Talk:Nicholas I Zaya

Nicholas Zaya

Dear User talk:A ntv,

Hi there,

Sorry for deleting some of the stuff from the Nicholas I Zaya article. I was going to put it back once I got things in the right format. I certainly approve of you restoring the ISBN number of my book (The Ecclesiastical Organisation of the Church of the East, 1318-1913)!

I note your comment that the issue of the firman gave a degree of protection to the Chaldean church. I would have thought that the most important change of circumstance, at least as far as the second half of the 19th century was concerned, was the Ottoman campaign of 1847 against Badr Khan Beg and Nurallah, prompted by the 1843 massacre and the subsequent 1846 Kurdish invasion of Tkhuma. The following paragraph from an unpublished book of mine on the history of the Church of the East conveniently summarises this campaign:

In October 1846 Bedr Khan Beg and Nurallah invaded Tkhuma. The Christian villagers of the region were promised shelter by the agha of Chal, but this offer appears to have been merely a ruse. On its way to Chal, a large column of Tkhuma villagers was encircled and massacred by the Kurds. The Kurds also sacked every village and destroyed every church in Tkhuma. Women and children were taken alive, to be sold into slavery, but the Kurds killed every man they caught. The survivors fled over the border to Persia.

The invasion provoked a strong protest from the British government. In the past, distracted by the threat from Muhammad Ali, the Turks had shrunk from challenging Bedr Khan Beg openly. Now, encouraged by the British, they decided to destroy his power by force. Local militia under the governors of Erzerum, Jezira and Mosul sealed off the Bohtan mountains on three sides, and an Ottoman army advanced up the Bohtan river into the heart of Bedr Khan Beg’s domain. His strongholds were captured and the main Kurdish army was routed at Seert in 1847. By 1850 both the khan and Nurallah were captured and exiled, and Ottoman rule was, at last, firmly established in Kurdistan.

If I'm right, I don't think the grant of the firman was of great practical importance for the Chaldean church during the 1850s and 1860s. After all, it didn't help the Chaldeans during the massacres of 1915. I think the extension of Ottoman rule to the Hakkari and Bohtan regions was a far more important factor. In which case it's not really relevant to an article on Nicholas Zaya. I plan to do an article on the Kurdish invasions in the next few weeks, and I think the issue should be discussed there rather than in this article.

In the material I have overwritten I noticed that a possible alternative date of death for Zaya was mentioned. Do you have any idea where that suggestion came from? I am pretty sure he died in 1855, but I'll check the relevant references when I get back from the office this evening.

Hope my brusque amendments haven't upset you too much.

Djwilms (talk) 07:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

you made a good job! It was important to mention the persecutions happened during Zaya's patriarchate, and you did it very well. Theses events are narrated also in the Frazee quoted text. About the date of death of Zaya, the Wilmshurst has 1855 (the more reliable). The Article in German wiki has 1863. I'm not home to check other my books, but we can keep 1855. A ntv (talk) 17:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Dear User talk:A ntv,

I laughed when I saw the sentence you had removed. You're quite right: that has the Badger stamp all over it, and I'm surprised that I was taken in by it when I decided to include it.

I'm still interested about the 1863 date of Zaya's death. I am in fact the David Wilmshurst you mention, and I can't actually remember now where I got 1855 from (probably Giamil and Tfinkdji). If there's any evidence for a later date of death, I'd be interested to know what it is. I'll take a look at the German Wikipedia and see if it helps.

I've forgotten what Zaya looks like in Syriac. Should it be Zay'a or Za'ya? I've probably put the ain in the wrong place.

I've decided pro tem, until I can check further, to accept the date of resignation of May 1847 given in the Chaldean Church website. I originally wrote 1846, which may have derived from Badger. 1847 sounds more likely.

