Talk:Lunar Polar Exploration Mission

Chandrayaan-3 name has been re-assigned to second landing attempt.

Article would need a re-write as Chandrayaan-3 name which was earlier suggested for brewing JAXA/ISRO project by K Sivan in his interview. has apparently been reassigned.

For our next mission — Chandrayaan-3 — which will be accomplished in collaboration with JAXA (Japanese Space Agency), we will invite other countries too to participate with their payloads. We are working on the configuration of Chandrayaan-3, and will decide on the launch schedule at a later date.

According to article above ISRO is quickly working out a lander/rover configuration with detachable propulsion module to retry landing on lunar surface by November 2020!  Ohsin  23:36, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Hello. I am not sure what you mean. The name seems the same, and from the beginning Chandrayaan-3 was meant to perform the second lunar landing and deploy a rover in partnership with Japan. The date was moved to 2020, but that is it. Rowan Forest (talk) 00:40, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Also, that report makes no mention of a sample-return. Maybe by cancelling that aspect they can simplify the mission push the launch to next year. Should we delete the sample-return aspect? Rowan Forest (talk) 00:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Both appear very different and can't shelve three years out of blue. JAXA/ISRO project is still in study phase with lander that is much more capable. This looks like a simple pivot on Chandrayaan-3 name as it might be used for this landing re-attempt instead of JAXA/ISRO collab. Interview by K Sivan was given before Chandrayaan-2 landing setback. Also as I have said earlier, sample-return goal has no recent official validation. Even Chandrayaaan-2 was at one point supposed to collect samples, have robotic arm, have two rovers and what not, all these plans changed with time as challenges piled up. But Chandrayaan-3 name could still be a speculated one, so we could move the article under Selene-R name.  Ohsin  07:57, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

 Comment: Rename this article to some Chandrayaan-4 or some other future mission. This mission would have happened, if ISRO had demonstrated soft landing capability. Until, that happens, no agency will tie-up with ISRO for landing on moon. Next mission from ISRO to moon will have only lander & rover. I believe, it will reuse existing orbiter for communication with earth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knowshare1 (talk • contribs) 01:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

 Comment: If ISRO hasn't mastered soft-landing yet, why would they partner with JAXA to build a sample-return Mission? According to earlier reports, ISRO was to provide the lander. So now that CY-2 lander didn't succeed, why would ISRO go ahead with that partnership? Neither does JAXA know how to soft-land on the moon... I think article needs to be rewritten. Also, the article currently says (lead section):Chandrayaan-3 (Sanskrit: [tɕɐndɽaːjaːn]; transl. Moon-craft,[6][7] About this soundpronunciation (help·info)) is a robotic sample-return[8][9] lunar mission concept by the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) and Japan's space agency JAXA[10][11] that would send a lunar rover and lander to explore the south pole region of the Moon in November 2020[4] JAXA is likely to provide the H3 launch vehicle and the rover, while ISRO would be responsible for the lander.[5][11][12]. This is WP:SYNTH.— Vaibhavafro ^💬 02:28, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

What I meant was that we can’t assume that this new November-2020 mission is being undertaken in collaboration with Japan.— Vaibhavafro ^💬 04:09, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

The multiple cited references state clearly: "Chandrayaan-3 Will Be A Sample Return Mission". So there was no synthesis. Now, is there a an "additional" mission to be launched previous to Chandrayaan-3? The latest report by The Times Of India names the November 2020 mission "Chandrayaan-3" and I see no mention of a name-change. Please see my questions below. Thank you for your patience to me. Rowan Forest (talk) 21:24, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Only one extremely dated reference from Aviation Week quoted an official on their ambition of sample-return objective on what could've been CY-3. I think Indian media just dug it up and spun/mistook SELENE-R's sampling objective into 'sample return' and Sivan prematurely called it Chandrayaan-3 while this term is never used so far by Japanese side. A sample return objective is too defining to be not mentioned in any official literature so far. And then came the setback on landing for which apparently ISRO was completely unprepared and dealt it through what I'd call a misinformation campaign and are now going for a repeat attempt using same lander/rover hardware with some modifications and a detachable propulsion module or else proposed date wouldn't be so close. ToI report is now referring it as CY-3 but nothing official about it.  Ohsin  06:02, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Another report by PTI confirming it independently. And one more article commenting on confusion related to name 'Chandrayaan-3'.  Ohsin  10:11, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

