Talk:Oscar Hammerstein I

Year of birth: 1846 or 1847?

There seems equal support for both years on Google. Who can tell us which is the correct date, and why?

Forgot to sign my post on 1 June 2008. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 11:10, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Hammerstein, Oscar Andrew (2010). The Hammersteins. New York: Black Dog & Leventhal Publishers. ISBN 9781579128463. says 1847. - Nunh-huh 11:28, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but that's not what I want. We already have a heap of sources that say 1846, and another heap of sources that say 1847. I don't want yet another assertion to add to either heap. I want someone to not just assert, but demonstrate that one of these dates is correct, and show why the other one is incorrect. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 10:59, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

That's fine, and worth pursuing, but it's also worth noting that not all "sources" are equally reliable. In the battle of "I found it on the Internet" vs. "it was published in a book by his great-great-grandson", the latter is the clear winner. Given the place, time, and situation of his birth, it's unlikely there are going to be vital records in which his birth could be proven. - Nunh-huh 15:16, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

U.S. Passport application (hand written) dated January 31, 1874, Oscar Hammerstein, born May 8, 1846 in Germany U.S. Passport Applications, 1795-1925 Ancestry.com John F. Barlow (talk) 21:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

The Concise Oxford Dictionary; Hammerstein, Oscar; b Stettin 8 May, 1846; d New York; 1 August, 1919 The Concise Oxford Dictionary 1996 John F. Barlow (talk) 21:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

In his memoir The Romance of an Emigrant Boy, which appeared in an 1898 issue of Cosmopolitan Magazine, Hammerstein states he was born in 1846 in Berlin. Cosmopolitan Magazine; vol. 25; May –October, 1898; pg. 571

Belated thanks for that information. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:26, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Name Change?

From U. S. Naturalization and Passport records it would appear he changed his name from Otto Hammerstein to Oscar Hammerstein around January, 1874. Two passports were issued, the first to Otto in March, 1873, the second to Oscar in January, 1874. Both were born on May 8, 1846, both were 5' 5" and wore a mustache, both were N.Y.C. merchants and both used Adolph Blau (Adolf Blau on Otto's application) as a witness on their U. S. citizenship applications. The single difference between the two; Otto's birthplace was listed as Prussia and Oscar's as Germany. Perhaps Oscar Hammerstein wanted to distance his name from that of the Prussian leader Otto von Bismark. John F. Barlow (talk) 05:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

"Opera composer"

Regardless of what the description in the Times may have been, or the pretensions of the composer, "Santa Maria" is in today's terms a musical; at best an operetta, not an opera. Similarly Hammerstein's previous operetta, the Kohinoor. Thus the accuracy of the article in its current form is disputed. - Nunh-huh 03:03, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you Nunh-huh; SingingDaises seems to think that one should go with whatever the composer called the work, this despite the fact that there was no designation of "musical" in the 1890s. -- kosboot (talk) 04:00, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

