Talk:Ohrid–Debar uprising

Would someone like to add a date to this turkey

hmmm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.69.67 (talk) 19:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Serbian ocupation of Macedonia was finished in May 1913.

after signing of London peace treaty. According to this treaty, Vardar Macedonia became part of Serbia.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:05, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

POV

“In fact, there was no uprising or rebel of Albanians in Macedonia, but there was organized mass invasion from territory of Albania, with Austrohungarian and Bulgarian military circles behind it. Piškopeja, Žirovica and Debar fall in first wave. There were 10.000 Albanians, led by foreign officers, cooperating with certain units of IMRO led by Jane Sandanski personally, who spent several months in Albania, preparing Albanian move toward Macedonia.” - Dimitrije Bogdanović, The Book on Kosovo.

Without having informations based on this source, article does not correspond to WP:NPOV and does not represent “all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.” --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:49, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

However Knjiga o Kosovu is not RS(review by Jasna Dragović) and read these partial reviews too

• Despite its relative backwardness and isolation, Kosovo’s status as a focus for Serbian nationalism and flash point for armed conflict has generated a large literature describing the region’s history. The Kosovo problem is evoked from a Serbian perspective in Dimitrije Bogdanović, Knijga o Kosovu.
• The author of a very influential study called Knjiga o Kosovu, which was published among the numerous revisionist writings of 1985 was Dimitrije Bogdanovic.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:32, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

• I don't agree that Knjiga o Kosovu is not RS.
• There are numerous sources about that event which clearly support the above mentioned statement from Knjiga o Kosovu and explain joint incursion of members of VMRO and Albanians from the territory of Albania. (Востанието имало тајна поддршка од младата албанска држава.....Почетокот на востанието било многу случаен. Една чета вооружени Албанци налетала на српска единица кај селото Епискупија и се судриле со нив...Од пред извесно време се обединивме со Албанците и со македонските Албанци, но тие како народ се лесно избувливи, па избрзавме со востанието, Vladimir Ćorović - Подбадани и помагани од Аустрије и нарочито од Бугарске Албанци су у септембру 1913. извршили упад у Србију и заузели Дебар, Охрид и Стругу и узбунили Арнауте са српског подручја., ...--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:18, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Knjiga o Kosovu isn't RS i.e take it to RSN if you think that all the scholars labeling it a revisionist/nationalist/propagandist work aren't reliable. Btw this ВМОРО во соработка со вооружените македонски Албанци креваат востание против српските војски. Ова е веројатно првиот воен сојуз помеѓу ВМОРО и Албанците. Востанието добива тајна поддршка и од штотуку формираната албанска држава says that Albanians from Macedonia and IMRO received covert support from Albania i.e please don't misrepresent sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 23:22, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Will you please be so kind to read the rest of provided quotes from the same text which say: "Почетокот на востанието било многу случаен. Една чета вооружени Албанци налетала на српска единица кај селото Епискупија и се судриле со нив...Од пред извесно време се обединивме со Албанците и со македонските Албанци, но тие како народ се лесно избувливи, па избрзавме со востанието". Also, please be so kind and read the third source I presented: Vladimir Ćorović - Подбадани и помагани од Аустрије и нарочито од Бугарске Албанци су у септембру 1913. извршили упад у Србију и заузели Дебар, Охрид и Стругу и узбунили Арнауте са српског подручја. which also support information from Knjiga o Kosovu. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The revisionist work Knjiga o Kosovu says that were no Albanian rebels from Macedonia, while the source you're misrepresenting refers to македонските Албанци rebels. Vladimir Corovic can't be regarded as RS or NPOV as he was an official historian of Yugoslavia, the hostile faction. That being said Corovic was also a supporter and proponent of Greater Serbia policies[1].--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 13:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• Misinterpretation of the sources. I am surprised you misinterpreted the sources because it is quite easy to see that Knjiga o Kosovu did not say that "there were no Albanian rebels from Macedonia". Knjiga o Kosovu explains that term uprising or rebel is not appropriate because "there was no uprising or rebel of Albanians in Macedonia" but "organized mass invasion from territory of Albania, with Austrohungarian and Bulgarian military circles behind it."
• Additional sources. That view is supported by:

1. Ćorović :"Подбадани и помагани од Аустрије и нарочито од Бугарске Албанци су у септембру 1913. извршили упад у Србију (Albanians invaded Serbia in September 1913 urged and helped by Austrians and Bulgarians)".
2. This is also supported even with statement of Milan Matov who admited that everything began when "Една чета вооружени Албанци налетала на српска единица кај селото Епискупија и се судриле со нив. (One company of armed Albanians accidentaly run into serbian unit near village Епискупија"
3. Maybe you would understand better if you just click to Епискупија. There is an article about Episkupija which says that "Albanian forces retook the city on September 20, 1913.". Do you think that Mr. Rakip Sinani is another "official historian of Yugoslavia" who is "supporter and proponent of Greater Serbia policies" and "hostile faction of Yugoslavia" (Sinani, Rakip (2005). Dibra dhe dibranët në faqet e historisë (in Albanian). Tiranë: KTISTALINA-KH. p. 150—160. ISBN 99943-625-8-5. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)).
4. Here is what Petar Chaulev wrote: "Од пред извесно време се обединивме со Албанците и со македонските Албанци, но тие како народ се лесно избувливи, па избрзавме со востанието. (My translation "For some times we are joined with Albanians and with Albanians from Macedonia, but because they are very easily ????? as people, so we decided to hurry up with rebelion". I don't think that Chaulev was "supporter and proponent of Greater Serbia policies" and still he admit Albanians were joined with IMRO in organizing the "rebelion".

• Even if you are right (and I think you are not) that all those historians are "official historian of Yugoslavia, the hostile faction", we should follow NPOV policy and present POV of all hostile factions. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:45, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I think that you are also wrong when you claim that Yugoslavia was hostile faction. Yugoslavia could not be hostile faction because Yugoslavia did not exist in September 1913.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

You quoted that there was no Albanian uprising or rebels from Macedonia etc., which can be only be traced to one revisionist work. There is no POV and it can be added that it was supported by Albania.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 21:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

No, you again presented the same misinterpretation. I already wrote in my previous comment: " Knjiga o Kosovu did not say that "there were no Albanian rebels from Macedonia"". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:45, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

How to solve problem with POV?

I am inviting editors to propose how to solve problem with POV. Comments are welcomed.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:55, 27 November 2010 (UTC)