Talk:List of flags by country

Non-countries listed

Some of the entries in this list, such as Saint Barthélemy (a.k.a St. Bart's), are not actually countries, but are territories of another country. However, the country flag shown in that example is France's flag, the country it is a territory of. So, should non-countries be listed at all? Or is it OK because it points to the main country's flag, as opposed to the local flag (like the Flag of Saint Barthélemy)? In other words, should we cut this down to a list of existing countries and nothing else? Based on the article's title and introduction that would seem to be what the list should be. -- HiEv 14:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

KOSOVO is not a country! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.219.28 (talk) 23:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Its independence has been recognized. International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence seems to have plenty of detail and references. Given the fact that your IP address comes from "Telekom Srbija", I can see why you're saying that. —LOL ^T/_C 02:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Western Sahara case

Western Sahara isn't a country. It's a non self-governing territory actually administrated by the kingdom of Morocco. There is no republic in Western Sahara. SADR which is the auto-proclamed republic of the Polisario front has nothing to do with Western Sahara. SADR is taking place in Tindouf camps south Algeria far from Western Sahara. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moroccansahraoui (talk • contribs) 11:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh boy See list of countries. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh dad you have some missing points about Western Sahara issue. I believe it's really hard to know all the aspects of this cold war complex issue at the 20'. So dad, there is so much to know about the reality of the ground and the position of the UN based on the last report of the General Assembly on Western Sahara issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moroccansahraoui (talk • contribs) 11:58, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland?

I don't wanna peeve anybody off, but those aren't independant countries. GoodDay (talk) 18:56, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The terminology of the British government calls them countries but that doesn't make them countries. They are not included in list of countries nor satisfy the criteria mentioned in country. I would recommend their removal.Yman88 (talk) 19:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If it's decided to keep the dependant countries listed in this article? Then the article will have to be divided into 2 sections: Section for independants, section for dependants. GoodDay (talk) 19:07, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

All of the others that are not independent countries are autonomous regions and their inclusion could be debated as warranted. However the constituent parts of the UK are not; they are ruled by a central government from London. Thus just removing them for the moment would suffice. Changing this into only independent flags is a much bigger and more complicated deal.Yman88 (talk) 19:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest waiting, to see what others opinons are. If ya wish to delete them? no prob. GoodDay (talk) 19:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If you believe they should be removed because they are not automonous then I'm afraid wikipedia disagrees with you, as shown in the article List of autonomous areas by country. Titch Tucker (talk) 19:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Is it alright to re-arrange the content? Independant & Dependant. GoodDay (talk) 19:23, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd doubt their inclusion on that list. At the very least England needs to be removed. It appears on no list.Yman88 (talk) 19:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Yman. This article isn't about "List of flags of autonomous areas by country" it's about national flags - the Basque Country and Catalonia have far more autonomy than Northern Ireland but the latter does not meet the definition of country in that particular article. We should remove them all and replace with a single United Kingdom flag. Valenciano (talk) 19:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted 'England, Wales, Northern Ireland & Scotland', to see how everyone views it. Feel free to restore them, if it's premature of me. GoodDay (talk) 19:31, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Wowsers, that was quick. GoodDay (talk) 19:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

(deindent) User:GoodDay, I'd support that. The lead also needs to be more explicit in what constitutes "a country" otherwise this article will become a minefield for every POV pusher that wants their own "nation" included. A separate article on "List of flags of autonomous areas by country" might be a good idea if properly defined. Valenciano (talk) 19:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Once again, if you wish to remove them because this article is about "national flags" let me point out to you the article Bearer of the National Flag of Scotland.Titch Tucker (talk) 19:40, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

A title of an article indicates nothing. I'd suggest their removal from this article.Yman88 (talk) 19:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest otherwise for the reasons already given Titch Tucker (talk) 19:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I've had trouble in the past on the Scotland article (concerning it's map & its status as a nation). It's best I move on, good luck guys/gals. GoodDay (talk) 19:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

