Talk:Modern Jewish historiography/Archives/2023/September

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PrimalMustelid talk 19:41, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

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Jewish history books in the National Library of Israel

• ... that the first comprehensive Jewish history written by a Jewish author was published more than a century after a Protestant author's version of the same? Source: Meyer 1988, p. 169
  • ALT1: ... that all major publications of Jewish history have been influenced by the political climates of their respective times? Source: Brenner 2010, p. 15, 49, 50; Meyer 2007, p. 661; Yerushalmi 1982, p. 85; Biale 1994, p. 3
  • ALT2: ... that Yosef Hayim Yerushalmi wrote that the modern writing of Jewish history became "the faith of fallen Jews"? Source: Yerushalmi 1982, p. 86
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Long COVID

Created by Onceinawhile (talk) and Andrevan (talk). Nominated by Onceinawhile (talk) at at 12:03, 23 September 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Jewish historiography; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• I disagree with these proposed DYK framing's accuracy and it's also provocative in a way I don't think is positive for DYK. Josephus had a history of the Jews back in the Roman era, so why would you have DYK hook that says the first history was written by Protestants? Also, all major publications of Jewish history have been influenced by the political climates of their respective times isn't that true of all histories ever? And why would you write it like that? Andre🚐 14:29, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Any concern with ALT2? It is Yerushalmi's most famous phrase.

ALT0 should have the word "modern" in there, thanks for pointing out.

I agree that ALT1 is true of all histories and so not unique here. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:40, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I oppose all 3. Don't you think that's a little provocative to be writing days before Yom Kippur about lapsed Jews? Andre🚐 19:26, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

This video is well worth watching; it is extremely well done. Professor David N. Myers, the Sady and Ludwig Kahn Chair in Jewish History at UCLA, opens with the statement that "Rare is the book that is spoken about with such reverence and such admiration 40 years later." If you don't have time to watch it all, skip to 46:40 for an interpretation of Yerushalmi's comment being quoted here. Further context is at [1] and [2]. Also pinging Oceanflynn who wrote our article on the book from which those oft-quoted words came. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:48, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I also oppose all the suggestions above, but would hope that we can find a hook for Zakhov whose publication continues to be honoured through articles and scholarly events 10, 25, and even 40 years after its publication. A hook that is neither insensitive, inaccurate, etc but newsworthy will most likely be found in Myers or in a closer reading of the video suggested by Onceinawhile. I will look at this more closely and perhaps update the article.Oceanflynn (talk) 02:39, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

After reviewing this, I'm just chiming in to oppose all three as well and recommend that they be crossed out. Viriditas (talk) 22:35, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• @Onceinawhile: Per the above discussion, all of the hooks have been struck. Please propose new hooks, otherwise the nomination may be closed as unsuccessful. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:11, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Below is a proposed alternative:

• ALT3: ... that the first comprehensive publication of Jewish history by a modern Jewish author left "the differences among various phases of the Jewish past clearly apparent"? Source: Meyer 1988, p. 175

Onceinawhile (talk) 09:01, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: Way too ambiguous for me, but others might disagree. How about finding a non-controversial, matter of fact hook that everyone can easily agree is workable? Viriditas (talk) 23:39, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

All of the four hooks I have suggested so far are uncontroversial, and confirmed by all the core sources on this subject. I can bring the other sources if helpful.

Can you explain what you mean by ambiguous in this context? I can then try to reword one or all of the four proposed hooks. Onceinawhile (talk) 05:54, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I find it helpful to move forward, not focus on looking backwards. Andrevan just edited the article which provides a good hook: "... that Heinrich Graetz was one of the first historians to write a modern Jewish historiography from a Jewish perspective?" Viriditas (talk) 21:23, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm allowed to support a hook based on my own edit, but if I am, I support Viritidas' idea. Andre🚐 21:25, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Per wp:DYKINT: The hook should be likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing by readers with no special knowledge or interest. The new proposed hook basically says: “a person was one of the first to do something”. It needs a (fact-based) twist, perhaps about what Graetz did that changed the way Jewish history was written, or about how his work is perceived today. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:15, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Grätz was a German Jew that some people consider a proto-Zionist since he, independent of Herzl, proposed a national identity for Jewish people, but he was also a German emancipationist and while he's on record supporting things that people later associate with Zionism, he's an interesting player in his own right. Andre🚐 22:53, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree – the dichotomy around Graetz's motivations for writing what was the first fulsome attempt at Jewish nationalism in historical writing is very interesting. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:42, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

You should go ahead and add your interpretation to WP:DYKINT and see if it has consensus. Viriditas (talk) 22:17, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I had another idea after discussing with Andrevan on the article talk page – one very central to the article:

• "…that studies of modern Jewish historiography have underlined the "break between a traditional Jewish understanding of history and its modern transformation"?"

