Talk:Oko (orisha)

• Source for Latin America Doug Weller:
• The authority on the subject in Latin America is Lydia Cabrera, in El Monte, page 17 says Oko.
• Queering Creole Spiritual Traditions: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and ...Por Randy P Lundschien Conner, David Sparks, Orishá-Oko
• Sacred Leaves of Candomblé: African Magic, Medicine, and Religion in Brazil, Por Robert A. Voeks orixá Okô JMGM (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

POV vandalism/ disruptive behavious

A user from the Portuguese Wikipedia has for the second time and without any explanation removed sourced information to change the spelling of a word for purely ideolgical reasons (a practice that has led to said user being blocked on numerous occasion on the ptwiki). Rather than turning the lede into a Christmas tree for the sake of one single POV user, I'll include here that the spelling "oco" can be found in Cuba here, here, here, here, and plenty other sources. The spelling "oko" exists and I have communicated to the editor that she is welcome to include it with reliable sources, but without removing the version that she deslikes as she has twice done.

Note The spelling "oko" is more recent, disseminated by sociologists, anthropologists and ethnographers with a stronger reliance on the IPA. The same process is taking place in Brazil in terms of endonyms of the native ethnic groups. Added to that is the greater contact with Yoruba. So now we have "ocha" and "osha" side by side, chango/ shango side by side], "oricha" and "orisha" side by side and even "lukumi" appearing where earlier it was always "lucumi". The English Wikipedia also shows cases of this process, such as here (which I have just proposed for deletion) Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 16:26, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't do vandalism, Mr. Rui, please stop denigrating my image that I've been trying to maintain for almost 72 years.

Who writes the articles in Portuguese are people from different states of Brazil, each with the regionality of speaking and oral culture of religions in the majority. A Pernambuco writer will never write a book with the same words as a carioca or gaucho. I have been a part of Afro-Brazilian religions for over 50 years and for 16 years on Wikipedia without to make vandalism that I am being accused, I only make corrections according to my knowledge and sources. I have never confused the names of the orishas, ​​specifying that in southeastern Brazil it is accented for having the sound closed, while in some other state it may be wrongly for having quite different meanings than the yoruba.

While Okô or Oko has the meaning of agriculture in Yoruba, [ocó] means man or bofe in [gay dialect] widely used in gay communities, in the streets, and in these religions, being a joke for anyone who knows a little about the subject.

The writer who wrote a book in Portuguese and changed the name of the orixá to ocó has no idea of ​​the absurdity he made. That's why I dropped the word at the beginning of the article, there's no need to say in the article the wrong ways some writers use it. The name Orixá Oko is unique, worshiped in many diaspora countries, no matter the pronunciation, the written form should be the same for everyone. But if you want to leave it as you are now saying that in Latin America he is a man or a bofe, I will not change anymore, until someone corrects it. JMGM (talk) 22:34, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

I fail to see how the ptwiki discussion is at all relevant here, I removed the non-reliable source and the reference to the uncommon spelling. In fact, even the unreliable source cited did not backup the claim stated in the article. The spelling in the source was not the same as the one it supposedly backed up, and there was no mention at all of it being used in Latin America. Please provide a proper source for any alternative spellings to be added. Chico Venancio (talk) 12:31, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia could you justify using an unreliable source that does not back up the assertion? Chico Venancio (talk) 16:38, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

The comment of JMGM is nonsense, as well as several others of the same authorship that appeals to age in an obvious victim, and should be disregarded. @Chicocvenancio and Rui Gabriel Correia: Ocô is widely used as a spelling in Portuguese literature (especially in Brazil), including by one of the greatest sociologists like Reginaldo Prandi. Usage also varies from the 1950s to the end of 2017, impacting a 60-year range. However, I agree with Chicocvenancio when referring to Latin America.

I expanded the content, removed some that I was unable to attest to, and added new sources, which support the content and spelling. I hope the matter will be resolved once and for all. Edmond Dantès ^{d'un message?} 22:41, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Edmond Dantès Could please correctly cite the pages for citation number 3, ( Prandi 2017.) backing up the usage of "Oco"? It seems to me as the only reliable source out of the three used there, as using a 1954 primary source and a 1984 dictionary to backup current usage of a spelling seems to inadequately backup the claim. Chico Venancio (talk) 11:33, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

@Conde Edmond Dantès: Could you please indicate what the page is in that source so I can check it? After a few more days I will remove it. Chico Venancio (talk) 19:31, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

I was otherwise engaged and could only now return to this. As the situation has been addressed and hopefully resolved once and for all, as Conde Edmond Dantès says, I will just add the list of sources that I was busy gathering, as it behoves me to demonstrate that my arguments were well founded.

@Chicocvenancio: Have you analyzed all the sources I added? In total, seven attest to the use of the spelling. See: Segredos Guardados, Prandi; Segredos Guardados, Prandi; and Bahia de Todos-os-Santos, Jorge Amado.

Your comment about the sources is fallacious, first that I don't see any more valid source to attest the spelling than a dictionary. Furthermore, the book "Aimó" does not have an indication of pages, but it is easily verifiable: here. Edmond Dantès ^{d'un message?} 15:24, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Conde Edmond Dantès Could you please point to a message were I ever called you misogynist before stating lies here?

Beyond not citing the pages (a requirement to make the notes verifiable) it seems to me you're using WP:SYNTH with these sources. I do not see in any source you're using the fact you're trying to backup. It seems you are trying to use examples of a specific spelling cherry-picked from a google books search as reliable sources for the supposed spelling of Oko in Brazil. I'll again wait for you to add the page numbers to the sources and provide an adequate source to backup the claim. Chico Venancio (talk) 15:38, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Sources for "oco/ ocô" in Cuba (not all are adequate sources under normal circumstances, but here it is about illustrating the spelling being employed by users of the language)

album on Amazon, same album on Youtube here, here, Stanford University, Duke University, Santeria site in Austria, [https://www.orishaimage.com/blog/yoruba-lukumi-guide bilingual list of names of entities (Yoruba/ Spanish),

Sources for Brazil

Candomblé site, conference paper by Nei Lopes, author of Novo dicionário banto do Brasil, 2ª ed. and Enciclopédia brasileira da diáspora africana, doctoral thesis, study aid for schools

I have left out many Master's dissertations, that though not an authority, are an indication of the spelling being used.

Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 23:10, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia Your continued usage of unreliable sources in this discussion is very surprising. Of all the links you provided for the cuban case none are reliable. One of them is multiplied by three in your response by including [one translation twice. Interestingly, if it was a reliable source it would strengthen not the view that Oco is used in Cuba, but the exact opposite. It outright states: "Especially in older Cuban books on Orisha you can find this, today it is not so widespread anymore and most of these Lukumí words are already written with a “k” as in Yorùbá."

The sources for Brazil manage to be even worse! A google search, a passing reference in a transgender seminar, a thesis and an apocryphal PDF file. The last two don't even cite Oco at all!

Please familiarize yourself with WP:RS, especially WP:RSSELF and WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Chico Venancio (talk) 11:33, 6 February 2020 (UTC)