Djwilms (talk) 02:12, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The book Hierarchia Ecclesiastica Orientalis (G. Fedalto, 2006, ISBN 8825013930 pag 908) has 25.sept.1838-1847. This site [1] (not always reliable) has May 1847. The very reliable Raquez, Olivier (1976, "Rapports avec les Eglises Orientales". in Metzler J.. Sacrae Congregationis de Propaganda Fide Memoria Rerum. III/2. Herder. ISBN 3451163543 pag 32), based on Roman Acta, has 1847. Anyway it is normal to has several months from the decision taken/published in Mosul and the acceptance of this decision by the pope in Rome (a patriarch resignation was considered valid only when confirmed by the pope). A ntv (talk) 06:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Dear User talk:A ntv,

Thanks for that. I've got Bello, Tfinkji and Giamil at home (I'm in the office at present), and I'll see what they have to say. Coakley might mention it too, since he expired in Salmas. Hormus might mention it also, though I can't remember offhand when he wrote his report. Knowing my luck, it will have been in 1854, which would not be of much help.

I hope you don't mind, but I've began working on the Yohannan Hormizd article, to which I see you have also made a substantial contribution. My rationale is that I have a lot of material already written at the right length for Wikipedia, most of it properly footnoted, that did not make it into The Ecclesiastical Organisation of the Church of the East, and I would like to put it in the public domain rather than keep it on my computer where it's no use to anyone. What I would really like to do is to paste in all my stuff on Yohannan Hormizd (it comes to about twenty paragraphs), overwriting most of the existing article, then compare my much fuller version with your stuff and expand my version with material that you mention and I don't. I would check your references to Baum and others to make sure nothing of importance gets lost. This would be easier than trying to marry the two versions together, paragraph by paragraph. But it might take a few days, during which time there might be losses as well as gains. I hope you will bear with me while this happens.

Djwilms (talk) 09:33, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Dear Djwilms, I wrote the articles on the Chaldean patriarchs because they missed, but they shall be improved. And for sure you are by far more expert than me, and it is an honor for me to read what you write. About Zaya's (Nicolas I Isaie) death, the 1855 is mentioned in the table at pag 39 of the Fiey, Pour un Oriens Christianus Novus A ntv (talk) 16:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Dear User talk:A ntv,

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I hope you will continue to correct me when you think I'm wrong, as I was about the subsidies to the Chaldean bishops. I've just started to contribute to the Assyrian articles, but hope to add a substantial body of work that I did while I was writing EOCE that never made it into the final version. Have you seen my recent articles on Dioceses of the Church of the East? I'll eventually go right up to the present day.

I was just re-reading the History chapter of EOCE this morning to refresh my memory of what I said nine years ago about Yohannan Hormizd, and I've got far more about him in the first draft of the book than appeared in the published version. I think it would be useful to have this stuff on Wikipedia.

I've had a quick look at Tfinkdji, who gives Zaya's date of resignation as 1846 (not 1847) and date of death as 1855. This is interesting, as it was obviously the source for my statements in EOCE, but not conclusive, as Tfinkdji didn't have a great deal of information on the earlier Chaldean patriarchs, and sometimes makes mistakes. I haven't had time to look at Bello yet, but if he disagrees with Tfinkdji I would be inclined to accept his evidence. For the time being I will provisionally footnote the date of death with a reference to EOCE and Fiey's POCN. I'll replace it later with something more detailed.

By the way, Tfinkdi's 1914 article contains some lovely photos of the later Chaldean patriarchs, but I've got the article in a very poor-quality photocopy. Are you aware of any photos available on the internet to illustrate the articles on the Chaldean patriarchs?

Djwilms (talk) 01:09, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

You can find pictures here, but I'm not completely sure they are copyright free. About Hormizd, when I drafted the Article I had problem to get infos (for Augustine Hindi it is even worse) because some sources are not always coherent. For example I had to find the articles of Habbi to understand how his reinstatement was possible . Thank for the informations about the pictures in the Tfinkdji: I've asked a library in Rome to mail me a copy of this Article, hoping for a good resolution. A ntv (talk) 06:34, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll catch you on Friday, as it's time to go home. I'm off work tomorrow (it's a public holiday in Hong Kong) so I might have time to take a fresh look at Habbi and Bello. It's a very difficult subject, I know, and most people aren't experts on Vatican procedures. Still, it was fun to research when I was writing EOCE. I've done quite a bit on the article Yohannan Hormizd today, but there is plenty more to come (particularly more discriminating footnotes).

Djwilms (talk) 09:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)