The PTI news only repeats that "a report on the proposed Chandrayaan-3" is in the process; I see no change of any kind, other than a new launch date. The second link above by "The Wire" also calls it Chandrayaan-3: "the organisation was working with its Japanese counterpart, JAXA, to embark on yet another Moon mission together. At that time, Sivan had called that mission Chandrayaan 3, but with the new announcement, the ISRO-JAXA mission is likely to be rechristened to avoid confusion.". To me, this clearly means that Chandrayaan-3 may or may not change name, but it is still being planned in partnership with Japan. Rowan Forest (talk) 21:49, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

PTI is claiming they have independently confirmed the Times of India report and quoting an unnamed senior official for what it is worth and I used The Wire article to make my earlier point clearer about possibility of reassigned name. For us it might be better to refer to JAXA/ISRO project as SELENE-R.  Ohsin  06:02, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Please, lets review the alleged changes, because I'm not understanding (keep in mind that the concept is still under study and apparently no funding has been allocated yet):

• Chandrayaan-3 will or will not be in partnership with Japan?
• Chandrayaan-3 is being renamed Selene-R? (The Times of India report says nothing about Selene-R)
• Is there an additional ISRO mission to be launched previous to Chandrayaan-3?
• Could it be that Selene-R is the name JAXA calls their own participation in Chandrayaan-3? See: [[1]

Thank you, Rowan Forest (talk) 21:14, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Basics first, JAXA/ISAS has been referring to their lander/rover sampling concept as SELENE-R prior to having ISRO as a collaborator for providing lander, which would be required to deliver 500 kg payload to lunar south pole. K Sivan referred to this JAXA/ISRO collaboration as Chandrayaan-3 in an interview before CY-2 landing setback. Now ISRO is in awkward place due to overconfidence and also they haven't demonstrated capability to soft-land on which this future JAXA/ISRO collaboration might heavily depend. What recent Times of India and PTI reports are referring to is a completely separate mission to reattempt landing and gain confidence in their capabilities, both reports are calling it Chandrayaan-3 but there is no official word yet on either name or approval. We can be on safe side, reverting few recent edits on this page and move it to SELENE-R and either keep the speculated reattempt content to CY-2 page or create a new article, I think it is still too early to start a new page.  Ohsin  06:02, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Per the article suggesting a Moon mission in November 2020] (), Chandrayaan-3 is a tentative name.

• As the mission won't include an orbiter, the tentative name may be changed to Cdy-2R or something like that around the time while mission is executed.
• Mission is a replacement for lander-rover module of Chandrayaan-2. Obviously won't be the mission we were planning with JAXA whose reports emerged in 2017. We don't whether it will go piggybacked on a Japanese H3. Nothing can be ruled as nothing is official at first place.
• There is no official statement yet. Just "sources" of TOI.

I will hereby support restoration of previous revision of the article and make a new section in Chandrayaan-2 to mention about this proposal. Will be best way to balance all the confusions. @Rowan Forest: and other esteemed may make concenus and let us know what to do. So that we can move ahead with changes. I will be making another section in Chandrayaan-2 restoring this article to old version (till any official clarification emerges) soon once concenus is there. Aman Kumar Goel^(Talk) 09:01, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

In ToI report the word tentative is used for the detachable propulsion module and not 'Chandrayaan-3' itself.

"Tentatively called the propulsion module, it will help in taking the landing module — which will have the rover sitting inside the lander — to the lunar orbit."

