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"Masculinity in Military Women"Edit
Whoever wrote this has a clear bias against the notion of women in the military, or at least beyond logistic roles. It is one thing to simply state the statistical dilemma with women passing the physical exams in the military by the standards of men who train for it. However, it's another to then take that evidence and then make a claim, on an online Encyclopedia, promoting this individual's personal ideology on gender roles. Speaking of women as the "life bearers" and saying that the military is thus a men's only service. This is both sexist and biased, the section either needs to be extremely revised or terminated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1180:11C:C939:6149:79DB:F726 (talk) 03:29, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Proposed excision of Masculinity sectionEdit
I propose excising the section titled "Masculinity" for either removal or removal and creation of a new article to its effect. It seem highly out of place and, as noted by the tags, has several unresolved and longstanding issues. While one could perhaps make the case that it should be retained if this article were more comprehensive (although I am inclined to think it would still be undue), given the article's relatively short length and C-class quality, an entire section dedicated to a very niche and highly specific (and evidently controversial) topic is entirely unwarranted. Ergo Sum 01:59, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
- Seeing as there have been no objections (or responses) to this proposal, I will carry it through. The masculinity section will be excised due to the continuing presence of neutrality and original research disputes, especially the fact that it gives hugely undue weight. Ergo Sum 02:54, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Merge Armed forces to MilitaryEdit
This merge has been proposed before at Talk:Armed forces, where there have been some (unreferenced) claims that armed forces may be broader in scope than the military. The military, as described in its introduction, generally consists of an Army, Navy, Air Force. As I understand, "armed forces" could possibly also include paramilitary, civil defense and/or militia. Regardless, the article Armed forces is not viable as a stand-alone article, and readers may miss out on all the information presented in Military if they only see the former. I suggest we should merge Armed forces to Military, and any difference between the terms can be described therein. There was also a discussion about the terms at WikiProject:Military history. Mikael Häggström (talk) 06:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
- Support I was just editing some articles on Bosnian Wikipedia and had the same idea. What a coincidence :) --Munja (talk) 18:47, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
Done. Except for some details about the possible distinction of the terms, as well as some "See also" links, it seemed everything at Armed forces was already mentioned in Military. Mikael Häggström (talk) 10:53, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
I have noticed that both spellings are used in this section. Defense is the standard American spelling, whereas defence is British. I don't know Wikipedia's guidelines but one or the other should be chosen. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 13:21, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
- According to WP:ENGVAR we first go by subject. If an American topic, we use American spelling. If British, or Canadian, Australian, etc. we use those English variations. If it's a non-national topic, such as the military, we go by what was used when the article was first written. We'd have to go back in the article history and see which was used first, -s or -c, and change any instances accordingly. If it's an non-national article, we just try to be consistent within that article. freshacconci (✉) 14:22, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
BRD: primary purpose of military is warfareEdit
There's been a lot of editors boldly adding various non-warfare roles for military to our opening lines for this article. I'm reverting them, and opening this discussion, following WP:BRD. Per BRD, please do not re-add them (or any others) until this discussion reaches consensus. (Any that are added should be reverted for the duration.)
The first lines of any article should uniquely and succinctly define the subject by what differentiates it from any similar subjects. Mixing this with additional descriptions that could equally be applied to other subjects does the exact opposite.
For this subject, military, it's all about warfare. Yes, a nation's standing military forces can be employed in other duties, and even often are, as a nation can easily find multiple uses for such a well-disciplined force that's otherwise idle in peacetime. But all that is incidental to the only reason for having a actual military: they are an absolute necessity in warfare, where nothing else will do. Even if often employed in these other internal civil functions, these do not require a military; hired guards, special police, civil workforce, militia, or specialized paramilitary organizations will do these other jobs better and far cheaper than a military ever could. If there was no war, there'd be no military.
Note I am fully in favor of listing these common other duties, just not as equal significance to warfare. Warfare first, and other roles after.