Onceinawhile (talk) 22:35, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

• Again, ambiguous, too general, and not at all interesting. How about focusing on tangible specifics that readers can sink their teeth into? Viriditas (talk) 22:37, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

• Formalizing hook proposal with credits due for Andre and Onceinawhile. ALT4: ... that Heinrich Graetz was one of the first historians to write a modern Jewish historiography from a Jewish perspective?" Brenner, Michael (2010). Prophets of the Past: Interpreters of Jewish History. Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-1-4008-3661-1.
  • Needs new review. @Andrevan: ALT4 needs page number for Brenner 2010, as the page range provided is too large to check. Please add it to the pages parameter above. Viriditas (talk) 23:07, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
    • The part of the book about Graetz starts around page 56 where it indicates Graetz being one of the first modern historians writing from a Jewish perspective and synonymous with Jewish historiography. I'll add it in. There is a bit on p.13 and 15 as well. Andre🚐 23:54, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
      • @Andrevan: You may want to consider re-writing ALT4 or adding an ALT5. While I don't necessarily agree with Onceinawhile's opposition to "a person was one of the first to do something", they are apparently correct that reviewers and closers have a house-style antipathy to approving hooks that have a first-based focus. I was unaware of this until now. @RoySmith: Since RoySmith recently commented about this issue on another DYK, perhaps they can opine whether ALT4 will work or not. Viriditas (talk) 00:21, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
        • Ok, let's rewrite it. I'll see what I can come up with. Andre🚐 00:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
• Thanks for the ping. The other DYK being referred to is Template:Did you know nominations/Deli 613. I see a few significant differences. One is that in the other case, it was essentially a first-person report; the owner of the deli answering questions in interviews. Here we've got statements from presumably scholars writing in published books, which are generally considered to be more reliable. Second, in the Deli613 case, the hooks were phrased in absolutes ("first", "only"). Here (ALT4) we've got "one of the first", which is much harder to argue with because finding a single counter-example won't invalidate the statement. RoySmith (talk) 00:42, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

The objection is not that it might not be a valid statement (it is definitely valid). The objection is WP:DYKINT. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:51, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

• Status update requested: @Onceinawhile, Andrevan, Oceanflynn, and Narutolovehinata5: Are you going to come to an agreement on a hook or is this going to get closed as unsuccessful? Viriditas (talk) 20:16, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

• My own knowledge of Jewish historiography in general is extrememly limited inspite of my respect and some minor familiarity with some of Yerushalmi's writings. Due to my own lack of qualifications in this area, I am withdrawing from this discussion.Oceanflynn (talk) 21:41, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

• I've been doing a lot of work on the article-- anything jump out as a possible ALT5? I just added an interesting fact about Moskoni, who lived in the Balkan region and had a very large library of books that he used to write his introductions and commentaries on translations or historical work. Andre🚐 22:42, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Ideally we'd need to hear from the nom to see if this still can proceed. If there is no response soon this may need to be closed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:05, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Is that how DYK noms work? I was under the impression that anyone can make a nom, add a hook proposal, and review. Viriditas (talk) 20:02, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I am the nom and am keen to proceed. All my proposed hooks have been shot down, so we need some more suggestions.

Note that Andrevan has since become the primary author of the article, so please could he be added a co-nominator?

Onceinawhile (talk) 22:48, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

ALT5: ... that the most popular book by and about Jews for non-Jews until the 20th century was translated by a young Balkan scholar? Andre🚐 00:17, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I am supportive of this. I have added a wikilink and a bolding. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:18, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Glad to see you two in agreement, but there are some issues. My reading of the DYK guidelines tell me there shouldn't be parentheses in the hook, but I may be misinterpreting this. ALT5 is also 187 characters, which appears unnecessarily lengthy. My last concern is that the hook is a bit confusing given that Josippon is a text that predates modern Jewish historiography, but I get that you are referring to the modern version; it just seems odd. I think if you can chop it down it might work. Get in the habit of using the hook length link up above to view your hook size. Viriditas (talk) 20:50, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, ok. I don't propose DYKs too often so forgive my ignorance of the conventions. I can knock it down to about 132 as follows - turning the wikilinks to Moskoni and Josippon into piped generic word links, which also explains that it is a "translated book" and remove the addition of "published" with book. Andre🚐 21:00, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I think you almost got it. Play around with different variations for a bit. Viriditas (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

How about this, I've inverted the clauses so we're down to 122 characters now. I probably can't chop it any further without starting with a new idea (except for maybe replacing the phrase "young Balkan scholar" with a shorter one). Andre🚐 21:52, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I like it, but maybe add an ALT6 so if someone objects you can default to another. Viriditas (talk) 21:58, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

ALT6: ... that dei Rossi's work on modern Jewish historiography was banned by Venetian rabbis, but he obtained imprimatur from a Catholic? Andre🚐 22:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I have read this nomination several times and I cannot see hide nor hair of an actual review, I need a QPQ, and this appears to be the oldest one at T:TDYK. I find ALT6 interesting, though perhaps it would be hookier to end it at "rabbis", and I'm taking the source provided here in good faith. This article is long enough and new enough. It is free from copyright issues, maintenance templates, and neutrality issues. Many of the references should be bundled per WP:TOOMANYREFS, although to my knowledge that is not a DYK issue. Unless anyone has any objections, let's roll.--Launchballer 13:56, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

References