TitchTucker, no, I want to redefine the article to specify precisely what constitutes national flags to avoid this article becoming yet another geopolitical minefield. Recognition as an independent country by a multinational organisation would be a good start to avoid Scotland / Catalonia / South Ossetia / Northern Cyprus style disputes. Valenciano (talk) 19:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The first argument to delete them was that they are not automonous, I proved (apart from England) they were. The second argument was because they did not have national flags, I proved they did. The third argument is because they are not independent. If the article was named List of flags by independent country I would agree to delete them, but it's not. Titch Tucker (talk) 19:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If that solves the issue then I've no problem with any renaming of the article. I would suggest splitting into separate articles "List of flags by independent country" (or whatever) and "List of flags by autonomous region." Those would need to be clearly defined to avoid issues. Suitable definitions would need to be devised to deal with places like semi-recognised places like South Ossetia and Northern Cyprus as well as 'substantial autonomy but not technically independent' places like Faroe Islands and Greenland. Valenciano (talk) 20:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I have another suggestion. Why don't we change the article name to List of National flags by country, or just List of National flags. Titch Tucker (talk) 20:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

We have to be careful folks. England, Scotland, Northern Ireland & Wales are not equals of the United Kingdom. Therefore they can't be presented as such. GoodDay (talk) 20:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

They are not equal or unequal. England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales are what they are. Titch Tucker (talk) 20:13, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Not equal to the UK. GoodDay (talk) 20:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

England or Scotland are plainly not the same as the UK. One is an official, legally recognised state, the others are regional sub-units. We need one article for states with a reasonable degree of legal recognition (I'm thinking UN level) and another for officially recognised sub-units. Valenciano (talk) 20:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree.Yman88 (talk) 20:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)I of course am not saying they are the same as the UK. What I do say is that we have to recognise the fact they have national flags, which is why I suggested changing the article name to List of National flags. Titch Tucker (talk) 20:23, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Can I just point out that the sub units of the UK do not appear in either Gallery of sovereign-state flags nor Gallery of dependent territory flags. If they don't appear in a gallery why should they appear in a list?Yman88 (talk) 20:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, the first is because they are not sovereign states, though they are countries. The second is because they are not dependent territories. Does anyone have an opinion of my suggestion on changing the article name? Titch Tucker (talk) 20:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I am against your move. E,S, NI and Wales are the only "countries" in this list to not appear in either gallery. Can you explain why? Perhaps because calling them countries is just a localised terminology not used internationally? That is my belief.There is no other explanation.

Edit: The UK sub part flags appear in this gallery: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_formerly_independent_states . It explains a lot.Yman88 (talk) 20:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

When I go and see the Scotland international football team playing in the FIFA world cup and they play our national anthem and raise our national flag I am watching a country playing football. Titch Tucker (talk) 20:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

FIFA recognizes them as nations not necessarily countries. Sporting bodies do not indicate political situations in a country. Your arguments are sounding more and more like nationalist POV. While there's nothing wrong with that; Wikipedia is required to have a NPOV.Yman88 (talk) 20:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

We were having an interesting conversation till you accused me without any basis of having a nationalist POV. I shall leave you to do with the article as you wish. Titch Tucker (talk) 20:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

FIFA's opinion on this issue is practically worthless. Israel played in the Oceania zone in the 1986 World Cup and in the European zone in recent World Cups yet geographically everyone recognises that it's in the Middle East. Faroe Islands and Palestine are two other examples of why we can't take FIFA as an authority on this matter. Anyway why does the opinion of FIFA count for more than the International Olympic Committee which does not recognise Scotland as an independent competitor? We need neutral, verifiable facts here to avoid bias, POV and the hijacking of this article by POV pushing nationalist editors. Valenciano (talk) 21:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