- Well, maybe. Many military forces don't spend much of their time actually fighting wars, and do spend a lot more time providing other functions, like internal security or even internal suppression. So, is *their* primary intended function still war fighting? (Hohum @) 00:31, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Of course to other tasks should be mentioned. It is easy to check about what is written in defense laws and some constitutions even. That about warfare as only function, is maybe just private opinion, and wikipedia is not about promotion and advocacy and private opinions. One of good examples is German basic law/ constitution Article 87a. Btw it was added after warfare and mentioned just. I guess lawmakers of that laws and constitutions knows why they added that functions.Banovicmiki14 (talk) 05:23, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Some would say to main function of military could be deterrent to potential aggressors ,insurgents, secessionists groups, terrorists etc. Also as support and giving weight to diplomacy. But lets see just the facts.
This look as good leading secction
A military is an armed force typically officially authorized and maintained by a sovereign state, intended for warfare, and other tasks and responsibilities according to state interests and policies, with its members identifiable by their distinct military uniform. It may consist of one or more military branches such as an Army, Navy, Air Force and in certain countries, Marines and Coast Guard. The main tasks of the military are usually defined as defence of the state and its interests against other states and external armed threats, also in some cases to act as support to civil authorities in combating security threats. Beyond that, the military may be employed in additional sanctioned and non-sanctioned functions within the state, including internal population control, the promotion of a political agenda, emergency services and reconstruction, protecting corporate economic interests, social ceremonies and guarding important areas and persons.
"A military is an armed force typically officially authorized and maintained by a sovereign state, intended for warfare, and other tasks and responsibilities according to state interests and policies,"- Mentioned to it is intended for warfare also mentioned about other missions. Other the most important missions can be found in constitutions, defense acts, laws. German basic law as example and lets say website armed forces of Norway missions as source.
The main tasks of the military are usually defined as defence of the state and its interests against other states and external armed threats, also in some cases to act as support to civil authorities in combating security threats.- Mention of the main tasks usially how defined in many countries.
in additional sanctioned and non-sanctioned functions within the state, including internal population control, the promotion of a political agenda, emergency services and reconstruction, protecting corporate economic interests, social ceremonies and guarding important areas and persons. - fine, depends from country to country,many military units do vip persons protection, presidents, royals etc etc fact. Spain, Sweden, India , Bangladesh etc etc.
Banovicmiki14 (talk) 15:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks A D Monroe III for starting this discussion. I fully agree with the point made. The military's primary purpose is to deter or engage in warfare, and in addition it is put to other, secondary uses, such as to suppress civil unrest, protect VIPs, respond to certain civil emergencies and so on. The intro is now better than it was, I think, although the article as a whole is still a dog's breakfast - I would like to have a go at cleaning it up / developing it but I haven't yet had the time. Fugitivedave (talk) 15:38, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
People should put political personal opinions for own blogs etc. Facts are facts. And fact are today easy to find, even in top democratic countries how it is defined. Interesting how noone mention one of the main function of military nowdays.Peacekeeping operations. In many defence laws, constitutions main functions are : 1. Defense of state, teritory, population 2. Support to civil instititions 3. Peacekeeping operations, support to allies etc. That are fact easy to be found. All other opinions what military should do and should not do is personal pov. Banovicmiki14 (talk) 15:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Banovicmiki14. I agree with you that POV needs to be kept out of it. A D is stating (and developed by me a bit) that the PRIMARY function of the military is to engage in, or deter warfare (normally but not always on behalf of the state), and also that it has other functions. And he/she and I are saying that this is a fact, not simply a point of view. It also has reliable sources - see, for example, the US army Field Manual, Chapter 3 https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/1/ch3.htm You make a good point that peacekeeping is not mentioned explicitly - and it ought to be - but I believe this falls under deterring warfare. What do you (and others) think about this? Fugitivedave (talk) 16:06, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
For me this looks fine. "A military is an armed force typically officially authorized and maintained by a sovereign state, intended for warfare, and other tasks and responsibilities according to state interests and policies, with its members identifiable by their distinct military uniform. It may consist of one or more military branches such as an Army, Navy, Air Force and in certain countries, Marines and Coast Guard. The main tasks of the military are usually defined as defence of the state and its interests against other states and external armed threats, also in some cases to act as support to civil authorities in combating security threats."
We dont need to go into details. Maybe to this part look like "The main tasks of the military are usually defined as defence of the state and its interests against other states and external armed threats, in some cases to act as support to civil authorities in combating security threats and participation in multinational peacekeeping operations".
