Talk:Maria Anna Sophia of Saxony

Proposed move to Maria Anna Sophia of Saxony

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Moved to Maria Anna Sophia of Saxony. The weight of the evidence seems to be in favor of this move.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 20:26, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

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I have tried to rename this article for two reasons. First, the children of King Augustus III of Poland were not referred to in their lifetimes as dukes or duchesses. On the talk page of Maria Josepha of Saxony (1731-1767), Lethiere posted information showing that both Maria Anna Sophia and one of her sisters, Maria Amalia of Saxony, were referred to as a princesses, not duchesses. On the same page, I provide three contemporary letters from Maurice de Saxe, King Louis XV of France and Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II that two other sisters, Maria Josepha and Kunigunde, were also referred to as princesses. If these young ladies were referred to as princesses by the rulers of France and Austria, I see no reason why Wikipedia should call them by a title, duchess, that was not used at the time to describe them. Noel S McFerran thinks this is a controversial move, but he cannot provide any contemporary 18th century letters to prove that anyone called these young ladies duchesses during their lifetimes. Second, I think all the articles on the children of Augustus III of Poland should be named in the same manner for consistency's sake. BoBo (talk) 05:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Noel S McFerran (talk), you are the only person to offer a source that implies that the children of Augustus III of Poland may not have been called princes or princesses. As Frania has pointed out on the talk page of Maria Josepha of Saxony (1731-1767), neither French or German Wikipedia call Marie-Josèphe a duchess prior to her marriage. She also points out that French author Évelyne Lever refers to Marie-Josèphe only as a princesse. In addition, I have given three English-speaking sources that call either Marie-Josèphe or one of her sisters a princess. I am now giving you a fourth English-speaking source that specifically refers to the children of Augustus III of Poland as princes and princesses. In Hubert Cole's 1964 biography of Louis François Armand du Plessis, duc de Richelieu titled First Gentleman of the Bedchamber, he writes on page 166:

...the young Dauphine descended the palace steps with Richelieu on one side, and the commander-in-chief of her father's Polish army on the other. Her mother, her sister, the princess Maria Amalia, and her brothers, the princes Xavier and Karl, burst into tears...

BoBo (talk) 10:56, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

My point now is that, besides the children of Augustus III of Poland being considered princes and princesses by 18th Century royalty (Louis XV and Joseph II), they are also considered princes and princesses in modern English-speaking literature. It would be interesting if you could find a modern biography that explicitly refers to any of them in their youth prior to marriage as solely dukes or duchesses. BoBo (talk) 11:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I copy here below the response I gave on the talk page about Maria Josepha of Saxony:

I do not dispute that Maria Josepha is called "a princess" in many works both English-language and French-language. What is, however, clear is that she did not have the title "Princess of Saxony", a title not used until the nineteenth-century. Please look at the Almanach de Gotha to see that all the cadets of the Albertine branch of the House of Wettin were styled duke/duchess (and not prince/princess) until the 1830s.

The use in French-language letters of the term princesse in reference to Maria Josepha does not change the facts about the title she actually held. In a similar way, Maria Josepha's husband the Dauphin Louis is often referred to in passing in various works as "a prince"; that does not mean, however, that he had the title "Prince of France". Noel S McFerran (talk) 14:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) says the following: In general, the convention is to title queens consort and empresses consort as "{Name} of {Place}" and grand duchesses consort, duchesses consort, princesses consort, etc as "{Title} {Name} of {Place}" where the "Place" and applicable titles (in the cases of those below the rank of queen) are held premaritally or by birth. Maria Anna Sophia was not a queen consort or empress consort, and therefore the title of her article should not be in the form "{Name} of {Place}", but rather "{Title} {Name} of {Place}". If BoBo wishes to alter the convention, then the discussion should occur at that page. Noel S McFerran (talk) 14:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Noel S McFerran (talk), you are clearly overlooking the fact that not only do modern English and French authors describe Marie-Josèphe as a princess so do her own relatives, Maurice de Saxe and Louis XV of France. I have previously linked to two letters ([1] and [2]) that explicitly refer to the future dauphine as Princess Marie-Josèphe, not Duchess Marie-Josèphe. Are you saying that Maurice de Saxe and King Louis XV of France didn't know the proper way to refer to members of their own families? In addition, you neglect the letter [3] written by the future Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II that clearly calls Marie-Josèphe's younger sister, Princess Kunigunde of Saxony. I think this clearly points to the conclusion that the European rulers of the 18th Century regarded the daughters (including the unmarried ones like Kunigunde) of Augustus III of Poland to be Princesses of Saxony.

I am not overlooking anything.

1. The Wikipedia naming conventions clearly state that only the consorts of a king or an emperor have articles with no noble title in the title of the article. Your naming proposal fails on this count.

