Talk:Muad'Dib

Please ...

please reference the term "Mahdi" here on wikipedia in realation to Herbert's character. The wealth of arabic cultural significane in Dune, obviously, cannot be overstated. I've still never seen any satisfactory discussions of what, if any, commentaries Herbert was making in his writings. Spice=Petroleum? CHOAM=OPEC?? Fremen=fundamentalist muslims? Did anyone read Chapterhouse???? what the F???

Resolved

. Muaddib, The Messiah, Mahdi, and The Mahdi Army. Stop all spice production and bring the great houses to thier knees. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 22:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Separation of subjects

Shouldn't the part about the band called Muad Dib be on its own page ("Muad Dib (band)")? I'd do it myself if I were certain about it.
-- 83.134.86.187 14:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of Muad'dib

First of all I must say that a large amount of the language of Dune has clearly arabic/muslim origin, as an arab reading this book I must say it certainly was interesting to draw parallels and at the same time understand the book in a different way. Knowing arabic really helps understand the book , an example would be Arrakis=Ar'raqis, the dancer. Though it may not mean much, it can hint at how it is every man's desire or something appealing yet unattainable. Or it could also refer to how it dances between one House and another , the polical dance.

Now, just wanted to say that in arabic Muad'dib means "He who disciplines/teaches manners". Ad'dab or A'adaab are manners. Usul also has a meaning, if pronounced Ous-ul, it means "origins/source". This can tie to "strength of the base of the pillar", if you interpret base as start of a pillar, the first stone, origin, usul of the pillar. So the author didn't go too far with the meaning.

Mahdi also has an arabic origin , hes a religious figure in Islam (mainly to Shi'ites, a sect of islam) who will save mankind before judgement day. He will save mankind from evil, pretty much exactly what Paul is viewed as by the Fremen, supposedly after Mahdi comes the earth will become a better place, green , lush , etc. Same thing with Arrakis after Muad'dib.

Didn't add this to the article since I was unsure if it would help.--Karimi 02:14, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

This is great! I'm adding to Etymology that in arabic Muad'dib means "He who disciplines/teaches manners". Ad'dab or A'adaab are manners per common knowledge. Tnx, Karimi. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 22:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

original research

i deleted the section on etymology because it is original research, which is disallowed. text appears below. Benwing 23:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

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Muad'dib is derived from Arabic. The word is a participle active. This fictional word could be derived two from probable Arabic-Semitic roots. The root ’db is frequently suggested, meaning as participle active mu’addib, a teacher,in particular a kindergartden teacher who brings cultivated manners and might be the author of fine literature. Herbert might especially be attracted by the combination of both meanings.

For the Fremen language meaning of 'jumping mouse' muad'dib, the Near Eastern jerboa might have been used as model, although Frank Herbert wants to direct the immediate attention to the Northern American jumping mouse. F. Herbert's style likes to direct readers in his universe into different directions. The jerboa is at home in the Arabian desert. It has a strong meaning in Arab mythology. One of the most important is that in pre-Islamic times the jerboa, a small animal, destroyed the centuries old monumental stone-built dam of Marib in Yemen. The stream (sail al-arim) tamed by the dam watered the two desert gardens (oases) of Marib and was its vital life stream. The jumping mouse, jerboa dug a hole underneath until it collapsed. After the historical destruction of the dam about 580 AD, life was not anymore possible in Marib. It became deserted.In the context of Herbert's Arabic-Islamic symbolism, this connection - 'the small destroys the monumental', water, desert, changing of ecology by Muad'dib - offers a further meaning.

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Regardless of the rules I was specifically searching for etymology of words & phrases from Dune and this talk page was one of the first results. So, I wouldn't have found this information had previous sleuths not added the info. These days Wikipedia editors treat likely hypotheses as useless or dangerous information while giving published papers highest priority. Seems to me this goes against the founding ideology of Wikipedia.2604:2D80:DE11:1300:21DD:9EE:10A8:6CAC (talk) 23:48, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

meaning of Usul?

