books Vol. 20 Nos. 21 & 22. January 24, 1974
  47. ^ Kelley, Ken. "Over the hill at 16" in Ramparts No. 12. February 1974, pp. 40-44.
  48. ^ Goldsmith, Paul with Traum, Artie. "Bliss and Bones in the Astrodome" in Crawdaddy. February 1974, pp. 62-65
  49. ^ Adler, Dick "TV Review: Videotape Explorers on Trail of a Guru" in Los Angeles Times. February 23, 1974, p. B2. At L.A. Times Archives
  50. ^ Shamberg, Michael (dir.); Prem Rawat; Rennie Davis; et al. Lord of the Universe. Top Value Television (TVTV), February 1974.
  51. ^ O'Connor, John J. (February 25, 1974). "TV: Meditating on Young Guru and His Followers". The New York Times.
  52. ^ Kelley, Ken. "An East Indian Teen-Ager Says He Is God" in Vogue. March 1974.
  53. ^ The Golden Age by Divine Light Mission, Duo Productions. Australia, 1974-1979, Vol. 1-55
  54. ^ Levine, Richard. "When The Lord of All The Universe Played Houston: Many are called but few show up" in Rolling Stone No. 156. March 14, 1974, pp. 36-50.
  55. ^ Gortner, Marjoe. "Who Was Guru Maharaj Ji? Just think of him as a spare tire" in Oui. May 1975, pp. 90-133
  56. ^ Scheer, Robert. "Death of the Salesman: for rennie davis (model high school student, antiwar spokesman and chief proselytizer for guru maharaj ji) the media always meant the message" in Playboy. June 1974, pp. 107-108, 112, 236, 238-240.
  57. ^ Kelley, Ken. "I See The Light: In which a young journalist pushes a cream pie into the face of His Divine Fatness and gets his skull cracked open by two disciples" in Penthouse. July 1974, pp. 98-100, 137-138, 146, 148, 150-151.
  58. ^ Baxter, Ernie "The multi-million dollar religion ripoff" in Argosy No. 380. August 1974, pp. 72, 77-81.
  59. ^ Dart, John. "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area" in Los Angeles Times. November 27, 1974, p. B2. At L.A. Times Archives[dead link]
  60. ^ "Maharaj Ji, Guru" in Current Biography Yearbook: 1974. H. W. Wilson Company, p. 254 ff. At Google Book Search
  61. ^ Frazier, Deborah. "Growing Pile of Unpaid Bills Beneath Guru's Spiritual Bliss" in Sunday Journal and Star (UPI). Lincoln, Nebraska, March 23, 1975, p. 11A
  62. ^ Riches Called Goal of Divine Light in Winnipeg Free Press (CP). March 24, 1975.
  63. ^ "Mother Ousts Young Guru as Playboy" in Los Angeles Times. April 1, 1975, p. 2. At L.A. Times archives

    Note: the next day, the Los Angeles Times returned to the issue: Mother Ousts 'playboy' Guru (p. 6A)CALLS MAHARAJ JI A PLAYBOY: Mother Ousts Guru, 17 (p. D1)

