Talk:Mykola Lebed

Lviv ... Poland?

Tymek 's comment "(officially, it was part of Poland, not western Ukraine)" is not accurate. At the time that Lebed was born there was no Poland, and the city of Lviv was known as Lemberg. It was part of Austro-Hungary. Bandurist (talk) 00:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

This sentence says that he was born in Galicia and it is correct. However, it follows with Lebed completed his studies... Since he was born in 1909, it was impossible for him to complete studies in Austria-Hungary, or perhaps he was a young genius, completing his studies at the age of 9. Then the sentence might be true. Tymek (talk) 21:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not really want to get into an edit war, especially on the page about a disgusting criminal and a murderer. I will put aside the silly argument about Lviv/Lwow, have it your flawed way Bandurist. However, the beginning of the article, after your changes, looks ridiculous.

Let us see: Mykola Lebed (a.k.a. Maksym Ruban, Marko, Yevhen Skyrba) (born 1909 in Galicia, died July 18 1998 in Pittsburgh, PA, USA). Born in Galicia Austria-Hungary, Lebed completed his studies in his hometown, which which although currently is in Ukraine, during the Interbellum was under Polish administration. In 1930-32 he took an active part in setting up youth groups of OUN in the area around Lviv.

Bandurist, a question - what is hometown? It does not say anywhere. And a comment - you will not change history, no matter how hard you try. Sorry. Tymek (talk) 15:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Lebed and Volhynia

Please write with reference to the study of historians or source. 1. In the first link (allegedly Filar) mention of the Lebed goes into speech of Kwaśniewski. This is not history, but politics. 2. Polishchuk not a historian. The site from which you quote it has a clear anti-Ukrainian orientation. This is a subjective source. Burumas (talk) 11:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Lebed was in the OUN head command in 1943 when massacres in Volhynia begins. This is a fact.

Filar wrote: W 1942 r. zapada decyzja o stworzeniu własnych oddziałów. 14.X.1942 r. do życia zostaje powołana Ukraińska Powstańcza Armia (UPA). Dowódcą UPA został Roman Szuchewycz „Taras Czuprynka”, zaś wysokie funkcje pełnili także Mykoła Łebed „Maksym Ruban” i Dmytro Kłaczkiwśkij „Kłym Sawur”. W 1943 r. w głowach szowinistów dojrzewa decyzja o przeprowadzeniu fizycznej eksterminacji Polaków na Wołyniu i w Małopolsce Wschodniej celem „oczyszczenia” tych terenów z Polaków. ... In 1943, in the minds of chauvinists mature decision to conduct the physical extermination of Poles in Volhynia and Galicia to "cleanse" the land of Poles...

Second source is used in article Massacres of Poles in Volhynia, this is Ukrainian site, how it can be anti-Ukrainian? OUN-UPA killed many Ukrainians eg. for helping Poles. Anti UPA didnt mean anti Ukrainian.--Paweł5586 (talk) 09:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

About website - why i wrote that he is anti-Ukrainian:

• on the site there are no Ukrainian language
• domain is unrelated to the national Ukrainian domain
• site glorifies the Sevastopol as a Russian city
• website treats World War II as a "Velikaya Otechestvennaya" (Великая Отечественная) (the Soviet version of history)

The fact that the site about Sevastopol does not mean that is the Ukrainian site.

Regarding the first issue of responsibility of Mykola Lebed:

• Look please О. Марущенко Сучасна вітчизняна історіографія Волинських подій 1943 р.: проблеми і перспективи досліджень // Сторінки воєнної історії України Випуск 11. - Київ: Інститут історії України НАН України, 2009. - №11. - c.32-41 p. 34 - 'And then probably the decision on anti-Polish campaign decided by the part of the Board, which would thus strengthen its position in the newly created UPA and, in particular, to remove M.Lebed from the leadership.' (А відтак імовірно, що рішення про антипольську акцію ухвалила та частина проводу, котра хотіла в такий спосіб закріпити свої позиції в новостворюваній УПА та, зокрема, відсторонити від керівництва М. Лебедя.); 'In contenporary literature says that Volyn fraction OUN (b) started to operate on its own initiative, in its sole discretion, using the strategy "fait accompli", regardless of the central leadership of the organization' (В сучасній літературі відзначається, що волинська фракція ОУН(б) почала діяти за власною ініціативою, на власний розсуд, за допомогою стратегії «доконаних фактів», незалежно від центрального керівництва організації).
• Also look "Організація Українських Націоналістів і Українська Повстанська Армія" Фаховий висновок робочої групи істориків при Урядовій комісії з вивчення діяльності ОУН і УПА Chapter 11, p. 25 - 'У радянських документах відповідальність за волинську трагедію покладалася на "бульбівців", а у спогадах політичних противників ОУН(Б) — на "рубанівців", тобто прихильників "урядуючого" провідника М. Лебедя (Максима Рубана). В матеріалах Делегатури польського уряду за 1943 р., коли йшлося про антипольські акції на Волині, фігурувала, як правило, не ОУН(Б) і навіть не УПА, а "волинська ОУН". За цією назвою стоїть провідник ОУН(Б) на Волині і командувач УПА Д. Клячківський. Саме цей видатний діяч українського повстанського руху доклав тоді найбільше зусиль до організації не тільки антинімецької і антирадянської, але й антипольської боротьби.'

So to speak of M.Lebed, as the responsible person is not correct.

When we talk about massacres of Poles, we must remember that it was the second Polish-Ukrainian war. Partisan war. Massacres were on both sides. Armia Krajowa killed Ukrainians and vice versa, Ukrainian partisans - the Poles.

Best regards / Z szacunkiem Burumas (talk) 10:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I have added new, unbiased source. The case is clear now.

I am sorry but you are questioning Polish sources, and you have added Ukrainian sources. Why your sources are better? Second thing is that Armia Krajowa never made well organized ethnic cleansing operations against Ukrainians, there werent any orders gave by the Polish head command to exterminate Ukrainians. All Ukrainians victims was killes in single retaliatory actions - about 10 th. On the other side - the UPA command ordered genocide - to remove all Poles, UPA was trying to kill as many Poles they can - woman, children in area five Voivodeship! About 120 th. Poles was cruelly mourdered. This is big diffrence. Redgards--Paweł5586 (talk) 08:27, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Sources

I am reading this now. It is on-line and could be useful.

• Joe Conason (1986). "To Catch a Nazi" (PDF). Village Voice. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |day= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:01, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

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Unusual reference style

The article is using an unusual reference style, where it states the page via {{rp}} (like ": pref." or ":90-91"),but doesn't state the source where these pages are to be found. Pages 90-91 from which document/book/article? The wiki article says that it's referring to the the final report of an institution, but said report is not listed in the References section in the wiki article, because a footnote for pages 90-91 was never created.

I've never seen this style of referencing in any other wiki articles and find it rather counterintuitive to have to look through the article text to find bibliographic information on the source of a statement. The usual style is:

<ref name="final report">{{Citation|title=final report|year=2007|publisher=institution x}}</ref>{{rp|90-91}}
Nakonana (talk) 13:21, 28 October 2023 (UTC)