From what I know they did develop such a propulsion module called 'PAM-G' (Payload Assist Module) to deliver Russian GLONASS-M sats to MEO when launched via GSLV Mk II, a hot fire test was done too but due to turn of events the module never flew and has no space heritage.  Ohsin  11:37, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ohsin: @Aman.kumar.goel: @Vaibhavafro: @Knowshare1: I trust you guys have the pulse first-hand. Ohsin noted this report: ""At that time, Sivan had called that mission Chandrayaan 3, but with the new announcement, the ISRO-JAXA mission is likely to be rechristened to avoid confusion." [2]". I take it that : 1) This new mission, planned for November 2020, will exclude JAXA and will be a repeat landing demonstration by ISRO only; this new mission is now named Chandrayaan-3. 2) The large ISRO/JAXA mission proposed for 2023 will likely have another name. Is this correct? Cheers, Rowan Forest (talk) 16:46, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the only reason we were associating CY-3 name with JAXA/ISRO project was due to Sivan's comments. New proposed mission has nothing to do with JAXA and two media outlets independently referred to it as CY-3 so there is confusion around it with zero official information. On other hand SELENE-R was JAXA's lander/rover concept and after roping in ISRO in 2017 they are still referring to it as same, we can expect it to have different name as it comes out of study phase but SELENE-R is the only term for it now without any confusion around it. So my suggestion is to revert last few edits here and move it to SELENE-R. As for new proposed reattempt, since there is enough uncertainty around it we can still use CY-2 article to collate information about it and if it becomes good enough then setup new article for it with whatever name it earns. Indian media is doing wonders now using this wiki article to cook stories already..  Ohsin  16:51, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ohsin: Got it. Sorry it took me this long time to understand this. If we perform the usual move procedure & discussion, we will have to wait at least 2 weeks to move it, which will worsen the misunderstanding. I will do the move now to SELENE-R and take the flak. Please assist me by adding the pertinent information and best references at CY2. Cheers, Rowan Forest (talk) 17:01, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

I hope we now cover the concept of the proposed updates. Although the name(s) are not official, it should help immensely to address the confusion. I expect more details and updates will follow. Rowan Forest (talk) 17:51, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Should the CY-3 redirect go to Chandrayaan-2#Mission_repeat or just leave it as it is?  Ohsin  18:38, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes. Done. Rowan Forest (talk) 18:44, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for coming in late, but JAXA does not use the moniker 'SELENE-R' for any mission. SELENE-R (R for resource) and SELENE/RP were used by the SELENE-2 team to refer to their mission after they decided to land it on the Lunar south pole. The last time the name 'SELENE-R' was used was back in 2017, and since then I'm pretty sure no one in JAXA has used it (at least in official documents). For reference, in the annual Space Science Symposium held every January, the SELENE-2 team used SELENE-R in their 2017 presentation, while in their 2018 presenation, there's not a single mention of SELENE-R. I don't remember anyone in both ISRO and JAXA calling their joint mission as SELENE-R. The title of this page should be renamed to what is actually being used like Lunar Polar Mission.[3][4] Kind regards, Hms1103 (talk) 08:17, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

@Hms1103: Following are cited in article and are very recent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8njHDtwnx8&t=857 (Interview of ISAS's Prof. Fujimoto Masaki)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2Uk0Had9Tc&t=182 (A presentation by Prof. Fujimoto Masaki)

http://stage.tksc.jaxa.jp/compe/jouhou/FY2019-0010.pdf (Page 12, refers SELENE-R) many such recent PDFs can be found.  Ohsin  12:17, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ohsin:SELENE-R was a different mission, it involved a JAXA lander, and a rover provided by another nation.[5][6] In the current mission architecture of the ISRO-JAXA mission, India provides the lander and JAXA provides the rover. This is the exact opposite of SELENE-R. In the two video links you provided, the speaker is Masaki Fujimoto, who is based at the Institute of Space and Astronautical Science (ISAS).[7][8] The ISRO-JAXA mission, meanwhile is a project of the JAXA Space Exploration Center. I won't be surprised if he mixed up the name of projects from a different JAXA department. As for the pdf http://stage.tksc.jaxa.jp/compe/jouhou/FY2019-0010.pdf titled 月離着陸実証(HERACLES)ミッションの紹介と検討状況, the ISRO-JAXA mission is called 'JAXA's Resource Prospector' in page 2, the '月移動探査'(Lunar mobile exploration) in page 3, 'SELENE-R' in page 12. In page 15, it even mentions SELENE-2, which has been dead for a while now. This is a pdf for HERACLES, a joint JAXA-ESA-CSA lunar sample return mission, and it has outdated information for the other lunar missions. One example is how SLIM is depicted, it shows the probe as landing vertically when it now doesn't.[9]

Naming this page SELENE-R per the three sources you provided is ill-advised per WP:COMMONNAME. Within 2019, the following materials all refer to the ISRO-JAXA mission as Lunar Polar Exploration: [10][11][12][13] Other than the ones here, several other documents says '月極域探査', which is Lunar Polar Exploration spelled in Japanese.[14] In the JAXA-NASA Joint Statement on Cooperation in Lunar Exploration published in September 2019, the following is stated:

 The leaders highlighted NASA’s participation in JAXA’s SLIM (Smart Lander for Investigating the Moon) mission and discussions regarding NASA’s potential participation in the planned JAXA-Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) Lunar Polar Exploration mission, as well as JAXA’s sharing of acquired observational data from those missions to contribute to NASA’s lunar exploration goals and objectives.