  64. ^ Belkind, Myron L. "Guru's mother rejects him as religion chief" in Independent/Press-Telegram (AP). Long Beach, April 2, 1975, p. 9
  65. ^ "Guru Tries to Take Control of Mission" in the Ruston Daily Leader, April 9, 1975.
  66. ^ "Court Halts Heiress' Money Gift To Guru" in Charleston Daily Mail (API). April 18, 1975.
  67. ^ "Guru Maharaj Ji: Pizza, Sports Cars and Millions of Followers" in Mansfield News Journal (UPI). July 14, 1975.
  68. ^ Rawat, Prem et al. The Sayings of Guru Maharaj Ji (Vol. 3; Part IV). Divine United Organization, Shri Sant Yogashram, Hans Marg, Mehrauli, New Delhi - 110030, 1975.
  69. ^ "Maharaj Ji Wins Fight For Mission" in The Washington Post. February 2, 1976, p. C7. At washingtonpost.com
  70. ^ Cornell, George W. "Group Led by Teen Guru Toning Down Eastern Style" in Albuquerque Journal. March 3, 1976
  71. ^ "Spiritual group's claims, practices are changing" in Evening Capital (AP). March 6, 1976
  72. ^ Mishler, Bob; Frazier, Debbie (UPI: interviewer). "Part of the mainstream" in The Golden Age No. 29. May 1976, p. 8 ff.
  73. ^ Thurmond, Strom (United States Congress senator). Prem Rawat's Inspirational Message to the United States Citizen's Congress. US Congressional Record, July 20, 1976.
  74. ^ Messer, Jeanne. "Guru Maharaj Ji and the Divine Light Mission", in The New Religious Consciousness by Charles Y. Glock and Robert N. Bellah, editors. University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1976, pp. 52-72
  75. ^ Moberg, David O. (1978). "Review of The New Religious Consciousness". American Journal of Sociology. 83 (4): 1074–1077. doi:10.1086/226672. JSTOR 2777756.
  76. ^ Élan Vital by Divine Light Mission. U.S., 1977–early 1980s, ISSN 0195-2145
  77. ^ "Guru Maharaj Ji becomes a citizen of the U.S." in Rocky Mountain News. Denver, Colorado, U.S.A., Wednesday, October 19, 1977
  78. ^ Como, Don (dir.); Donovan (music); Rennie Davis; Prem Rawat; et al. Aliens from Spaceship Earth. U.S., 1977. At IMDb
  79. ^ Stoner, Carroll; Parke, Jo Anne. All Gods Children: The Cult Experience - Salvation Or Slavery?. Radnor, Pa: Chilton, 1977, ISBN 0-8019-6620-5.
  80. ^ Foss, Daniel A.; Larkin, Ralph W. (1978). "Worshiping the Absurd: The Negation of Social Causality among the Followers of Guru Maharaj Ji". Sociological Analysis. 39 (2): 157–164. doi:10.2307/3710215. JSTOR 3710215.
  81. ^ Rawat, Prem. The Living Master: quotes from Guru Maharaj Ji. Denver: Divine Light Mission, 1978.
  82. ^ Collier, Sophia. Soul Rush: The Odyssey of a Young Woman of the '70s. New York, William Morrow & Co., 1978, ISBN 0-688-03276-1
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references to Bob Mishler

edit

Some years ago in these pages (about 2006) the subject of the accuracy of the material for the Bob Mishler interview of 1979 was thrashed out. It concluded with the inability of anyone to produce the actual recording of the Bob Mishler interview, and the subsequent removal of that as a legitimate source for any discussion pertaining to Maharaji. So what happened? Has someone unearthed the originals? If not, I propose to delete the references to this interview. Errol V (talk) 10:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

  • Brown 1982 (a respectable source) uses the 1979 radio interview as a source. For inclusion in the bibliographical list such reference (i.e. *Brown 1982*) suffises to the best of my knowledge;
  • The bulk of the interview is available both in audio format and transcript. As, however, as far as I know, publication of the interview is only possible under "fair use" doctrine not compatible with en:Wikipedia's fairly strict Exemption Doctrine Policy we prefer not to link to transcript nor audio files directly from the website. Of course, if you wish, the relevant link and/or files can be sent to you via e-mail.
PS: the bibliography page didn't exist yet in 2006. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
In response to Errol, I don't know about the previous discussion but I don't see why an original audio recording is necessary if we have a transcript unless the accuracy of the trascription is disputed. Second, this is a list of significant bibliographic sources on Prem Rawat and related organizations. Some of the entries may not meet the current standards for reliable sources for this project. Those standards are constantly changing, and are further dependent on the particular use of a source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
If Some of the entries may not meet the current standards for reliable sources for this project, why are these listed? Or is that this article has a special treatment than all other Wikipedia articles? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
See Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Bibliographic_articles ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
Jossi, you've often said that it is impossible to say whether a source is reliable or not without taking into account the way in which it is used. Were you wrong then or are you wrong now? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
If a source cannot be assessed to be reliable without the context in which is used, then we may have a problem in bibliographies, thus my question in RS/N. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
The context here is a list of works concerning a topic. Is there any dispute that these works concern this topic? Are you asserting that the Mishler interview didn't mention either Prem Rawat or any related organizations? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Again, a "reliable source" for inclusion of this Mishler interview in the bibliography is Brown 1982. The question of whether or not we can use the interview itself as a source in Wikipedia is irrelevant for determining whether or not we list it in a bibliography, that is: unless we choose to ignore what WP:ASR is about. It would be absurd to think we would bar Flush from Bibliography of Virginia Woolf based on an assessment of whether or not Wikipedia editors could use the book as a reliable source on the dog's (or its owner's) life. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:38, 4 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure why Brown (1982) is under discussion. He may have used the Mishler interview as a source, but that does not mean that the source was valid. The newspaper article is not an investigation into the validity of the source. Whether or not Brown uses Mishler is irrelevant in determining whether the Mishler tape/transcript is valid or authoritative.