Banovicmiki14 (talk) 16:15, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
 Is one interesting reading, thank you. ."The Army's purpose is to serve the American people, protect enduring national interests, and fulfill national military responsibilities. The Army, with the other services, deters conflict, reassures allies, defeats enemies, and supports civil authorities". Example of small country.  Banovicmiki14 (talk) 16:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
So my suggestion about this article beginning should be in short: 1. Military is Organisation usually officially authorized by state.
2. Purpose of military: Intended for warfare and other tasks and responsabilities according to state policies and interests.
3. Standard main tasks . Defense of state, population and teritory. Support to civilian authorities. Participating in peacekeeping operations.( Note to we talk about standard tasks in top democratical countries. E.g Norway armed forces Etc. This is kind of norm in many counries. So it is common.)
4. Beyond that sanctioned and non-sanctioned functions within the state, including population control, the promotion of a political agenda, emergency services and reconstruction, intelligence activities, protecting corporate economic interests, social ceremonies, national honor guards, protection of important persons. ( depends from state to state etc, conditions, political way etc.)
- First, thanks to all for the quick responses in joining this discussion. With active participation, we should be able to get good ideas to meld into a broad consensus.
- Second, can we please all follow WP:THREAD here? If this discussion continues at this pace, we're going to have to keep it visually organized to follow it.
- Third, I repeat, no one's advocating ignoring other roles for military, this is only about keeping warfare primary in the lede. (Sorting out the mess that is the rest of the article should follow the lede after it is corrected.)
- Now I'll return to threaded response to the last post, per numbered points @Banovicmiki14:
- Point 1: That "usually" is significant; not all militaries are officially recognized ones. This means point 1 shouldn't be emphasized over warfare, since that applies to every military.
- Point 2: "and other responsibilities" is vague, so doesn't help uniquely define military as needed here. Adding "state" is again not applicable to all military forces.
- Point 3: "Main" tasks listed are still secondary to warfare, so aren't "main" at all.
- Point 4: I agree with point 4 in general, as long as military is exclusively emphasized before this. (Some minor details to be worked out here.)
- I also agree that "peacekeeping" and "deterrence" should be included. Note that these are both aspects of warfare -- military positioned for this must be overcome, by warfare, for opposition forces to proceed. So, I'd list these before the others in point 4 (in some manner).
- --A D Monroe III(talk) 19:24, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- There is no any official document or website about any army or military or so about missions where will will be written " only function of our military is warfare". I checked about 20 different militaries, documents and laws, some of them are Sweden, Ireland, Norway, Sebia, Denmark, Italy, Germany etc all from democratic countries and always is mentioned someting like defence, detterence, peacekeeping, assisting to civilian authorities and ither tasks.
- Sometimes it is clear under 18.104.22.168 missions and tasks and then added "other tasks as decided by state" That are facts. So it should be totally freely added "intended for warfare and other tasks and missions". Banovicmiki14 (talk) 19:43, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- For the third time, I repeat, no one wants to say "only warfare".
- As to "other tasks decided by state": "other tasks" is vague and unhelpful, and "decided by state" does not apply to all military, so incorrect.
- As to "...and other tasks and missions": This is vague and unhelpful.
- The sole purpose of the lede is inform the reader on what a military is, as opposed to other forces or organizations. To do that clearly and effectively, we must delay (not omit) any description that could be applied to other organizations. --A D Monroe III(talk) 20:00, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Also to add in some official documents in some countries, e.g Singapore deterrence is on the first place and then if detterence fail warfare come. As norm and common to many countries is to militaries has some other tasks, and that is normal thing. And often can be seen to main tasks are as I wrote here. Defense, support civil power ( that depends from country to country about details but common thing is to always exsiting in some form so it should be mentioned as one of main tasks and in everyday life is common thing totally. And fact is to especially in peacetime it is the main task of military.) and peacekeeping operations in UN operations and EU NATO AU missions. We all have own private opinions but facts are facts.Banovicmiki14 (talk) 20:06, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- Emphasis should be put about official militaries of sovereign states. Non state actors "militaries" has even more other functions, they usually act as police force, only armed force , only emergency service in that area under control. Noone said to warfare as primary task should be ignored but since long time ago it is not just about warfare. To be just written "usially primary intended for warfare" and "the main task of the military is usually defined as defence of the state and its interests against external armed threats" is ignoring facts about other tasks what are simple to mention. adding all that internationally recognised tasks and legal norms under "sanctioned and non-sanctioned functions" and mixing normal legal norms with "protecting corporate economic interests" "political agenda" is also wrong, That other tasks and responsibilities are added just after warfare as I saw, just mentioned. One example http://www.vs.rs/en/about-saf/who-we-are/missions-and-tasks as can be seen 3 missions being realized through the completion of different tasks Banovicmiki14 (talk) 21:25, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I'm following all your points here. I'll respond to the ones I understand; if I miss any, please restate them as needed.
