Talk:Next German federal election

Leaders of the SPD

are Esken/Walter-Borjans. Any other statement is simply wrong. Scholz is an important figure in the party, but not "leader", as long as that refers to the elected heads of parties. Nillurcheier (talk) 09:17, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

As was already stated in this edit and in this one, the election infobox depicts chancellor candidates, not party leaders, who are only shown when the party has no designated chancellor candidate. This is why for 2021 we show Scholz for the SPD (not Walter-Borjans/Saskia Esken), Laschet for the CDU/CSU (not the Laschet/Söder duo) or Baerbock for Grüne (not the Baerbock/Habeck duo). Similarly, for 2013 we show Steinbrück for the SPD (not Gabriel) and Gregor Gysi for Linke (not the Kipping/Riexinger duo); for 2009 we show Steinmeier for the SPD (not Müntefering); for 2005 we show Schröder for the SPD (not Müntefering); for 2002 we show Stoiber for the CDU/CSU (not the Merkel/Stoiber duo); for 1998 we show Schröder for the SPD (not Lafontaine); for 1990 we show Lafontaine for the SPD (not Hans-Jochen Vogel) Note that Joschka Fischer is shown for Grüne in all three 1998, 2002 and 2005 despite he never having been party leader; likewise for SPD's Johannes Rau (1987), Hans-Jochen Vogel (1983), Helmut Schmidt (1976 and 1980), or CDU/CSU's Franz-Josef Strauss (1980) and Erhard (1965).

The current "official situation" (which is what was mentioned in this edit) is that Scholz is still the SPD's designated chancellor candidate, and that he is currently attempting to form a government (with high odds that he will, in fact, become chancellor). But even if we had to refer to what most reliable sources actually state, it is outside any doubt that Scholz is shown as the main SPD's figurehead as of currently; even opinion polls conducted since the election ask for him, not for Walter-Borjans/Saskia Esken.

I'm quite puzzled about this situation, since there have been a number of attempts in the last few weeks to have Scholz removed from the infobox (but not Laschet). I could understand that a reasonable doubt would exist as of currently on whether Laschet should still be considered as the current CDU/CSU's chancellor candidate (specially considering he has announced his will to step down), and I would have imagined a fight could ensue over whether to show Laschet or Söder in the infobox (or both). But that the actual conflict is emerging because of a dispute on whether the 2021 election's frontrunner and likely future chancellor should be present in the infobox escapes my comprehension. Cheers. Impru20^talk 10:02, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Laschet is (still) leader of the party. Things are a bit fuzzy since leader does not to be defined precisely. Head of party versus most relevant and well known person. Nillurcheier (talk) 11:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

The point is, Laschet is not the only leader of the CDU/CSU. These are two parties. Söder is leader of the CSU, so if the criterion prevailed that party leaders were to be shown in place of chancellor candidates (which it wouldn't, as per the multiple examples shown), then both Laschet and Söder should be shown, yet no attempt at adding Söder has been made: the only conflict has been Scholz vs. Walter-Borjans & Saskia Esken, which is weird. Also, it is the "chancellor candidate" that gets shown, not "the most relevant and well known person". Several parties typically designate a chancellor candidate and sources do report on this fact extensively, so it is not difficult nor fuzzy to determine which person gets this position for each party. It is official. Impru20^talk 11:38, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I tried to at least add Sasken and Klingbeil, but this idea was rejected. SInce the article is about the next election, it is not really relevant, who is the current chancellor. However it is worth mentioning, who are the current party leaders. I still support to add them. There might have been inconsistences in the past, but this should not be an argument for such in the future. Nillurcheier (talk) 13:36, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Aside of the fact that it sounds a little presumptuous to affirm that "it is not really relevant who is the current chancellor" (I'm fairly sure Scholz is much more relevant both nationally and internationally than Esken and Klingbeil, though that's another debate) it is chancellor candidates, not party leaders, the ones that get shown in the infobox. This is a common, well-established practice that is in place for all previous elections, with party leaders being only shown if the party has not nominated a chancellor candidate on its own. The fact that it's a future election does not change this: Scholz has preference as current Chancellor and 2021 candidate, with the SPD (or himself) not having voiced that he won't be running for re-election next time around.