It's always nice to have a civilised conversation. As for who is hijacking the article, it seems to me it is you and others who have come to this article to change it to your POV. Like I said, I'll leave it to you and take my "nationalist POV" with me. Titch Tucker (talk) 21:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Since I've opened this discussion, I feel it's my place to comment (yet again). Let's stop this Nationlist PoV accusations, folks. Remember concentrate on the content; not the contributor. Keep your cool, folks. GoodDay (talk) 21:15, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I never accused Titch or anyone of nationalist POV so I've no idea why he/she is flying off the handle. What I'm saying is that the only stable basis for articles would be to have those with a fair degree of legal recognition - UN or whatever, that article could have a subsection for partially recognised countries i.e. South Ossetia, TRNC etc - all verifiable and NPOV. See this article for a clear example of what could happen if we accept any other definition. Valenciano (talk) 21:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh heck, may aswell rejoin the discussion. Tich & Yman have chosen to depart the article. Anyways, this article should be re-organized (as I mentioned above). GoodDay (talk) 21:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Northern Ireland

The article name is "List of flags by country". That doesn't specify that each country in the list should be an independent country, or any specific type of country. The flag I replaced is the flag of the United Kingdom. The article specified Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland's specific flag is the flag of Northern Ireland. I have included both flags in the article now as a compromise until the issue is sorted. --Setanta 14:25, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

• See Flag of Northern Ireland. The UB is not currently the official flag of NI. Black Kite 14:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
  • The St George's Cross is not currently the "official" flag of England. Yet it is recognised as identifying England as distinct from the other countries within the UK. Ditto for the flag of Northern Ireland. --Setanta 05:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• The only method of "compromise" that I can see is GoodDay's - to remove Eng/Sco/Wal/NI and replace with UK. Black Kite 14:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If the flags of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are removed from this article then the article name should be changed to List of flags by independent country, or alternatively, changed to List of national flags, which would have to include the aforementioned countries. We have to be careful we don't start a precedent, before we know it they will also be removed from articles such as Flags of Europe and every other flag article, then the reader will hardly know that these national flags even exist. Titch Tucker (talk) 16:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree, actually. The existence of a "compromise" idea doesn't mean that we should throw the baby out with the bathwater, more that we should ensure that existing entries are correct, which is the problem with including the Ulster Banner. Black Kite 16:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Divide the article into 2 sections. Top section for indendpendts & bottom section for dependants. England/Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales must not be in the same section with United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 16:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If dividing the article into two sections solves the problem then I would agree to that. Titch Tucker (talk) 16:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If it doesn't work? The only other option is to delete England/Wales/Northern Ireland/Scotland. GoodDay (talk) 17:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If they are eventually removed then the article name will have to change. Another article named National flags can be created which will include the country flags mentioned, and any others on this list which are not fully independent. Titch Tucker (talk) 17:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

It would be alot easier, just to boot'em out. Another option would be to delete the article. GoodDay (talk) 17:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

⬅ OPPOSE One known contentious editor using this page to pursue yet again a specific POV does not warrant any change. --Snowded TALK 17:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Then we'll adopt the sections proposal. GoodDay (talk) 18:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

No, leave it as it is, its consistent with the definition of countries used elsewhere in Wikipedia. There is no need to make such changes just because one contentious editor is playing games, don;t feed Trolls --Snowded TALK 18:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

[de-indent] Considering the factual error in the article as it currently stands, I have added some tags to it. The accuracy tag I added because the Union Jack is not the flag of Northern Ireland. The POV tag because I have been accused of POV and therefore it's possible to conclude that there may be an opposing POV (ie: the status quo). The fact tag indicates the problematic, or erroneous, entry in the article. I'd appreciate these tags being left until each of the issues are sorted. --Setanta 05:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Divide into sections

Anybody know how to do this? Have an Independant & Dependant sections? That way we won't have to alter the article's name. GoodDay (talk) 17:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose for reasons stated above
• Oppose I have explained my reasons above. Changed my mind over the compromise. A country is a country, full stop. Titch Tucker (talk) 18:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