2. Please look at an authoritative work about titles and styles (like the Almanach de Gotha). Letters, including those from royalty, are notoriously inaccurate when it comes to titles. A very similar case is Clementina Sobieski. She is commonly called "Princess Clementina Sobieski" (or Sobieska) in spite of the fact that the family had never ever received the title "prince". The reason is exactly the same as with Maria Anna Sophia. Augustus III was the elected king of Poland as was the grandfather of Clementina, John III Sobieski. The daughters of Augustus III and the granddaughters of John III are therefore sometimes referred to - especially in popular writing like letters - as "princess".

3. In addition to an authoritative work like the Almanach de Gotha, please look at an official text such as the 1831 Saxon constitution where the heir to the throne is styled not "prince" or "crown prince" von Sachsen, but instead as "Herzog zu Sachsen".

4. It would be perfectly reasonable for the article to include an explanation that Maria Anna Sophia is often called "princess" in spite of the fact that she did not actually have that title. Noel S McFerran (talk) 20:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I think all of your points can be debated:

1. As far the Wikipedia naming conventions are concerned, because I have provided ample evidence from the 18th Century that the sisters of Maria Anna Sophia were described within their family milieu as princesses, it can be argued that the correct name of this article should be Princess Maria Anna Sophia of Saxony, not Duchess Maria Anna Sophia of Saxony. In fact, here are two German sites which directly call her Princess Maria Anna of Saxony. They are from two of the palaces that played a central role in her life: Schloss Pillnitz in Saxony where she married and Schloss Nymphenburg in Bavaria where she lived after her marriage. Both describe her as Prinzessin Maria Anna von Sachsen, not Herzogin Maria Anna von Sachsen:

1)http://www.kamelie-pillnitz.de/index.php?entry_id=9&lang=en&lang=de

2)http://www.nymphenburg.com/de/nymphenburg/history/house-of-wittelsbach/kurfuerst-max-iii-joseph.html

It would appear that besides Maurice de Saxe, Louis XV of France and Joseph II, modern Saxon and Bavarian Germans regard the daughters of Augustus III of Poland as Princesses of Saxony. It has now been presented to you in English, French and German, that no one called these young ladies duchesses. You yourself have provided no evidence, 18th Century or modern, that directly calls any of the daughters duchesses. For good measure, here is an Italian source to show that in Italy that they too call the daughters princesses. In it, the wife of Charles III of Spain is called Princess Maria Amalia of Saxony in English and S.R.M. Di Maria Amalia Regina Delle Due Sicilie Principessa Di Polonia, E Sassonia in Italian:

http://www.racollection.org.uk/ixbin/indexplus?_IXACTION_=file&_IXFILE_=templates/full/person.html&_IXTRAIL_=Names%C2%A0A-Z&person=9793

2. The Almanach de Gotha was not always considered accurate in its earlier editions. The Wikipedia article on it clearly relates how it was considered biased by some, including Napoleon Bonaparte.

3. It is possible that the Saxon constitution you note does not accurately reflect the titles and styles used by the ruling family of Saxony in the 18th Century. As I have repeatedly mentioned, you have been unable to produce even one source that explicitly describes any of Augustus III of Poland's daughters as duchesses before their marriages. I, however, have produced multiple sources in more than one language that calls them princesses.

4. Why mention a fact you have not proven? You have not proven that any of August III of Poland's daughters were not born princesses. As I have said before, where are some direct references to the young ladies as duchesses? BoBo (talk) 22:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I just couldn't help noticing this: S.R.M. Di Maria Amalia Regina Delle Due Sicilie Principessa Di Polonia, E Sassonia. A source which makes up a never existing title such as "Princess of Poland" could not convince me that the daughters of Augustus III were Princesss of Saxony. Surtsicna (talk) 23:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

My point is simply that in more than one language (I have given examples in four) that daughters of Augustus III of Poland are called princesses. Let's not forget that there are two issues here. One is how the daughters were described by contemporary 18th Century royalty. The second is how they are described in the modern era. In both cases, they are described as princesses and not duchesses. BoBo (talk) 23:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

This is copied from the talk page of Maria Josepha of Saxony (1731-1767) article:

Hello! This is Frania.

Are we trying to split the atom here ???

(1) From German Wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurf%C3%BCrstentum_Sachsen

Das Kurfürstentum Sachsen (Kursachsen, veraltet: Chursachsen) war ein Territorium des Heiligen Römischen Reiches Deutscher Nation.

Das Territorium entstand durch die *Erhebung* des *Herzogtum Sachsen-Wittenberg* zum *Kurfürstentum* durch Kaiser Karl IV. in der Goldenen Bulle von 1356. Es existierte in der Zeit von 1356 bis 1806. Das Kurfürstentum Sachsen war der *Nachfolgestaat* des Herzogtums Sachsen-Wittenberg und ging 1806 in dem neu entstandenen Königreich Sachsen auf.