I already have the files (both oral and written), Francis, and the link to them. Whilst the bibliography did not exist in 2006, the discussion of the validity of the transcript/oral recording did occur at that time.

My original claim was that this transcript was not a transcript of the interview. The transcript and oral thing are not the same. Certainly then, Will, the accuracy of the transcript is disputed. There is no audio recording that supports the transcript. The original recording has never been produced. Given that the transcript of the interview appears on a site devoted to attacking every aspect of Prem Rawat's life and work, no-one could argue that that transcript has validity.

I propose to remove the reference to Mishler if the original interview cannot be sourced. Errol V (talk) 02:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

What do you mean by "valid" in the context of your contribution above (e.g., "... that does not mean that the source was valid")? --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps Errol V can find the 2006 discussion he mentioned. I don't know what an "oral file" is. Also, I don't understand the assertion that "this transcript was not a transcript of the interview". Then what is it? Has Errol V heard the original radio show, live or recorded? Perhaps Francis can provide links to the purportedly copyright violating versions online. Without something substantial there's nothing here but rhetoric. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Francis, I meant that, just because Brown might have used the transcript of the interview, it does not legitimate the transcript; that is, if there is no recording of the original interview, then any transcript that is purported to be of the interview must be viewed with some caution. Will, the discussion of the matter in 2006 was in a "Criticism of Prem Rawat" entry that no longer exists. I'm not sure how to find the particular document. In this case, the "oral file" is the mp3 file purporting to be the Mishler interview. Read the transcript; listen to the inteview. They were never the same; one was a fragment from which the "transcript" was generated. Unless the whole recording has come to light since 2006, in which case I would have to question its legitimacy. Unfortunately, there is a lot more here than rhetoric. It is an issue that is core to the value of Wikipedia as a source. (It's an interesting method of discussion, Will, to address me in the third person, as a kind of aside to a wider audience.) Errol V (talk) 10:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Really, the transcript you're referring to is of no importance (as in, OF NO SIGNIFICANCE AT ALL) when determining whether we list the interview in the bibliographic list. Brown didn't use it (that's almost certain): that transcript only came into existence some 20 years after Brown published his article afaik. No relevance can be attached to that transcript (nor to any other for that matter) when determining whether we include it in the bibliography: such transcript would only be a primary source, of no value for determining its notability in Wikipedia context. No transcript (or "MP3") is mentioned in the bibliography article, and I'm intending to keep it that way unless one is published in what we call a reliable source, and again whether such publication exists or not is of no relevance for the question of whether we list it in the bibliography.
Brown is relevant for the significance of the interview, not of any purported transcript or audio file of it. So we mention the interview in the bibliographic list, not any transcript or audio file, published or non-published. It is outside Wikipedia's remit to do any "Quellen"-research (WP:NOR): if a reliable source (like Brown) both testifies to the interview's existence, and in Wikipedia context also signals its significance, so that following our core content policies we can mention it in the bibliography, that's it. We should stop there per our core content policies, unless other reliable sources are or would become available.
The archives of the "Criticism of Prem Rawat" talk pages are still available, they're linked from the lead section (third bullet) of the Talk:Prem Rawat page (14 + 1 direct links in total). --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
Francis raises some good points. The issue sourcing is whether the interview ever existed, and whether it is significant. We have several interviews listed, including the Merv Griffin show from 1973. The interview itself is the bibliographic entry here, not some particular copy or trascription (though links to those could be added if there weren't copyright issues). Errol's apparent assertion that people sat around making a fake interview is interesting, but it is irrelevant. Someone could get a friend and pretend to do the Griffin interview on video, but doing so would not make the actual interview an unsuitable bibliographic entry. Someone could desktop publish their own version of Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?, but that wouldn't invalidate the actual book. As for addressing other editors, there are at least four editors in this thread so second-person pronouns can be confusing. No disrespect is intended. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

In any kind of writing that pretends to uncover some kind of truth, the primary sources have to be available. Those primary sources become the evidence. Francis says that we have to include the interview in the list, even though no-one is allowed to see it. Francis' claim——because Brown quotes from it, it is OK without further ado and we don't have to know anything about it——is wrong and also contradicts the inclusion of the interview in the bibliography. A bibliography has to have in it items that are accessible to others. That's the reason for having a bibliography. A bibliography is, on one level, a source of reliable information about a topic. To suggest that a bibliography includes material that might not exist is nonsensical. Any academic dedicated to the notion that "truth" is a worthwhile goal would laugh at the suggestion that original evidence does not have to be produced and documented, so that others can also test theories against that evidence.