* Support, as it would make the article less confusing to less familiar readers. GoodDay (talk) 18:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I would support the change but might I suggest something slightly different? Instead of splitting the article do something like they do in other articles. Make the sovereign states bold and dependencies/autonomous regions which are called countries italic or standard in typeface, with an explanation up the top. It would however have to be determined whether the UK sub parts would meet the criteria of dependency etc.Yman88 (talk) 18:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm; I like it. GoodDay (talk) 18:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Look this is a hardy perennial on Wikipedia. The meaning of country is not the same as nation state - this has been established time and time again in many disputes on many pages. Countries which linked on the header makes this very clear. This page is a list of flags by country, the meaning of country being established elsewhere. The word dependency is also highly contentious, and you end up having to deal with countries with or without different degrees of self-government and historical existence. The last thing this page needs is to become yet another battle ground for a series of complex and contentious issues. If people really want to persue this then it will be be necessary to post notices on the various country pages involved as I doubt many editors watch it specifically. Do we really want that? --Snowded TALK 18:44, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I still like Yman88's idea (which is better then mine, darn-it). GoodDay (talk) 18:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry GoodDay I just copied it from the List of countries article. The UK cc's aren't in that list and I'm not understanding why this is such a big issue. I agree that we do not need a battleground. But we certainly don't need a misleading article either.Yman88 (talk) 18:53, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm a little surprised by the opposition, too. However, whatever is decided (status quo or change), we'll all have to abide by it. GoodDay (talk) 18:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I feel a bit reticent to say this GD, because since I joined wiki we have gotten along well, and I'm sure that will continue, but when you made the statement "It would be a lot easier just to bootem out. Another option would be to delete the article" it put me off the compromise. It kind of suggested to me that your final aim was indeed to boot them out Titch Tucker (talk) 19:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I originally thought it would be best to delete Scotland/Northern Ireland/England/Wales. But sections or bolding proposals appeared better. I was considering AfDing the article too - but that's apparently non-optional. My main concern is will it confuse the less familiar readers. I've no personal stake in it. GoodDay (talk) 19:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

⬅ At the moment we have a useful and non-contentious article. It lists the flags of countries. It confirms with the WIkipedia definition of a country (the complications of which are discussed on a linked article. The status of Wales, Scotland etc as countries has been established by multiple citations (as GoodDay knows as well as anyone). Countries are countries, there is no issue of status as no claim is made here to sovereign status. If a different status is introduced here then it will have to be explained, that explanation will not be easy to achieve without considerable contention and debate. I remain astounded that GoodDay with his experience of this issue deleted the four UK countries. An alternative suggestion if people are really concerned then the simplest suggestion is to clearly link each name to its country page. The lede's in each case present their status. --Snowded TALK 19:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll abide by whatever is decided here. PS: FWIW, List of countries seems to disagree with Wiki definition of country. GoodDay (talk) 19:45, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Well go and change it then GoodDay, don't compound the error, but as you well know this one goes the round from time to time. I'd just leave it (and this) alone. --Snowded TALK 20:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I've asked Administrator Black Kite, to check into that article. Feel free to endorse that request. GoodDay (talk) 20:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Move under the UK

Howabout this folks? EXAMPE:

• United Kingdom
  
  • England
    
  • Northern Ireland
    
  • Scotland
    
  • Wales
    

GoodDay (talk) 01:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

That's very similar to Template:Flags of Europe. Seems alright to me. Titch Tucker (talk) 01:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

This way, we get to keep them in the article & show their relationship to the UK. GoodDay (talk) 01:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Its a list of flags by country and arranged alphabetically. As I have said several times lets keep this simple. If you really want this discussion (and I really cannot see any reason for it) then notifications will have to be placed on the country pages concerned. --Snowded TALK 03:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

If England, Wales, Scotland & Northern Ireland were independant; that would be cool & less hectic. However, they're not independant. I can't help that, it's a fact, that's the way it is, folks. At least I've given a proposal to 'keep' them in this article. It wouldn't hurt for flexability from those who oppose my proposal. Changes here won't effect the relating articles. Dare I say it: Where's the NPOV approach, folks? These article are for the readers out there, not just for us. GoodDay (talk) 15:43, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The entry for Northern Ireland doesn't have a flag icon beside it. I would suggest including the flag of Northern Ireland and embolding "United Kingdom", thus:

• United Kingdom
  
  • England
    
  • Northern Ireland
    
  • Scotland
    
  • Wales
    

That keeps the article consistent. --Setanta 05:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately that is the flag of Ulster not Northern Ireland ....--Snowded TALK 05:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually its neither. It's a historical flag which used to be used in Northern Ireland. The empty space is correct as their is no correct flag of Northern Ireland presently. I support GoodDay's proposal.Yman88 (talk) 09:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I fundamentally oppose this suggestion. Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England are all countries. Therefore, they belong in this article, as entities, in their own right. Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 14:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

My proposal is sound. If Northern Ireland does use a flag, it's the Union Jack (certainly not the Ulster). GoodDay (talk) 15:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The flag issue is not the specific proposal to which I'm opposed. I do hope you aren't being deliberately obtuse, as well as being mischievous in bringing this suggestion. I am opposed to delisting Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England from their entry as countries in their own right, and listing them under their state. Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 15:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

England, Wales, Northern Ireland & Scotland staying in the article, is not a problem. Being presented as equals to the United Kingdom is. There's less familiar readers out there who may be confused by what they currently see. We all know, alot a people in the world, think England is the UK, Great Britain etc (and we all know, that's an incorrection). GoodDay (talk) 15:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what an 'incorrection' is, so I can't comment. However, I would like to know if you consider Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England to be countries. If yes, then they belong in this article. Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 15:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes keep them here, but keep them under the United Kingdom (as I've proposed). GoodDay (talk) 16:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

But you have no logical basis for that proposal. This article is 'List of flags by country'. You have agreed that Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England are countries. Therefore they qualify for inclusion in this article by definition. Daicaregos (talk) 16:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's a better proposal: Delete the United Kingdom from this article. Ya'll convinced me- England, Scotland, Northern Ireland & Wales are independant entities. GoodDay (talk) 16:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I've had enough, here. I haven't been able to get my point across to anyone (my fault). GoodDay (talk) 16:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd oppose this - this article should be for independent entities. As I've argued above, there should be a List of flags by independent state - this would include partially recognised places like Kosovo, South Ossetia and TRNC in a subsection. A separate article for List of flags by autonomous area would deal with the rest which would include Scotland etc. That would be a more stable solution. This article as currently stands is poorly titled, it needs to be split into articles which are NPOV and verifiable. Valenciano (talk) 17:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing to stop anyone from creating an article entitled 'List of flags by independent state', although I would expect it to be a candidate for WP:AFD quite soon. This article is 'List of flags by country', which by NPOV definition, includes the flags of Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England. Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 18:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

(deindent)The problem with that is that the countries article states that : "For an entity to be classified as a country, it must fulfill the Constitutive theory of statehood, this internationally recognized convention requires that for an entity to be recognized as a country, it must be recognized by other entities, that are, in turn, recognized themselves." Wales may be termed a country by some but it does not fulfil that criteria. As the article currently stands there are numerous entities missing: Catalonia, The Basque Country and the Valencian Country to name but three. Valenciano (talk) 18:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England are recognised to be countries by the UK government, who is in turn, recognised to be a country, which fulfils the criteria given. I don't know enough about Catalonia, The Basque Country or the Valencian Country to say whether they are countries, or not. I'm sure they will let us know. We could place a WP:RFC on their country articles if you think it might help. Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 20:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Catalonia certainly would qualify [1] and the Basque Country is the title given to it by the Spanish government in official documentation. I really don't see why we can't go with GoodDay's solution below and include the national flags followed by the autonomous area flags. Valenciano (talk) 08:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Though the reference you gave only said that Catalonia is a 'nation'. This article is List of flags by country, rather than by nation. However, if Catalonia qualifies as a country then it should be included. Do you have any references showing Catalonia as a country? And do you have any similar references for other countries not included? Daicaregos (talk) 09:54, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Northern Ireland flag

