Talk:Omar Koshan
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Apaugasma in topic Celebration of Umar ibn Sa'd's death or of Omar ibn al-Khattab's death?
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Requested move edit
Eid e shuja → Eid-e-Shuja' – Shuja' is an Arabic word which ends with the arabic letter 'Ayn. Thus an apostrophe must accompany the 'a' when an arabic word containing 'Ayn is transliterated in EnglishMir Quayam Abbas (talk) 15:16, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Celebration of Umar ibn Sa'd's death or of Omar ibn al-Khattab's death? edit
The user Apaugasma reverted my edits, saying that they were disruptive and Quuxplusone's edits were good. My question is: when someone changes the entire topic of the article, wouldn't you count that as disruptive? I mean, the article was about the celebration of Umar ibn Sa'd's death, not Omar ibn al-Khattab's death. MullahBalawar, 16:27 13 September 2021 (UTC)
- It seems to be both (see the article as I've just updated it). However, I must say that there's somewhat of a problem in the fact that our source for the holiday originally being about Umar ibn al-Khattab's death (Elton L. Daniel; Ali Akbar Mahdi (2006). Culture and customs of Iran. Greenwood Press. p. 185. ISBN 0-313-32053-5.) does not mention the name of the holiday (neither Eid-e-Shuja' nor Omar Koshan nor Eid al-Zahra), only the date of 9 Rabi' al-Awwal. However, it certainly does establish that there once was a Shiite celebration of Omar ibn al-Khattab's assassination on 9 Rabi' al-Awwal, and the quote by Gibbon also seems to point to something like that. Much better sources are needed in general here, but rather than unduly qualifying Quuxplusone's addition of these sources as disruptive, we should be looking for better sources. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 17:22, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
- Apaugasma, I do agree but only (Elton L. Daniel; Ali Akbar Mahdi (2006). Culture and customs of Iran. Greenwood Press. p. 185. ISBN 0-313-32053-5.) mentions 9 Rabi' al-Awwal as an assassination date. It also mentions 26 Dhul-Hijjah as the death date. All Shi'tes believe Omar ibn al-Khattab to be assassinated in Dhul-Hijjah, Sunnis believe in Muharram. And second point, is that this article was originally made for the Shia celebration of the death of Omar ibn Sa'd in response to his actions in the Battle of Karbala. However, Quuxplusone changed the subject of the article. He should have made another article for the celebration of Omar ibn al-Khattab's assassination. Am I not right? MullahBalawar (talk) 5:46, 14 September 2021
- Did you read my complete rewrite of the article (last edited at 01:09, 14 September 2021)? This article is about Omar Koshan or Eid-e-Shuja' (the feast of Shuja', probably in reference to Baba Shuja' al-din, a nickname of Umar ibn al-Khattab's assassin Abu Lu'lu'a Piruz Nahavandi, see Johnson 1994, p. 127, note 23), and reliable sources such as Johnson 1994, Algar 1990, and Torab 2007 all confirm that Omar Koshan indeed celebrates the assassination of Umar ibn al-Khattab. Now 26 Dhu al-Hijja is the accepted date of Umar ibn al-Khattab's death among scholars (for those with access to Encyclopaedia of Islam, see here), and it appears that the Omar Koshan festival was initially celebrated on that date (see Johnson 1994 and Algar 1990), but according to Algar 1990 it was also sometimes celebrated on 9 or 10 Rabi' al-Awwal. These days, Omar Koshan is celebrated in the three weeks following 9 Rabi' al-Awwal, as documented by Torab 2007. How, why and when the date shifted from 26 Dhu al-Hijja to 9 Rabi' al-Awwal is not clear to me, but the sources are clear on the fact that this happened. Likewise, it is not clear when the shift from celebrating the death of Umar ibn al-Khattab to celebrating the death of Umar ibn Sa'ad happened. Torab 2007 seems to imply that it happened after the Islamic Revolution of 1979, but it seems probable to me that this goes back further, perhaps even to the 19th century. Again, what is clear in any case is that there's one festival, Omar Koshan, which originally was about Umar ibn al-Khattab's death but at some point shifted to being about Umar ibn Sa'ad's death. This is what this article is about, and having two articles would be both inappropriate and confusing. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 12:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
- FWIW, thanks Apaugasma — I think your rewrite is definitely more "encyclopedic" in tone, and explains the confusing situation well. Although at the same time I wish it had kept a few of the "unreliable, yet flavorful" sources from the old version. ;) Anyway, it might well make sense to move this article to Omar Koshan and/or create a second article for whatever is being celebrated in practice these days (Eid-e-Zahra? surely not Eid-e-Shuja'? as you point out, that name is still clearly associated with the assassin of Omar). Sure, they're etymologically the same festival, but if they're temporally separated and with different cultural significances, perhaps two (inter-hatted) articles are warranted, similar to how there's Saint Nicholas and Santa Claus and Father Christmas. Just a thought. Not volunteering to write any second article. :) --Quuxplusone (talk) 21:30, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
- Hello Quuxplusone!