You can't argue that it doesn't matter if the interview exists or not. It is of the utmost importance to the notion of verifiability. Errol V (talk) 11:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia doesn't pretend to uncover some kind of truth, on the contrary, per policy (WP:V): verifiability, not truth. Whether it is true or not that a person named Mishler had left a movement called DLM by 1979 is indifferent to me, and in general, to Wikipedia. Whether we have a reference to a reliable source mentioning that he gave a radio interview in February 1979 is not.
Re. "A bibliography has to have in it items that are accessible to others", no. A bibliography on Max Jacob may list the comedy play Ruffian toujours, truand jamais, premiered in 1920. That work is accessible to nobody. Likewise, any bibliography on Helmina von Chézy would list Rosamunde, Fürstin von Zypern, premiered 1823: this work also is available to nobody. Wikipedia's Bibliography of Fibonacci lists two works available to nobody, etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
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I seem to have stumbled into the briar patch again ...

How is this encyclopedic in its current form? It appears to be a list of every newspaper clipping about this man. While a list of his own works would be standard, and including "related organizations" is a reasonable decision, I can't see how including a mention of a 1973 LA Times article "15-Year Old Guru Slapped in Face by Shaving Cream Pie" is relevant here. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:11, 9 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

You are right. I have carried out a statistical analysis of the content of this page:
  • the decade 1970-1979 represents 55% of references and the list ends in 2009;
  • press articles, concentrated on the period 70-79, represent 46% of references, including around ten pornographic reviews or tabloid press;
  • each miscellaneous facts of no encyclopedic importance (like the cream pie that hit him in 1973) represent up to 3 entries;
  • there are some oddities in there, like a judgment rendered from a personal affair of a follower, a film defending a theory about aliens. As soon as the name of PR alias Maharaji appears somewhere, it seems to justify being included in this motley catalog;
  • the word that comes up the most on the page is “Guru”: 144 times, almost as many times as the number of entries.
Nonetheless, this list contains a significant number of encyclopedic sources (34%), focused almost exclusively on the study of New Religious Movements, in which Prem Rawat inadvertently found himself classified. No matter how often he has reaffirmed that he professes no belief, being a follower of knowledge through experimentation, he had to struggle (including among his supporters) against this temptation to create a new dogma. Regularly he updates, the clear distinction between “believe and know” being at the heart of his message. Here is the observation he said recently about cult:
“What is the definition of cult? Cult. This is not the official definition because the official definition is: before a religion becomes a religion, it’s called a cult. What is it about? It’s about beliefs. Believe, believe, believe, believe. […] Do you think for a second that it is a mistake that Socrates says, “Know thyself”? Begin from that. Point one: know thyself. Not “believe in yourself”, “know thyself”. What would the difference be if he said, “believe in yourself”? This would be so much more palatable for the society today.” – Charlwood, UK, September 12, 2020.
This is an excerpt from a larger article, posted on my user page, which gives some key insights that can be used to rewrite Prem Rawat's biography entirely. I regularly add new subjects.
Do not hesitate to contact me to talk about this project if it interests you in a constructive and honest spirit.--Faunus (talk) 23:17, 24 May 2021 (UTC)Reply
Below the beginning of Part 2 of “The quality of the sources” on my user page, about Mike Finch's testimony:
I was interested in the last reference on Bibliography of PR, Without the Guru: How I Took My Life Back After Thirty Years, by Mike Finch, 2009. This is a testimonial from the person who created the Prem Rawat page. Although Mike Finch did not register on Wikipedia, and is therefore difficult to track later, he did sign this first version: “Mike Finch’s introduction to Maharaji”.
Symbolically, it thus closes a sequence on several the most questionable of the pages concerning PR, highlighting the incredible influence that a small and very active group of those disappointed with Knowledge were able to exert on this narration.
Therefore, I read Finch’s book and what I discovered there sheds light on the manipulation he and others engaged in, probably in good faith as far as he was concerned…
The link to the full article Dr Finch’s strange bookFaunus (talk) 10:05, 1 June 2021 (UTC)Reply