What's more, to say that because someone wrote that a piece is a "comic opera" one can justifiably say that piece is an "opera" is almost as ludicrous as saying on the same basis that the piece is a "comic". "Comic opera" and "opera" are not the same thing, nor, really is one a subset of the other in modern use. Today (which is, after all, when we are writing), this would be termed a musical or an operetta. - Nunh-huh 07:32, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I stick by what I said before. You guys are arbitrarily making a designation based on your own conclusions; the very definition of original research. Find a source calling it a musical and I will go along with you. On a side note, I think you guys are not being inclusive enough with the term opera. Operetta is a type of opera (according to Grove). If it's an operetta than it is an opera.Singingdaisies (talk) 14:07, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The lead performers in Santa Maria on Broadway were Julius Steger, Camille d'Arville, Lucille Saunders, and Marie Halton. Had these performers been plucked from productions of La Traviata? La Boheme? Madame Butterfly? Did they go on to star in operas by Verdi? Wagner? Massenet? or even Offenbach? No. Jules Steger appeared in such "operas" as Foxy Quiller, Sally in Our Alley, The Billionaire, It Happened in Nordland, and The Rollicking Girl. Camille d'Arville starred in The Belle of London Town - not an aria in sight. Marie Halton had appeared in Dorothy (opera). Lucille Saunders went on to The Singing Girl, When Johnny Comes Marching Home, Lady Teazle, and Papa's Darling. None of these works has any more place–or any less–on a list of "operas" than does Santa Maria. - Nunh-huh 00:48, 22 July 2009 (UTC) As for your second point, if something is an operetta, and you inform your reader instead that it's an opera, you have misinformed your reader - indeed, it would seem you've deliberately misled him. - Nunh-huh 00:57, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I have problems with both points. First, the biographies of the original performers has absolutely nothing to do with determining genre. Further, it is not unusual for singers to specialize in a particular area of opera. These singers happened to specialize in English language operetta just like other opera singers in the past may have specialized in areas like singspiel or opéra comique. Second, operetta is a type of opera just like a dog is a type of animal. So calling an operetta an opera is not incorrect just like calling a dog an animal is not incorrect. Operetta is just as much a part of opera as the Grand Operas and verismo operas you mentioned above. Notice that operetta is included in this template:

Singingdaisies (talk) 06:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The problem, of course, is that by your theory one could equally classify any opera as "drama" because they are musical dramas. The classification that provides the best information is the most specific one, not the most general one. And yes, opera singers sing opera, and musical comedy stars sing musical comedy, and the twain rarely meet. It's not just the "original" performers: if you want to present a list of opera singers who have appeared in Santa Maria I'm certainly willing to learn from you. - Nunh-huh 06:49, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not "my theory" or a theory at all. This is the basic structure of opera classification by genre that you'll find used consistantly throughout all scholarly publications on opera (including Grove and Oxford). You are correct that opera is a form a drama; a fact which you will find in any encyclopedic definition of the art form (usually in the first sentence). I agree that specific classifications are better when discussing individual works. In this case the specific classification is a "comic opera" (a term often interchanged with operetta) per the sources. As for singers moving between the artforms, it happens all the time. I can give you dozens upon dozens of examples of singers who have done work in both operas and musicals. Also since an operetta is an opera, technically anyone singing in an operetta is an "opera singer". The problem seems to me not with my thinking but with your prejudice. For some reason you are creating a false seperation between opera and operetta. That is like trying to make blue not a color. You have one narrow idea of what opera is when really it is so much more.Singingdaisies (talk) 07:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

For some reason you are using "operetta" and "opera" as synonyms. They're not, in any reasonable classification. If your classification makes them synonyms, it needs to be corrected. Now, where's that list of opera singers who appeared in Santa Maria? - Nunh-huh 08:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying operetta and opera are synonyms. I'm saying that operetta is a type of opera. Just one of many types. All operettas are operas, but not all operas are operettas. Everything I've said regarding genre is supported by The Oxford Dictionary of Opera and the New Grove Dictionary of Opera in their articles on operetta and comic opera. My interpretation is supported by the evidence, so I really don't think I need to say anything more. Singingdaisies (talk) 19:54, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

You've opted to ignore "comic" in the description of the work as "comic opera", and instead use the description "opera", so yes, you have chosen to say that comic opera and opera are synonyms, and of course, they are not. "Opera" used alone connotes "grand opera", though it can be used in subsidiary sense to denote other things. To use it without specifying which of those things is to mislead...in the case at hand, intentionally, on your part. If you had chosen to use the description of the work "comic opera" as given in your source, there would be no dispute: instead you chose to use your own term, "opera", and have chosen also to not care that this is misleading. You certainly don't need to say anything more, if you don't object to having the disambiguation and categories you added changed so that they actually align with the source you've used to support them. - Nunh-huh 20:06, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Um... you seem to be absolutely confused. I never dropped the term "comic opera". I used the term "comic opera" both in this article [1] and at Santa Maria (opera) [2]. The thing I was disputing was your assertion that operetta is not opera. I still assert that Santa Maria is a comic opera per the sources. Singingdaisies (talk) 20:13, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