- On official military emphasis: I'm fine with official militaries being emphasized for the majority of the article, but this discussion is about the opening definition. There is no reason to limit the definition to one that doesn't always apply; we would have to immediately amend that definition in the next sentence, or risk misleading the reader. It would be like saying "a car is a vehicle with the engine in the front, unless it's in the back" -- much better to say "a car is a vehicle with an engine" and then go into engine details as helpful later.
- We agree that militaries can be assigned different tasks; we're discussing the significance in the order they are listed, right?
- You mention "sanctioned and non-sanctioned functions", "protecting corporate economic interests", and "political agenda" as all being "wrong". Wrong in what way? The wording could be improved, but the intent is to note that militaries are sometimes tools for military dictatorships and authoritarian regimes for selfish purposes, and sometimes get out of hand. Is this not important to include?
- --A D Monroe III(talk) 20:49, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- We agree how to say , about what is the essence of this topic. We must to make it look not to complex , but also to say and mention all what is relevant. Also emphasis should be on as I mentioned already, sovereign states and current time . That website about Serbian armed forces has one good point about “missions”/functions and to missions are done through “tasks” . I can say to missions are all the same across Europe and many other countries has it defined the same, maybe different words but the same meaning. We should somehow all this put to not look complex and to has some meaning:
- 1. So lets say, militaries are intended primary for warfare . And then to mention in the same sentence if possible about also important missions/ functions , multinational operations (peacekeeping, support to allies) and support to civilian authorities. Even “intended for warfare” , we know about to in peace time, connected to war militaries function as deterrence and to in that time usually they prepare for war operations, keep readiness etc. But it is what we know, maybe not everybody know it, and this is WIkipedia, so ones who dont know should here find some stuff about what they want to know. But to make it short we can say intended for warfare and then to add what I mentioned. Keeping just "intended primary for warfare" can make confusion and it is not corresponding to the facts, contemporary time and also what is stated in many laws and even some constitutions across world.
- 2. About “It may consist of one or more military branches such as an Army, Navy, Air Force and in certain countries, Marines and Coast Guard.” Perfect nothing to add or remove maybe on the end after what for military is intended.
- 3. Then we can say about the military may be employed in additional sanctioned and non-sanctioned functions within the state, population control, the promotion of a political agenda, emergency services and reconstruction, protecting corporate economic interests, social ceremonies and national honor guards, vip person protection( various units across world), Intelligence activities(many agencies are under military control, some cases just under military control/defense ministry/department, law enforcement( many cases of gendarmeries also under/part of military or defense ministry control across world) etc. Under that we can add stuff what depends from country to country etc. Banovicmiki14 (talk) 06:28, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Point 1: We agree on warfare being primary. So, it goes first and others later. Good.
- I don't think we can list all the other tasks in the same first sentence; there are too many of them. Plus, again, these other tasks actually do not define military for any reader; these non-warfare-related tasks are more often done by organizations that are not the military, so actually are a disservice to providing a definition. I do think we might add a short phrase about the non-military tasks in general, if we can find a phrase that covers all or most of them at once. Note I think that would end up something like "are sometimes used in non-military tasks when idle." We can give a full list at the end of the paragraph. For the 4th time, no one is suggesting not listing the non-warfare tasks in the lede; we're discussing the order and emphasis, only. Please stop insisting that we must list them as an argument; we have always agreed on this.
- Point 2: Agreed. Because readers are often familiar with these other terms, telling them that it's all part of the military is of high importance for the article's initial definition. This means not to add the long full list of non-military tasks before this. (I think that's what you are saying as well, but some of your edits appear to contradict this?)
- Point 3: Agreed. Given points 1 and 2, this is where the full non-military list ends up.