I don't think that the modern (20th-century, or even post-1979) 'revisionist' version of the festival is independently notable, in the sense that there would be significant coverage in multiple reliable sources dealing with the post-1979 version (Torab 2007 is the only source I know of; the fact that it is officially banned in Iran, and its very sensitive religio-political nature, probably has a lot to do with the dearth of sources). Apart from that, I would certainly not oppose splitting if the current article would get too long, but that's not quite the case yet (perhaps it really comes down to the question: is someone going to write that second article? it would be foolish to oppose if there is enough material, but I'm not going to write it). The current article should indeed be moved to Omar Koshan (this is how it is commonly called in reliable sources, also in a few sources used in Abu Lu'lu'a Firuz but not yet cited here), but I didn't do this yet because there's still an Afd running. The AfD should close soon now, and then I will move it. Thanks! ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 21:59, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
- Hello Quuxplusone!
- FWIW, thanks Apaugasma — I think your rewrite is definitely more "encyclopedic" in tone, and explains the confusing situation well. Although at the same time I wish it had kept a few of the "unreliable, yet flavorful" sources from the old version. ;) Anyway, it might well make sense to move this article to Omar Koshan and/or create a second article for whatever is being celebrated in practice these days (Eid-e-Zahra? surely not Eid-e-Shuja'? as you point out, that name is still clearly associated with the assassin of Omar). Sure, they're etymologically the same festival, but if they're temporally separated and with different cultural significances, perhaps two (inter-hatted) articles are warranted, similar to how there's Saint Nicholas and Santa Claus and Father Christmas. Just a thought. Not volunteering to write any second article. :) --Quuxplusone (talk) 21:30, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
- Did you read my complete rewrite of the article (last edited at 01:09, 14 September 2021)? This article is about Omar Koshan or Eid-e-Shuja' (the feast of Shuja', probably in reference to Baba Shuja' al-din, a nickname of Umar ibn al-Khattab's assassin Abu Lu'lu'a Piruz Nahavandi, see Johnson 1994, p. 127, note 23), and reliable sources such as Johnson 1994, Algar 1990, and Torab 2007 all confirm that Omar Koshan indeed celebrates the assassination of Umar ibn al-Khattab. Now 26 Dhu al-Hijja is the accepted date of Umar ibn al-Khattab's death among scholars (for those with access to Encyclopaedia of Islam, see here), and it appears that the Omar Koshan festival was initially celebrated on that date (see Johnson 1994 and Algar 1990), but according to Algar 1990 it was also sometimes celebrated on 9 or 10 Rabi' al-Awwal. These days, Omar Koshan is celebrated in the three weeks following 9 Rabi' al-Awwal, as documented by Torab 2007. How, why and when the date shifted from 26 Dhu al-Hijja to 9 Rabi' al-Awwal is not clear to me, but the sources are clear on the fact that this happened. Likewise, it is not clear when the shift from celebrating the death of Umar ibn al-Khattab to celebrating the death of Umar ibn Sa'ad happened. Torab 2007 seems to imply that it happened after the Islamic Revolution of 1979, but it seems probable to me that this goes back further, perhaps even to the 19th century. Again, what is clear in any case is that there's one festival, Omar Koshan, which originally was about Umar ibn al-Khattab's death but at some point shifted to being about Umar ibn Sa'ad's death. This is what this article is about, and having two articles would be both inappropriate and confusing. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 12:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
- Apaugasma, I do agree but only (Elton L. Daniel; Ali Akbar Mahdi (2006). Culture and customs of Iran. Greenwood Press. p. 185. ISBN 0-313-32053-5.) mentions 9 Rabi' al-Awwal as an assassination date. It also mentions 26 Dhul-Hijjah as the death date. All Shi'tes believe Omar ibn al-Khattab to be assassinated in Dhul-Hijjah, Sunnis believe in Muharram. And second point, is that this article was originally made for the Shia celebration of the death of Omar ibn Sa'd in response to his actions in the Battle of Karbala. However, Quuxplusone changed the subject of the article. He should have made another article for the celebration of Omar ibn al-Khattab's assassination. Am I not right? MullahBalawar (talk) 5:46, 14 September 2021
Expand Persian template edit
Hello 91.34.52.105 ! I see that you've re-added the {{Expand Persian}} to the article. However, it seems to me that the article on fa-wiki is largely based on blogs and forums (which as self-published sources are not considered to be reliable for Wikipedia), as well as a few primary sources. Our en-wiki article, on the other hand, is now based on top-quality secondary and tertiary sources (I'm planning to add some more in the near future). Could you please tell us which parts of the fa-wiki version are well-sourced and should be translated? Are you planning to do some of this translating in the near future? Thanks! ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 17:17, 17 September 2021 (UTC)