The ISRO-JAXA mission is described as the Lunar Polar Exploration mission, and there's no mention of a SELENE-R. Finally, in this presentation of the Japanese Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology from April 2019, in page 17 it says that, in March 2018 JOINT REPORT on a Joint Lunar Polar Exploration Mission Between ISRO and JAXA was published. No mention of SELENE-R or Chandrayaan-3. Just Lunar Polar Exploration. Regards, Hms1103 (talk)

Yesterday, I considered and performed the move to SELENE-R as a temporary "place holder". My understanding is that only Japan uses that name and never for the joint mission, but I yielded to Ohsin. I think that Lunar Polar Mission (which I missed yesterday) is a much better name because that is what ISRO has used. Rowan Forest (talk) 15:36, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

@Hms1103 and Rowan Forest: I agree. Mission definitions can change over time carrying old name, I assume 'SELENE-R' name here is also dragging along in 2018-19 official documents while they have settled to having lander done by a collaborator and rebrand whole thing suitably. And while I wouldn't dismiss ISAS's Masaki Fujimoto when he is giving detailed presentations in English to English audience very consciously using the name SELENE-R along "Lunar Polar Exploration Mission" and JAXA document is also doing same though Japanese text reads more like statements rather than mission names for example "小型月着陸実証機 (SLIM)" gives me "Small moon landing demonstration machine (SLIM)" via Google translate but yes 'SELENE-R' pops-up intermittently and might be on its way out.

In NASA/JAXA joint statement it is referred as "JAXA-Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) Lunar Polar Exploration mission" use of 'Indian' here doesn't inspire confidence but then 'Lunar Polar Exploration' part uses suggestive capitalization. And ISRO press release also refers it plainly as "ISRO – JAXA lunar polar exploration mission."

At IAC too 'lunar polar exploration' part is used by JAXA but they added to it SELENE-R once in IAC 2017.

IAC-16.A3.2A.2 JAPANESE LUNAR POLAR EXPLORATION MISSION Tatsuaki Hashimoto, Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), Japan

IAC-17.A3.2B.4 Japanese Lunar Polar Exploration Mission - SELENE-R - Takeshi Hoshino, Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), Japan

IAC-18.A3.2A.6 Japanese Lunar Polar Exploration Mission Takeshi Hoshino, Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), Japan

IAC-19.A3.2A.6 CURRENT STATUS OF JAPANESE LUNAR POLAR EXPLORATION MISSION Takeshi Hoshino, Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), Japan

I can settle for 'Lunar Polar Exploration' name. Very generic it may be but it appears to be used by both JAXA and ISRO. See for example this poster (Source tweet (ignore Solar Orbiter in graphic for Aditya-L1) from an ISRO event where they gave a rough road-map for their future exploration missions.  Ohsin  22:05, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Alright, it seems we reached consensus on a better place holder name until an official name is announced for this mission proposal: Lunar Polar Exploration Mission, now favored by BrownHairdGirl (although she deleted her comment), Hms1103, myself (Rowan Forest) and Ohsin. I will perform that move next. Thank you. Rowan Forest (talk) 00:45, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

References

LPSC 2020 papers

Objective and Configuration of a Planned Lunar Polar Exploration [#1830]: JAXA is planning a lunar polar exploration mission with ISRO. We discuss an objective, configuration, and results of landing site analyses of the mission.

Observation Scenario for Volatiles of Lunar Polar Exploration Mission [#1852]: We are reporting on the current study status of water-ice observation procedure in a lunar polar exploration mission that is planned by JAXA.

High-Precision Digital Terrain Model of a Candidate Landing Site Near Lunar South Pole Using Multi-Image Shape-from-Shading [#1251]: Shape-from-shading and image co-registration can improve the LROC NAC DTM quality of lunar south pole significantly, which will aid in future landing missions.

Landing Site Analysis in the Lunar South Polar Region for Lunar Polar Exploration Mission [#1772]: We analyzed the illumination and Earth visibility, and found some suitable landing site candidates on the lunar south polar region.

 Ohsin  16:59, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Help

Me accidentally delete some stuff, me don’t know how to get it back Fewcada (talk) 02:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Akshadev helpfully reverted your change. Be more careful next time. Arlo James Barnes 20:12, 31 January 2024 (UTC)