[Moving left] You can hardly dispute what I didn't say: what I said was "operetta" and "opera" are not synonyms. And they aren't. So now you have decided that the category you want applied to Oscar Hammerstein is "Comic Opera composers" and not "Opera composers", and the name you want to give the "Santa Maria" article is "Santa Maria (comic opera)" and not "Santa Maria (opera)"? - Nunh-huh 21:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

No on all points. You did say that operetta is not opera in the very first sentence you typed above in this conversation. The title should be Santa Maria (opera) per the standard naming conventions used for operas on wikipedia. We don't DAB opera articles by the type of opera. For example, Donizetti's Adelia is Adelia (opera) and not Adelia (melodramma serio). Similarlily, the cat should be Opera composers per the cat structure used for opera composers throughout wikipedia. Opera composers are not categorized by the type of opera they wrote. The first sentence of the lead however, should describe the work as a comic opera. Singingdaisies (talk) 21:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see me saying that in any first sentence, feel free to point me to it in a more specific way if you want to play gotcha. The fact is that "opera" with no qualification indicates "grand opera" (Merriam-Webster: "a drama set to music and made up of vocal pieces with orchestral accompaniment and orchestral overtures and interludes; specifically: GRAND OPERA") Any classification that classes Oscar Hammerstein I as "opera composer" is misleading and badly in need of revision. Any classification that suggests Santa Maria is a grand opera is badly misleading. And, of course, what "we" do is exactly what's under discussion. In fact, it seems you even misstate the current state of Wikipedia's classification, as American "comic opera" appears to be treated as musical comedy and not as opera - which is precisely as it should be. - Nunh-huh 21:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Well perhaps I misread what you meant when you said "Santa Maria is in today's terms a musical; at best an operetta, not an opera." To me that seemed to make a definite separation between opera and operetta. I still stand by what I said before. Santa Maria (opera) follows the naming convention for operas on wikipedia and Santa Maria (comic opera) does not. I disagree that opera means "Grand Opera"; considering that the term opera was in use for well over two centuries before the first grand opera was composed in 1828. Your definition of opera would therefore exclude all the operas written by Mozart and the other classical era composers and would exclude all the works of baroque composers like Lully and Handel. It also would exclude the late 19th century composers like Puccini and Strauss and all 20th century opera composers like Britten. So much of opera is not grand opera that your assertion that opera and grand opera are synonymous is just laughable.Singingdaisies (talk) 21:57, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not really material that your understanding of "opera" is different from that of Merriam-Webster, since we consult dictionaries and not ourselves to determine what others think words mean when we use them. A word which has both specific and general meanings (like "opera") is useless as a category, since what you actually mean by it requires further clarification. Your assertion that calling "Santa Maria" an opera rather than a comic opera or musical comedy is something other than misleading is, of course, the laughable proposition here, and I'm not sure why you want to ensure misunderstanding rather than clarity. Santa Maria is more The Black Crook than it is Lully, Handel, Mozart, Puccini, or Strauss - which for some indiscernable reason you want to classify it with. - Nunh-huh 22:10, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

You are still not getting it. ALL COMIC OPERAS ARE OPERAS!!!! There is no such thing as a comic opera that is not an opera. A comic opera is a specific type of opera. The lead will clarify sufficiently about what type of opera it is so I don't see how you can argue that this is confusing. See ssilvers excellent comments at Talk: Santa Maria (opera) about why this work is better classified as an opera than a musical.Singingdaisies (talk) 22:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