Isn't Usul Fremen for "the strength of the base of the pillar", and not just "the base of the pillar"? Goanm 14:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Search results seem divided, but apparently the 'strength' part was added in the film adaptation. — Feezo (Talk) 21:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Inspiration

This is purely "original research", but I just spotted where this "moon shadow" thing was taken from:

Man in the Moon#Maula Ali's name on the moon

Enjoy! Wnt (talk) 15:20, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Merge

Merge this page with Paul_Atreides —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.107.230.53 (talk • contribs) 21:05, March 28, 2009

I vote no. It has more meanings than just it's relation to Pual and should stay separate. IRMacGuyver (talk) 02:34, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

IRMacGuyver is right. I will remove the merge template. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 21:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I've boldly merged and redirected this stub, which I believe was long overdue. If I may repeat what I just wrote on my talk page in response to AgadaUrbanit's query: "Muad'Dib" is a minor term (adequately defined at List of Dune terminology#M) and the "article" was trying to make it more than it is. I'm a huge Dune nerd and embrace all the trivia, but this kind of detail needs to be woven into articles appropriately, not featured in its own stub. Also, the supposed etymology for the word, while perhaps interesting, has no place here because it amounts to editors analyzing/forming conclusions about what Herbert may have meant when he chose the word. I've touched on this subject before at Talk:List of Dune terminology#Arabic. Thanks! — TAnthony^Talk 17:44, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for explanation, TAnthony. Please consider. Some items from the term list do have separate articles, like Kwisatz Haderach. Do we want to axe this article also and put a redirect to Paul instead? Muad'Dib term might be as notable and as wide. I personally like common knowledge info, like etymology, my motivation Dune background facts which might interest a wiki reader, but I see your point also we don't want to make an unreadable pile of mess. Still, Kwisatz Haderach looks like an appropriate model to follow also in Muad'Dib case. Your thoughts are welcome. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 18:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

LOL, I knew you were going to mention the Kwisatz Haderach article. Muad'Dib is the name of a fictional mouse and subsequently an alias Paul adopts. What's more to say that is really notable?? The stuff about the Arakkeen moon and the etymology is just more trivia, really. The concept of the Kwisatz Haderach needs more explanation, but it is also somewhat redundant of material in the Bene Gesserit article and other places. I don't think it would fare very well in an AfD nomination, especially since the sourcing is pretty weak. There used to be a lot more Dune stubs that were merged, and honestly I think the KW article will ultimately need to be merged as well.— TAnthony^Talk 19:33, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I do want to add that I personally find much of this extraneous info interesting and think others probably would as well, but it just doesn't meet the necessary notability requirements as presented here. If there are specific elements you think should have a place somewhere, perhaps we can find a way to do that.— TAnthony^Talk 00:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh great Shai Hulud. So now it is not only Paul but also fictional mouse. And also moon and also constellation called Muad'Dib in the sky of fictional Arrakis. Agree sourcing is terrible, it is practically a stub, we better improve it. And I share your doubts on mouse. Any suggestions? Following Kwisatz Haderach -> Bene Gesserit logic we might end up merging this article into Arrakis or Fremen instead. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 17:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you agreeing with me or not? LOL. You need to think about what someone looking up "Muad'Dib" or following the link is expecting to find. I think it's most closely associated with Paul himself, it is only notable within the novel as the name he takes for himself, and most article links to it are in that context. If you're still suggesting that the article be restored and bulked up, I remind you that it's just a name, not an important concept in the novel or series. It doesn't matter that it's a name and a mouse and a sign on the moon, these are all plot details in the novel and not encyclopedic beyond what may be mentioned in context of plot summary in Paul Atreides or Dune (novel). WP:Notability (fiction) and WP:Trivia probably explain policy better than I can.— TAnthony^Talk 19:21, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree, WP:Notability (fiction) and WP:Trivia are important

Thank you for providing links for interesting guideline and draft. Policy wise, guidelines are sets of best practices that are supported by consensus. Let me state the obvious there is no consensus for your bold edit. But I will restore the merge template if others would like to add. There is nothing wrong with this article and Paul's circularly reference each other. With that I share your call for citation needed. Agree mouse is not notable. Since Muad'Dib is a messianic name of Paul, this might be one of the approaches. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 21:38, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

There is no consensus for keeping this stub either, and it is not an article. It is a dictionary entry for a fictional term. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Is there a separate page for "Shai Hulud"? No. Do we need an AfD to show you that this topic can never be expanded within policy to be a notable standalone article?— TAnthony^Talk 21:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I think a redirect to List of Dune terminology#M would be better, as the entry for Muad'Dib defines all these fictional elements and links back to Paul, and actually serves as sort of a disambig page. But the "article" (especially the ridiculous image of a real-world kangaroo mouse) is way off base. — TAnthony^Talk 21:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

AfD really? It is interesting which source supports Arrakis Arabic dance claim. Agree mouse image is an OR, I will not protest much if you remove it. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 22:08, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

LOL, re-reading my comment, it does sound a bit dramatic. I just know that there is little chance of much discussion on this talk page, and an AfD would get more attention. I'm still failing to see any real justification for this article's existence though. It is basically an overexpanded version of the passage at List of Dune terminology#M. Any reliable critical analysis of Paul as a messianic character or whatever would be superb backup for the character or novel article, but Muad'Dib is not really a topic. I'm not seeing where you think this article should go.— TAnthony^Talk 23:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Content