I opened this NI assembly flag debate in July, without response alas. I'm fine with the Union Jack in the absence of any other flag, as the UK collectively pays for itself, and NI is a British country, despite having such a large minority of Irish citizens - and the British majority within NI are culturally, staunchly and proudly British. But it would be surely be best if it had its own non-controversial flag, like Wales, Scotland and England. All the alternatives I've seen are based on the ulster banner etc. I wonder what would happen if we tried to fly this? --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as Northern Ireland & United Kingdom are both listed in this article. Having the Union Jack twice migth be confusing. I'd opt for having 'no flag' next to Northern Ireland. However, if this flag is used? we'll need a note by it (pointing out it's not NI's official flag). GoodDay (talk) 23:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

As in using;

Northern Ireland (United Kingdom) (non-official)

With the others as;

England (United Kingdom)

Scotland (United Kingdom)

Wales (United Kingdom)

United Kingdom

Do we say the Union Jack is "non official" though? --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:34, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Excuse my ignorance. I don't recognise this flag, what does it represent? Is it an old flag or one that's relatively new. Cheers. Titch Tucker (talk) 23:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It's the Northern Ireland Assembly flag. It's been about power sharing, so it will be a neutral symbol.--Matt Lewis (talk) 23:34, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It will be 6 counties by the way, though I'm sure what the flower is. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It looks good to me. It would certainly be better than having no flag representing N.Ireland. Titch Tucker (talk) 23:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I suppose. Afterall, the article isn't called List of official flags by country. Anyways, whatever ya'll think is best. GoodDay (talk) 23:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It seems it's the flax plant, which incidentaly appeared on the reverse of the one pound coin minted in 1986 and also in the early 1990's to represent N.Ireland. Titch Tucker (talk) 00:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Flax? That's interesting. Someone at some point made a small icon of the flag, maybe it just needs a push to be used. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

You can see the 1986 version in the article One pound (British decimal coin). Titch Tucker (talk) 00:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. It has been used to represent the whole of N.Ireland, so I don't really see any problem using it here and elsewhere. Titch Tucker (talk) 00:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like original research to me. It's not up to us on WP to invent a flag for NI. The NI flag is the Union flag. If another symbol is to be used then it should be the Ulster banner with an explanatory note that it is not official and is an older flag. Valenciano (talk) 08:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The Ultser banner has history! The assembly flag was clearly made to be acceptable to all of Northern Ireland - hence the rationale behind using it. It's just an idea - and it's a bit simplistic to call it OR, in my opinion. There is no official NI flag, and Wikipedia is not entirely inflexible.--Matt Lewis (talk) 14:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think its a case of having no flag for N.Ireland, which seems a bit of an anomaly to me, or using a flag which does represent N.Ireland as a whole. Titch Tucker (talk) 15:51, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The Assembly flag is not used in NI, or to represent NI. The only flag ever used to represent NI specifically is the Northern Ireland Flag ("Ulster Banner"). This should be used. Mooretwin (talk) 16:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The only flag that can be used to represent NI is the Union Jack as it is the only official flag of NI we can't make up flags. BigDunc^Talk 16:38, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The flag of Northern Ireland can be used, and is used, to represent Northern Ireland. The Union Jack is used to represent the United Kingdom - it is not specific to Northern Ireland. The flag of Northern Ireland is not a "made up flag".. at least not any more so than, for example, the flag of the United States of America. We can't make up the idea that a region doesn't have a flag that represents it. --Setanta 11:26, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I thought the Union Jack represented the UK as a whole rather than N.Ireland specifically. I don't think anyone on wiki made up the Assembly flag, it flies in N.Ireland outside that building and was used on the one pound coin to represent N.Ireland. Titch Tucker (talk) 17:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

But it has never been used to represent NI and to portray it as representing it is wrong the same way the Ulster Banner is. BigDunc^Talk 17:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The best solution is to use the union flag which the Northern Ireland government does use. But there should be a note in brackets after explaining theres no offical NI flag, and linking to the Northern Ireland flag page, where its mentioned in more detail. If the union flag cant be agreed to, then it has to stay blank, there is no alternative. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I would agree to that as it is the only correct way of doing it. BigDunc^Talk 18:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