[Moving left] No, I get it; it's you who don't seem to. To describe a comic opera simply as an opera is misleading, and to intentionally exclude or obscure information other than "it's an opera" is not the job of an encyclopedia. SSilvers comments seem well-informed; I note that nowhere does he call Santa Maria an "opera" rather than an operetta or comic opera, and that he opines that it belongs in the musical comedy project. - Nunh-huh 22:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not just calling it just an opera. The very first sentence describes the work as a comic opera. This seems like a rather silly thing to be arguing over. I don't see how the title Santa Maria (opera) could be confusing or misleading. Operettas and comic operas are types of opera.Singingdaisies (talk) 22:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

An operetta is an opera like a starfish is a fish. "Operetta" and "starfish" actually inform the reader; "opera" and "fish".... don't. - Nunh-huh 23:18, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from. I'm just trying to be consistent with the naming conventions of other opera articles encyclopedia wide. This might be a question for more experienced wiki editors in this area to decide.`I've never seen an opera article of any kind on wikipedia use something other than (opera) in the title when a DAB is needed. Your suggested title would therefore appear to be inconsistent with standard naming practice.Singingdaisies (talk) 23:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not convinced it is anything other than standard to say Santa Maria (comic opera): there's no regulations about disambiguation, and there's no reason disambiguation should be anything other than informative. - Nunh-huh 23:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

• Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (operas).Singingdaisies (talk) 00:11, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Seen. I don't see anything that's pertinent; perhaps you'd care to quote the portion you think is. - Nunh-huh 00:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello! I see that you people are dancing very enthusiastically on the head of a pin. Comic operas and operettas in Wikipedia are named (opera). This is a naming convention that the WP:OPERA project has followed for about three years. See Dorothy (opera), Patience (opera) etc. The debate you are having seems pointless until somebody goes to the library, as I suggested at the Santa Maria talk page, to look up what Ganzl, Traubner, Kenrick or the other theatre writers call the work. I don't know whether it's an opera or a musical, because I don't have the score. However, I do know that Kosboot is wrong in saying that the word "musical" had not been invented in 1896. Not only had it been invented by the very early 1890s, but several of the early musical comedy blockbuster hits had already played on Broadway, as I noted on the Santa Maria talk page. Why is this discussion being carried on in multiple places? Please move it back to the Santa Maria talk page, which I am watching. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

We're discussing it here because this is where the classification of Oscar Hammerstein I as "opera composer" was added. We could hold it on Santa Maria or where ever you wish, though we can't move it back since it didn't start there. I quite agree that what is needed here is data rather than improvisation of a classification system. Comic operas and operettas certainly need to be distinguished from other operas, and so any classification system that doesn't distinguish between them needs a second look. The score to Santa Maria is, of course, unavailable, but the hit song from the "opera" which had a "remarkable run" (in a Broadway theatre with a Broadway cast) can be viewed or downloaded from the Levy Sheet Music Collection at [3]. "Comic opera" it may be; fine art it ain't. - Nunh-huh 00:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC). I'll move this or a precis of this to Talk: Santa Maria (opera) or whatever page it's currently on, and reserve future comments for there. - Nunh-huh 00:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Compromise?

What about a compromise: Call Santa Maria Santa Maria (opera) unless we find out that it was really a musical, but change Hammerstein's cat to American musical theatre composers, since he wrote both a comic opera/operetta and a musical? Note that Sigmud Romberg is also categorized as a musical theatre composer. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