- --A D Monroe III(talk) 22:39, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ok on the end considering all, and current time functions and tasks should be some like this leading section:
- "A military is an armed force typically officially authorized and maintained by a sovereign state, intended for warfare and other functions and tasks according to interests and policies.
- Main functions of the militaries in a sovereing states are usually defined as defence of state, state territory and population, deterence, participating in multinational operation and support to civilian institutions in a way as prescribed in national laws. Beyond that, the militaries can be employed in various sanctioned and not sanctioned activities within the state as: population control, the promotion of a political agenda, emergency services and reconstruction, protecting corporate economic interests, social ceremonies and national honor guards, vip person protection, Intelligence activities, law enforcement.
- It may consist of one or more military branches such as an Army, Navy, Air Force and in certain countries, Marines and Coast Guard, with its members identifiable by their distinct military uniform". Of course some minor changes, grammar etc can work but it is as example of something what shows and include everything.Banovicmiki14 (talk) 16:57, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- "typically officially ... sovereign state" does not belong before warfare. The "typically" shows it doesn't always apply. If warfare is primary, as we've agreed, then it goes first. It's the only attribute that applies to all military. I'm okay if the "sovereign state" phrase comes just after this.
- You've moved the phrase on military uniforms to the end without explanation. The uniform applies to all sovereign states' militaries, and the uniform is what openly identifies and distinguishes the military from many other lethal-force organizations in the state, such as covert ops, etc. Thus equally important to sovereign state info, and should be kept together.
- "and other functions ... and policies" doesn't actually say anything. This might apply to literally any organization on the planet. Perhaps "the state may employ it's military in various non-military tasks in peacetime". That's still a bit weak, but it's hard to make this more definite and keep it short.
- You've moved "Army, Navy,..." to the end without explanation. As this is more definite that the list of non-warfare tasks, it should go before them.
- --A D Monroe III(talk) 22:39, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- More links German basic law article 87a  Spanish organic law on Defense Tíitulo 3  Singapore Mindef and armed forces missions Soon will change article in a way as I presented and after "Main functions of the militaries in a sovereing states are usually defined as defence of the state, its territory and population, deterrence, participating in peacekeeping and in some cases support to civilian institutions", will add some of presented sources for content. Singapore example source will add under deterrence as source.Banovicmiki14 (talk) 23:14, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- I see nothing I disagree with in these links, but I haven't found anything in them that affects this discussion on order and emphasis of tasks and description of military, except they emphasize warfare/defense. Am I missing something? Perhaps you could cite these several sources in-line to your specific reasoning points. Thanks. --A D Monroe III(talk) 22:43, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- 4 things. 1. I do work about solution and I do have results. 2. Results seems totally fine 3. I have a sourced content how militaries work nowdays and what are the main functions and it is kind of I have to explain well known facts. 4. talk page is not used in a way to if some user dont like something and if some user find to it go against his personal opinions so to user complain. PS.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Revert_only_when_necessary Banovicmiki14 (talk) 01:48, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Lets do in this way. This is how it looked: "A military is an armed force primarily intended for warfare, typically officially authorized and maintained by a sovereign state, with its members identifiable by their distinct military uniform. It may consist of one or more military branches such as an Army, Navy, Air Force and in certain countries, Marines and Coast Guard. The main task of the military is usually defined as defence of the state and its interests against external armed threats. Beyond warfare, the military may be employed in additional sanctioned and non-sanctioned functions within the state, including internal security threats, population control, the promotion of a political agenda, emergency services and reconstruction, protecting corporate economic interests, social ceremonies and national honor guards."
This is my solution. Sourced content, well written, balanced. Not hide anything or puting something to appear less relevant, and it is contemporary:
"A military is an armed force typically officially authorized and maintained by a sovereign state, intended for warfare and other functions and tasks according to state interests and policies.  The main functions and roles of the militaries maintained by sovereign states are usually defined as defence of the state, its territory and population, deterrence, participation in different types of peacekeeping/multinational operations, and in some cases support to civilian institutions. Beyond that, the militaries can be employed in various sanctioned and not sanctioned activities within the state as: population control, the promotion of a political agenda, emergency services and reconstruction, protecting corporate economic interests, social ceremonies and national honor guards, intelligence activities, law enforcement missions and guarding important areas and persons. It may consist of one or more military branches such as an Army, Navy, Air Force and in certain countries, Marines and Coast Guard, with its members identifiable by their distinct military uniform."
