Talk:PS Princess Elizabeth

Little Ship claim

The ship was taken over by the Royal Navy at the start of the war and already in service as a minesweeper, does she count as "Little Ship"? GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:09, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Good point. By the lead of our little ships article no but she is listed at the Association of Dunkirk little ships website Lyndaship (talk) 11:48, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I think the ADLS covers any ship that went there, regardless of whether it was part of the requisition of civilian vessels or not and the group includes all evacuation activity not just Dunkirk "Vessels from all three Operations [Dynamo, Cycle and Aerial (sic)] are included within the ADLS and are collectively known as 'Dunkirk Little Ships'. " One could phrase the lede to state it as one of the ships that evacuated the BEF and is a member of the ADLS. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:16, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I did wonder about this. But was convinced by the fact that she is listed by ADLS. Is there an official definition of "little ship"? Does it just mean a vessel in private ownership? Does it mean a vessel that normally wouldn't be a troop carrier? Do ships only qualify if the Admiralty requisitioned them after a certain date? BTW The Princess Elizabeth has been explicitly called out as a "little ship" on the Little Ships of Dunkirk for four years without anyone questioning it as far as I can see. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Little_Ships_of_Dunkirk&diff=797826366&oldid=797822263 AlistairMcMillan (talk) 15:55, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Actually ADLS do provide a definition on their front page: "The term Little Ship applies to all craft that were originally privately owned and includes commercial vessels such as barges, British, French, Belgian and Dutch fishing vessels and pleasure steamers. The Association does include some ex-Service vessels, which are now privately owned, and ex-Lifeboats." AlistairMcMillan (talk) 15:57, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps "Little ships" has a bit of "The Few" that fought in the Battle of Britain about the name - a touch of myth and legend about it but a more nuanced 'truth'. Of course ADLS definition for the purposes of membership may differ from those that historians have used over the years. GraemeLeggett (talk) 17:23, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm really not sure what you're saying here. Do you think some people claimed their boats went to Dunkirk to rescue troops when they didn't actually go? I'm pretty confident that all the ships I've tagged as little ships have enough corroborating sources to be confident they were actually involved.

If you are aware of other definitions from historians that differ from the ADLS definition I'd love to see them. I don't really see why we should be distinguishing between vessels that were requisitioned by the Admiralty before May 1940 or after May 1940. Either way you've got vessels and crews taking on a task in life-threatening conditions that they weren't intended for. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 13:40, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Regards the ADLS, they can make whatever criteria they want for joining their association. Which may or may not line up with how others define the "Little Ships"

I'm not suggesting that anyone has made invalid claims of being involved in the evacuation. I was seeing an analogy to the Battle of Britain where victory is credited in a famous speech to The Few - where the few that won the air battle where the 2000+ fighter pilots, the ground crews, the whole command and control system, the training units and aircraft manufacturers producing replacements of men and materiel, the system that got damaged aircraft back into action and so on. Is the "Little Ships" the same - including all except perhaps the RN and French destroyers? - or is the expectation that it is the small vessels that were the ferry service between beaches and larger vessels standing off? GraemeLeggett (talk) 16:10, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

I guess "Little Ships" was either coined by the contemporary press or the UK government without ever being defined. ADLS have their own criteria for membership "The term Little Ship applies to all craft that were originally privately owned and includes commercial vessels such as barges, British, French, Belgian and Dutch fishing vessels and pleasure steamers. The Association does include some ex-Service vessels, which are now privately owned, and ex-Lifeboats" but we should not consider them the exclusive arbiter. I feel we should consider retitling the Little Ships article to Dunkirk Evacuation Vessels and likewise the Little Ships category as there will always be disagreement as to what criteria should be used to define a little ship whereas this title includes all ships which took part. This book will probably provide a RS Winser, John de S. (1999). B.E.F. Ships before, at and after Dunkirk. Gravesend, UK: World Ship Society. ISBN 0-905617-91-6. Lyndaship (talk) 17:02, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

We have three articles on the subject

• List of ships involved in the Dunkirk evacuation - not impressive I predict its future is a redirect
• List of ships at Dunkirk - tabular and comprehensive on anything from trawlers upwards but lacks coverage of the small vessels
• Little Ships of Dunkirk - which is more narrative

There is room for a straight list article of any and all known ships that took part in the evacuation and a descriptive one of the takeup of small vessels. GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:37, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

I think the articles do have to be merged, but the discussion needs to happen somewhere more visible so that everything with an interest can contribute. Perhaps on the talk page of Little Ships of Dunkirk with comments on the other articles notifying anyone who might be watching the other articles but not all of them.

I disagree with changing away from using the phrase "little ships" though. It's not for us to make up another phrase to refer to these ships or to make a judgement call on which ships should be counted. So far two of us have pointed to the ADLS definition of little ship, which would include ships like Princess Elizabeth or Medway Queen. Do we have another definition? BBC also repeatedly explicitly refer to Medway Queen as a "little ship". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-24984553 AlistairMcMillan (talk) 11:51, 17 October 2021 (UTC)