There might have been inconsistences in the past There is no "inconsistency" in the past: articles for all former federal election show candidates, not leaders (that is different to the fact that, at many times, both positions were held by the same person). Also, please stop attempting to impose unilateral "compromises" that are basically a reiteration of your own preferred version. Impru20^talk 14:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I said, "for the next election, it is not really relevant..". If we refer to chancellor candidates, well, fair enough, however none of them has been announced yet. It would be an option to use party leaders now and substitute them by chancellor candidates when announced. Whether Scholz has a preference, won't dare a guess, currently his party is tumbling below 20% and any prediction is pure speculation. btw, it would be helpful to get a broader range of feedbacks. Nillurcheier (talk) 15:58, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

For the same rule of three, no leader should be shown since we cannot be sure these will be the party leaders when the next election is held in 2025. Sure, no chancellor candidate has been announced for parties other than the SPD, so we have no choice but to use the leaders there. But the SPD does not need to announce a chancellor candidate because they have an incumbent chancellor. A different scenario would be Scholz announcing he will not seek re-election, but this has not happened, and showing Esken/Klingbeil in his place means giving them a prominence they don't have in election terms (while diminishing Scholz's prominence for no reason other than for the sake of it).

currently his party is tumbling below 20% and any prediction is pure speculation. That is... irrelevant to the election infobox? And speculation by itself based on opinion polling three years away from the next election. I think you are confusing "chancellor candidate/incumbent chancellor" with "next chancellor" here. Showing Scholz in the infobox makes no presumption on whether he will be the next chancellor or not. Cheers. Impru20^talk 16:41, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Just reasking: Based on which reason, Scholz is mentioned here? As you said, we do not know, who will run, who will be party leaders in 2025 and which parties (currently 8) will have realistic chances go gain seats. And yes, polls are not more than weak indicators. That is why the German pages does not mentioned any persons at all. I'm aware of the US/UK-attitude, which is more person/constituency oriented and less party/parliament fokused. May be that's why "leaders" appeared here at a time when no leaders for this election can yet be named.Nillurcheier (talk) 08:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I will not answer to a question I just answered in the previous comment (a hint: the bit about Scholz being the incumbent chancellor answers that question).

Precisely, because we do not know "who will be party leaders in 2025 and which parties will have realistic chances go gain seats" (considering that Zentrum has a chance to "win" seats is, however, a bit presumptuous, based on previous elections, current state of polling and the fact that their only current MP is a defection, not an election win), the way to go for "next elections" has always been to depict the state of things at the present time, then changing the information as it evolves through time. Our visions do not differ here; rather, and within this context, for some reason you seem unwilling to acknowledge that chancellor (or PM) candidates have preference over party leaders.

Wherever there is a contest in which parties designate a PM/chancellor candidate, it's that person, not the party leader, the one that gets shown in the infobox. This applies for Germany, but also for UK (as you mentioned), Spain, Italy, Portugal and other countries. Most of the time, the party leader will be the PM/chancellor candidate as well, so that gives no issue. But when these are different people, it's the candidate, not the leader(s), that get shown. In the case of Germany, you have the obvious examples of 2005 (Schröder, incumbent chancellor), 2002 (Stoiber), 1998 (Schröder), 1990 (Lafontaine), 1987 (Rau), 1983 (Vogel), 1980 (Schmidt, incumbent chancellor), 1976 (Schmidt, incumbent chancellor)...

In the case of a future election, it's true that we cannot determine the chancellor candidates for all those parties not holding the chancellorship, so that's why leaders are used there instead. But there is absolutely no reason to assume the incumbent chancellor will not seek the chancellorship next time around, except evidence to the contrary (whenever an incumbent PM/chancellor has wished to stand for re-election, they have frequently been allowed to do so, and it has been rare for chancellors to retire after just one term, if any). Scholz has not announced (as of yet, at least) that he will not seek the chancellorship, and current opinion polling pointing to him having little realistic prospects to keep the post should the election being held today have nothing to do with his will to stand for re-election. Impru20^talk 08:27, 29 June 2022 (UTC)