Further explanation: Official militaries, of sovereign states, UN members, their tasks and functions and roles, as formulated in defense laws, and constitutions, are majority, the most important and the most relevant now days. As the most important they are the main trend/norm today and they take the leading place in this article. Some "other militaries" they comes second. If someone does not like to the militaries in many countries has/can be employed in other missions and to that “other missions” now days in this 21 century are also important and defined as that, what to say, it is personal opinion. Noone removed or denied warfare function it came first.
This will be included in the article as improvement of content instead of not sourced content. Period. This discussion is meaningless and should be closed, I repeat this is really improvement and that previous version is, not sourced and without any explanation.
Please do not remove well sourced content, made in good faith with good intention to improve this article. Further improvement is welcomed, of course. If there is further improved content, it must to be truly improved, balanced, sourced, true and also contemporary without pov-pushing views. Thank you. Banovicmiki14 (talk) 04:45, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- "Let's do it this way"? Sorry, NO. You cannot unilaterally impose your changes. No one editor can ever own any article. The only "way" here is the standard long-established Wikipedia policy of WP:BRD, which you are not following.
- None of the changes you've done to the article, however well-intended they might be, have any agreement. You have sources, but they do not directly support your preferred changes. Even if they did, that would make them useful for discussion points; they do not override Wikipedia policy.
- Unfounded accusations of POV-pushing reflect poorly on the accuser. Saying "discussion is meaningless" is much worse.
- Please take some time to consider and understand this, and act accordingly. --A D Monroe III(talk) 21:28, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
- Of course to there is no need for to make edit war. My edits are well explained, sourced, contemporary and made in a good faith and I welcome all new edits. New edits has to be sourced, trend/norm, and important to be contemporary, not pov pushing or biased. As one user said here in this discussion: "many military forces dont spend much of their time actually fighting wars, and do spend a lot more time providing other function" and that is true. Many militaries defined that functions and that is norm now, well not now but since decades ago. Peacekeeping, normal function defined in many countries in their national defense laws. Support to civilian institutions, normal function in many countries, defined like function and used in that way, some militaries normally has in their ranks also gendarmerie units who are not doing just warfare tasks. I understand to some users dont know that, or to they are not informed or to their worldview is different from ideological or any other stand but what is fact is fact and it should be presented in that way. As I wrote before, noone removed warfare function, but if someone try to present to only job of military and their only function is warfare, and to they dont do anything except that, that is ignorant or some hard pov pushing.Banovicmiki14 (talk) 03:30, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Banovicmiki14. I believe you're acting in good faith but your edits are not constructive. Wait until there's consensus. There isn't consensus yet, and I (for one) don't find your arguments convincing. Please do not edit the article until this conversation reaches a conclusion. Thanks. Fugitivedave (talk) 21:11, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Fugitivedave When I saw this article, that leading section was poor and not sourced, then I added more content in a good faith and intended to put more details and better explaination in that leading section.I added what I was thinking to is well known, like lets say, military roles are actually defined in laws and some constitutions pretty clear.
- As I wrote, no one removed warfare function, it is listed as first. But to ignore to there is other fuinctions as peacekeeping and support to civilian institutions ,to that functions are legal, and to it is defined in many countries, to many countries use their militaries for other roles not just to wage war, it is simple going against what the facts are.
- If someone has something lets say against how militaries are used and what is writen in many countries laws, then that is under advocacy and pov pushing. I just reported what the facts are and how countries defined main roles of their militaries in short. I wrote it in one normal concisely way and there is sourced content and that is all.Banovicmiki14 (talk) 06:02, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
The sources given for these edits in question here do not actually support the referenced material. It's obviously not appropriate to do things like reference "The main functions of the militaries maintained by sovereign states are usually defined as defence of the state, its territory and population, deterrence" to the website of the Singapore Ministry of Defence - it obviously doesn't support such a broad-ranging statement. There are lots and lots of reference works which describe the roles of armed forces which can be drawn on. This is WP:OR. As the material isn't referenced and there hasn't been support from other editors in the above discussion, I've reverted back to the stable version. Nick-D (talk) 09:39, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- Wrong. About deterence, Singapore MOD website was used as a source for just that word. But ok it can be removed. I dont get, official, easy to find, documents about defense laws, constitutions, official websites of many militaries are not good enough sources for this wikipedia article??? Anyone who wanna to search can easy find missions of military in different countries. Also fact is to military is used for many things not just warfare. In theory and in some practical way.Banovicmiki14 (talk) 04:01, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- With three editors against the suggested series of changes by Banovicmiki14 as unhelpful on the whole and poorly sourced, and no other editor in favor, that's enough to establish consensus on that issue. Discussion can now move on to other details on the lede. Thanks to all. --A D Monroe III(talk) 16:29, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Continued BRD on LedeEdit
I believe the current lede is agreed to establish that warfare is primary purpose of military, and that military forces are often given additional non-military roles during peacetime.