Herzogtum Sachsen-Wittenberg = *Duchy of Saxony-Wittenberg* was elevated to Kurfürstentum = *Electorate of Saxony* in 1356.

Kurfürstentum is governed by a *Kurfürst* = *Prince Elector* *Fürst* = *Prince*.

That is where the word *Prince* came to be applied to the *Herzog*. So whether the Prince-Elector of Saxony is in fact a Duke or a Prince is something we can argue about until we run out of breath.

(2) Here is a copy/paste from the Almanach de Gotha http://almanachdegotha.org/_wsn/page4.html to which Noel S. McFerran is referring us:

e) Louis, Dauphin de Viennois (Versailles 4 Sep 1729-Fontainebleau 20 Dec 1765); m.1st by proxy at Madrid 18 Dec 1744 and in person at Versailles 23 Feb 1745 Infanta Maria Teresa of Spain (Madrid 11 Jun 1726-Versailles 22 Jul 1746); m.2d by proxy at Dresden 10 Jan 1747 and in person at Versailles 9 Feb 1747 Josepha Pss of Saxony (Dresden 4 Nov 1731-Versailles 13 Mar 1767)

If I am not mistaken, *Pss* stands for *Princess*.

Frania W. (talk) 00:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Here is another copy/paste from the Almanach de Gotha http://almanachdegotha.org/_wsn/page3.html :

V. Marie Christine Johanna Josephe Antonie (Vienna 13 May 1742-Vienna 24 Jun 1798); m.Vienna 7/8 Apr 1766 Albert Pr of Saxony, Duke of Teschen (Moritzburg 11 Jul 1738-Vienna 10 Feb 1822)

Marie Christine is Marie Antoinette's older sister. Albert is Marie-Josèphe's and Maria Anna's younger brother. He is described as *Pr* (Prince) of Saxony.

BoBo (talk) 03:08, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Here is the page in German Wikipedia concerning Augustus III of Poland:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_III._(Polen)

It should be noted that all of his children, including Maria Anna Sophia, are listed as princes/princesses of Poland and Saxony. Maria Anna Sophia is described as Königliche Prinzessin von Polen und Prinzessin von Sachsen, as are all of her sisters. At this point, I am in favor of renaming this article, Princess Maria Anna Sophia of Saxony, in accordance with the Wikipedia naming policy that Noel S McFerran (talk) mentions earlier.

As an aside, I would also like to point out to Surtsicna (talk) that in the Augustus III article in German Wikipedia all of Augustus III's daughters are described as princesses of Poland, Königliche Prinzessin von Polen. Although I have not read the Polish Constitution or laws in place during the reign of Augustus III, it makes me wonder if indeed there were rules in place at the time that allowed the children of the elected Saxon king of Poland to bear the title of either Prince or Princess of Poland. I don't want to go too far with this line, however, in that I fully admit that I am not an expert in 18th Century Polish law. BoBo (talk) 04:01, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Reputable sources

I have repeatedly asked other editors to look at reputable sources such as the Almanach de Gotha and even given a link to a site which includes the full-text of most volumes [4]. Perhaps I should not be surprised when an editor mentions the website almanachdegotha.org. This is DEFINITELY NOT the source to which I referred; anybody with the slightest knowledge of noble titles would know that. The website is a totally unscholarly and quite amateurish production. The books, even with their biases and errors (present in virtually all works), are still recognised as THE source about European royalty. Noel S McFerran (talk) 14:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I think Noel S McFerran (talk) is being evasive. Once again, he is not offering any 18th Century proof that the children of Augustus III of Poland were not princes and princesses. In fact, the 1821 edition of the Almanach de Gotha (the earliest edition available on the site he links to) explicitly describes one brother of Maria Anna Sophia as a prince and one sister as a princess:

Roi Frédéric Auguste, n. 23. Dec. 1750, succ. à son père l'Electeur Frédéric Chrét. 17. Dec. 1763, sous la tutele de son Oncle le Prince Xavier, prend lui même le Gouvernement, 15. Sept. 1765..."

[5]

2. Marie Cuenégonde, n. 10 Nov. 1740, Princesse Abbesse des Chapit. sécularisés d'Essen et Thorn.

[6]

The source also describes another brother, Prince Albert of Saxony, Duke of Teschen as a duke:

1. D. Albert, Duc de Saxe-Teschen, n. 11. Juill. 1738. Feldmaréchal de l'Empereur d'Autriche. Veuf le 24. Juin. 1798, de Marie Christine, F. de l'Empereur Romain François I.

[7]

It is unclear, however, if the title "duc" refers to Albert's birth title or title as the Duke of Teschen.

17:31, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.