• It would make more sense to me to categorize him as both an opera composer and musical theatre composer. I don't see why one should take precedence over the other since he contributed to both genres. Obviously if Santa Maria is shown to be a musical than we can make appropriate changes later.Singingdaisies (talk) 15:21, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Clearly he belongs in the musical theatre category, and the "opera" category just makes Wikipedia look foolish. Unfortunately, it appears that your excellent idea for compromise has been rejected. - Nunh-huh 23:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The facts are the facts. Hammerstein composed a comic opera. He is therefore an opera composer. I don't think wikipedia looks foolish for following the facts.Singingdaisies (talk) 18:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The facts are the facts. Hammerstein composed a comic opera. He is therefore a comic opera composer. Wikipedia wouldn't look foolish if it followed the facts. Unfortunately, you seem to be unaware that the term "comic opera" as applied to a Broadway production of the time means that the work is in fact in the tradition of musical comedy rather than opera. And it's that unawareness that gives rise to the foolishness.- Nunh-huh 03:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. At this point operetta was still the primary form of entertainment on Broadway and not musical comedy. Please see ssilvers remarks at Talk:Santa Maria (opera) addressing this issue. Regardless, all sources refer to this work as an opera. Your arguement is entirely based upon your own personal opinion and has no sources/evidence to support it. Until you have evidence, we go with the sources avaiable. These sources clearly indicate that he wrote an opera.Singingdaisies (talk) 02:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. All sources refer to this work as a "comic opera". Don't misrepresent them, please. - Nunh-huh 02:36, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

And again we go round and round the same arguements. Lets review the evidence. Fact one: Grove and Oxford both define comic opera as a form of opera. Therefore, refering to a comic opera as an opera is correct. (Think of it like calling a golden retriever a dog.) Fact two: Santa Maria is described in multiple sources as a comic opera. Fact three: Any composer who composes an opera, regardless of its specific form or type, is an opera composer. Fact four: Ssilvers research shows that the predominent application of the term comic opera to Broadway productions during the 1890s was to operettas (a form of opera) and not musicals. He also showed that the term "musical comedy" was already in use several years prior to Santa Maria's composition in both England and the USA. If the term already exsisted why wasn't it applied to this work by either the composer or the media? Fact six: No evidence has been presented by yourself or any other editor that designates this work as a musical. Indeed, every source refers to this work as either a "comic opera" or "romantic opera". Fact seven: While it is true that some works labeled comic operas during this time period were later labeled as musicals, ssilvers research indicates that the majority of these works in the USA were written in the vein of opera/operetta and not musical comedy. In summation, currently the evidence provided suggests this work is in fact what it claims to be: a comic opera (in its a classic definition as in fact a type of opera and not a musical). Until evidence is found to indicate otherwise I don't see how we can describe this work as anything but a "comic opera" where "comic opera" is defined in its traditional sense as a type of opera that is light in nature. This would in turn make Hammerstein an "opera composer". If you find a source which describes the work in a different way please present it and I will happily change my opinion. Until then, calling this work a musical or a non-operatic work is entirely original research.Singingdaisies (talk) 03:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

As is calling it an "opera". Simply repeating your assertions is not going to get anywhere, nor is putting your personal spin on Ssilver's comments, which boil down to "we need better sources on this work's genre". I await the citation to your putative source that says "Oscar Hammerstein I was an opera composer." - Nunh-huh 04:32, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Family

There are newspaper reports ("Lure of the Footlights as Felt by a Manager's Daughter," New York Times, May 31, 1908) that refer to Oscar's daughter, Stella. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.247.189 (talk) 21:47, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Suicide of wife

According to the memoirs of the French actress Georgette Leblanc, Hammerstein’s widow committed suicide circa 1920, depressed by the financial ruin Oscar left on his death. I believe this must have been Emma Hammerstein. See G. Leblanc, La Machine à Courage (1947), p. 43. -Wwallacee (talk) 17:36, 19 February 2018 (UTC) Wwallacee (talk) 17:36, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Hammerstein's widow, (Mary) Emma (Miller) Swift Hammerstein, died on 14 January 1946 and was buried 16 January 1946 in Lafayette, New York. She was involved in a great deal of litigation with her husband's children after his death in 1919, was found homeless in Central Park in the fall of 1922, and was found guilty of "immoral conduct" in 1930. She received some intermittent financial aid from Arthur Hammerstein. A brief obituary appeared in the New York times of 17 January 1946. No exact cause of death is provided, but the information provided by the family mentions her "last illness". - Nunh-huh 03:52, 20 February 2018 (UTC)