AFAIK, there are still some points unresolved:
1. Deterrence and peacekeeping should be noted (TBD)
2. "Armed force" links here; its merge into lede needs to be improved (TBD)
3. Sources (respected secondary or tertiary) are needed (TBD)
An editor, 22.214.171.124, recently tried to correct the "armed force" issue by reverting the lede to the one following the merge of Armed force to this article. It better explains how "armed force" and "military" are related, but changes the definition of military back to any state-owned professional organization that uses lethal force, which could include secret police and prison guards, and excludes any army that isn't part of a recognized state, which excludes half of the armies in all civil wars, etc. I've reverted that for now.
The current lede has "armed force", but doesn't really define it, except that it links "armed" to weapon and "force" to organisation. I agree this is a poor way to do this, but it's all I could come up with before the problems covered above started. It's hard to say "X is a Y that..." if Y also has to be explained.
- For point 2, I was thinking of removing "armed forces" from the first sentence and replacing it with "organised force of heavily-armed people", and leaving the "armed force" term itself to be better discussed in the 2nd paragraph, where it can be made bold to direct readers following the Armed forces link to this article. Comments? --A D Monroe III(talk) 17:12, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- For point 3, I've found some references, but they have much wider definitions than our current article covers -- basically anything having to do with soldiers or warfare, including uses that are more like adjectives, such as military schools and military grade. I do not recommend expanding the article to cover those, as it's already long and unfocused, and all links to this article current use it as described in the current article. But these wider uses of the term military are worth mentioning, via the "See also" heading if nothing else. So I'm going through the "See also" section to clean it up and expand it to cover these, at least until these related uses are incorporated into the main article. --A D Monroe III(talk) 18:50, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well it is not agreed, indeed nice try, and good little tricks to keep unsourced, not quality, essay style lead. "Half of armies in civil wars" how many civil wars and how many armies in present day and how many can compare with organised recognised militaries? Focus should be and must be on present day and current time. Well not many indeed. Peacekeeping and deterence seems familiar of course I first mentioned in my edits. Group of heavily armed people, hmmm wrong, police and even drug cartels can be organised groups of well and heavy armed people. Militaries are complex orgs and well it is like that. Search for the definition should start with looking different laws, constitutions, and official websites and how it is defined accros the world. That is logical way. If some user has something against how countries use militaries and some arguments against some militiaries or arguments for them, should make personal blog and there preach. Here we talk about facts not definitions from own heads in own words etc. Facts are facts. If my edits stayed I bet noone would remove any of it. I will look for my sourced content and will restore it when I have some more time, with some minor edits. Banovicmiki14 (talk) 04:41, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- The only one not agreeing is you, Banovicmiki14. No one on Wikipedia is allowed to edit against consensus.
- You mentioned "in preset day". This subject covers all of history, so present day cannot be the only focus.
- Once again, we've all agreed on adding peacekeeping and deterrence; why keep repeating they need to be added? Please, make a suggestion on how to improve the current consensus version to add them; that would be very helpful. Just wanting the whole lede your way without consensus is less than useless here.
- We've also agreed that warfare is the primary distinction for military; no one is stating that "armed people" is sufficient. Please stop making straw man arguments.
- We've also agreed on getting WP:reliable sources. The sources you've found so far are not acceptable; they where all primary sources, biased, and do not support any part of the edits you've pushed. We need reliable, authoritative, secondary or tertiary sources. We welcome any suggestion you may have for any such sources. By the definition of WP, those are the facts, and everything else is WP:OR.