I have twice removed the image of a generic mouse and the Stilgar/Paul quote from this article on the grounds that this is not an image of Herbert's fictional creation, and I don't see how one character asking the other what he wants to be called needs to be illustrated with Herbert's text. Colonel Warden has restored them twice with no explanation. I'd like one, thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 21:20, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

User:AgadaUrbanit, here you write "rv, per talk", reverting the exact edits I mention above, as well as the tags I restored here with an explanation. Your edit summary has me looking for an explanation for your revert here on this talk page, but I'm not finding one anywhere. I will assume good faith, but please fill me in on why you think these items have value in the article. Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 06:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Also, as the lead of the article establishes that Muad'Dib is both the name of a mouse/constellation and the name of Paul the messiah, I'm not seeing why the further discussion of Paul as messiah is in its own section rather than under Paul's. This format suggests a third definition. And again, I find myself frustrated with your neglect to explain your edits in an edit summary like I do.— TAnthony^Talk 06:48, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• User:TAnthony wishes to delete the article per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Muad'Dib. He should please refrain from anticipating the discussion by removing significant components of the article as this will tend to disrupt proper consideration of the topic. Edit summaries are not the place for extended discussions as, per WP:EDSUM, "Avoid using edit summaries to carry on debates or negotiation over the content or to express opinions of the other users involved.". Colonel Warden (talk) 07:04, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me, I have been copyediting this article in a positive way despite my AFD seeking a redirect. This edit makes sense of a sentence that's barely in English. This edit of mine helps establish appropriateness for the etymology portion. You object to my removal "significant components": I have removed of an image which is not of Herbert's creation, and a quotation of Herbert's copyrighted work which does not illustrate anything beyond what is already plainly stated the previous sentence, that "Paul takes 'Muad'Dib' as his chosen name of manhood." That really needs a passage for proof and reader interpretation? I have explained my edits on this page and in edit summaries multiples times, but you have never once explained why you think these items are so significant. Your cut-and-paste of policy is delightful, but your grasp of it seems lacking. In the spirit of collaboration I ask you once again to actually discuss the issue. Maybe I might agree with you.— TAnthony^Talk 07:18, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• As the article cites, Herbert specifically explained that the creature was a kangaroo mouse. The picture is of kangaroo mice and this will assist readers who are uncertain as to the general nature of a kangaroo mouse. The block of text regarding the use of the name as a battle cry should not be deleted as there is good scope to develop this further. The current version does not yet fully explain the use of the name as a power word — "My own name is a killing word." &c. We need more here, not less. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:31, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the response here. Considering we're talking about a mouse, and one that seems to have no dramatic physical differences from any common one, I think the image is unnecessary. But now that I know you have a reason in mind and are not just restoring it blindly, I have no problem leaving it in the article. I also don't see how the quote illustrates what you say it does, but again, if you believe it helps then by all means.

Now that the AfD is over and this article will live on forever, I do think that the "Politics and religion" should either be merged into the Paul section or become a sub-section with a slightly different heading. As it is now, the article sort of stylistically separates the Muad'Dib religion from Paul himself, and leaves the Paul section as basically just plot summary. To me, the Paul section can be summarized as, "Paul takes the name of a mouse." Big deal. It's the stuff about the subsequent religion that makes this topic notable at all.— TAnthony^Talk 15:16, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I guess sources consider Muad'Dib religion in context of Politics and religion, so should Wikipedia. AgadaUrbanit (talk)

I think we're reading the sources differently then. The notable portion of this article is Paul Muad'Dib the messiah, and the mouse and the constellation are basically footnotes of plot trivia that we've elevated to major points of the article. Fine. But if you are separating Paul Atreides from Muad'Dib, that makes the Paul section just plot trivia like the desert mouse.— TAnthony^Talk 23:10, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Jerboa

It seams that Frank Herbert Children of Dune specifically named fictional mouse of Dune as jerboa: "In a valley between two dunes he [ Leto Atreides II ] came upon a family of jerboa which scampered away at his approach." Do we treat it as primary reliable source? AgadaUrbanit (talk) 19:09, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Are we sure this is intended to be the same type of mouse as the Muad'Dib? Is there only one species on the planet?? LOL, you know me, it's all in the details ;) — TAnthony^Talk 23:10, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm. There could be some doubts if we were talking about Caladan but on Arrakis? It was still desert planet when Leto Atreides II met those fictional creatures. Maybe it was just a reflection of omnipresent Muad'Dib... ;) 10x for review. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 00:29, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

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