- Rather than dismiss the whole of all comments, please respond specifically to separate points being made by others. That's what discussion means. "Everyone but me is wrong about everything so I'll do it my way" is the exact opposite of discussion.
- --A D Monroe III(talk) 15:39, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks A D Monroe for holding the ring. I suggest the opening sentence read: 'A military is an armed organization primarily intended for warfare (also known as armed forces).' And then move on to other issues. I think 'typically officially authorised by a sovereign state' should be deleted. The usual categories are 'state armed forces' and 'non-state armed groups' (which has its own WP page, by the way). Other essential info is the common division between army, navy and air force (although many state and non-state militaries lack an air force and/or navy), the organization's characteristically heirarchical nature, and some of the principal other purposes for which the organization is used, particularly peacekeeping, internal security, and responses to civil crises (earthquakes, strikes). The second two paras of the lede don't really belong there - they don't make first-order points - I suggest deleting them. Fugitivedave (talk) 10:37, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
- Much thanks for your suggestions; I agree, except for some details.
- I think your wording for the first sentence is easily an improvement on what's there now, even if not perfect. I'll make your change and allow for further future improvements.
- Rather than just deleting reference to sovereign state, maybe reword to make a better contrast to a link to non-state armed forces, such as "though some are non-state armed forces". Since by far the most common concept of military is state-owned, I think it's important to keep it emphasized. I'll see if I can come up with some pithy contrasting wording, but suggestions are welcome, of course. For that, I'll need the correct name of that non-state article. Can you provide that?
- I agree that the current wording of Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines/Coast Guard is somewhat US-centric. I'm not too worried about that, since the US Military alone is 1/3rd of the world's military, but okay with any way of improving that.
- The strict hierarchical organization is an excellent point; any military without that is just an armed mob. I was thinking of replacing "organised" to "highly-organised" in the first sentence to introduce this, but a more complete additional note would be good. Perhaps an added paragraph?
- I agree that the last two paragraphs, once the first is improved, aren't strictly necessary for the lede, but the lede the lede is supposed to be summary of the whole article, which is currently nothing but disjointed random sub-sections with zero flow. So I want to leave those paras there as a starting framework for a summary, and likely even expand them, while the rest of the article is sorted out. (Note that I'm also adding to the "See also" section as a start for this start.) --A D Monroe III(talk) 15:48, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
For 2, the first line reads "also known as an armed force". This could be edited to, also known as armed forces. That's because in general, such forces are more than just one organisation in each country. People outside the US also refer to them as armed forces. Doing that would make it clear. --Specac (talk) 15:21, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
- Good point. I used "armed force" originally because the paragraph starts out with "military" as singular, and switching between singular and plural forms of the subject in a sentence is possibly confusing, or at least poor grammar. To incorporate your suggestion, I tweaked the wording to allow for the singular/plural switching with "armed forces". Please review this edit. --A D Monroe III(talk) 16:14, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
That's good because it's clear. I have heard and read both singular and plural used in different countries so, mentioning both is helpful. You've made some great contributions. --Specac (talk) 21:19, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Continued edit war on ledeEdit
And IP editor has replaced User:Banovicmiki14 in repeatedly reverting the lede disruptively without regard to consensus. I have reverted them again, and will ask for page-protection if this continues (unless someone else beats me to it.) --A D Monroe III(talk) 16:46, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Link Military branchEdit
I recently put in a link to the Military branch article in the introduction of this article. Someone seems to have removed it without explaining why. The introduction already has a line that says It may consist of one or more military branches, so why not include a link to the Military branch article, in that line? --Specac (talk) 00:05, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, your edit was in the middle of an edit war over the lede. Technically, with the lede under discussion per WP:BRD, editors should not edit it without consensus, but your edit is small and uncontroversial. I restored it. --A D Monroe III(talk) 00:30, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Amateur ranking of military strengthEdit
Does giving any significant weightage to Attack helicopters make sense? If not, why have they been significant weightage here? Also, using the number of Aircraft Carriers to gauge a military’s strength is a USA-oriented yardstick. According to the many philosophies, Aircraft carriers are highly vulnerable to saturation attacks by Cruise missiles. Anyway, the least I expect of the WP community is to not even consider attack helicopters as a macroscopic criterion. Cheers, Vaibhavafro (talk) 10:27, 31 August 2019 (UTC)