If that is going to be accepted as a solution, then other flags in the article would have to be treated the same way in the interests of consistency - namely the flags of Scotland and of England. The only two flags, as far as I'm aware, which have any kind of "official status" (and I've yet to see a definition of that phrase) with regard to the United Kingdom, are the Union Jack (est. 1801) and the flag of Wales (est. 1959). The fact remains however, that the flags of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland are de facto the flags of the respective countries. I would be happy to accept a footnote in the article to the affect that the flag of Northern Ireland is rejected by those people of Northern Ireland who are Republican, and also rejected by many nationalists. --Setanta 13:17, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Having just spotted this debate regarding which 'official' flag emblem to use for Northern Ireland I though I would draw your attention to this media article from 15 August 2007:- Website sparks online debate. Also this more in depth government report from 2000, which does specify the 'Union flag' and the 'Royal Standard' are the correct ones for use on governmental buildings:- [http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/adhocs/flags/reports/adhoc1-00r.htm NI Assembly flags report. Richard Harvey (talk) 11:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Could you check the url for the "Website sparks online debate" link please Richard. It directs to a dead page. Thanks. Daicaregos (talk) 11:53, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

My apologies I had accidentally included a fullstop to the end of the link. I have now corrected it. Richard Harvey (talk) 19:13, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism accusation by Snowded

Snowded, before I revert your edit to the article, I'd like to give you the chance to explain why you considered my own edit to be "vandalism". A dictionary definition of vandalism explains that it is, "the wilful or malicious destruction or defacement of property". I have not wilfully or maliciously destroyed or defaced this article. On the contrary, I have attempted to highlight, using the mechanisms of the encyclopaedia itself, the issue(s) that are currently under dispute and discussion - here on this talk page.

To elaborate: currently the article shows the Union Jack - that is, the flag of the United Kingdom - next to Northern Ireland. Clearly, this is suggesting that the Union Jack is the flag of Northern Ireland. It isn't. The Union Jack is only the flag of Northern Ireland insofar as it is the flag also of England, Scotland and Wales.

Now, let's examine the entries in this article for those other three countries. Each of them have different flags next to them - none of them being the Union Jack. It would be just as wrong therefore, to exchange the flags of England, Scotland and Wales in this context, with the Union Jack.

As each of those three constituent countries have a different flag beside them in the list - a flag that is not the Union Jack - the context is quite clear. Those are the flags that individually represent those specific countries. Northern Ireland also has a flag which specifically represents it, and is used to specifically represent it. The four flags are:

• England: The "Flag of England" (also known as the "St George Cross")
• Northern Ireland: The "Flag of Northern Ireland" (also known as the "Ulster Banner")
• Scotland: The "Flag of Scotland" (also known as the "St Andrew Cross" or "Saltire")
• Wales: The "Flag of Wales" (also known as "Y Ddraig Goch" or the "Welsh Dragon")

In what way is including the tags, two of which point to this talk page wherein a discussion is actually taking place regarding the problem.. in what way do you consider the addition of those tags to be "vandalism" or in any way different to other articles tagged in a similar manner (eg, John Fogerty, Empire, Frankie Goes to Hollywood, Christopher Hitchens, or Banat (1941–1944))?

As I see it, the tags are meant for two things: 1) To encourage discussion on the issue, and to bring the issue to the attention of editors and 2) to inform the readers that there may be a problem with some or all of the information contained within the article or section. If I were not attempting to assume good faith here, I might suspect that you would rather not have too many people discussing the article's problem.

I have clearly outlined the rationale behind my initial edit, my subsequent attempts at compromise, and my reasons for tagging the article. I have done so again, here. Hopefully you can now point out which part of my rationale you therefore regard as "vandalism". If you cannot, I will go ahead and be bold. --Setanta 17:31, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The dispute tag should be kept, on the basis that there's dispute/discussion over the content of the article. However, you (Sentanta) shouldn't be adding it (as you're under suspicion). GoodDay (talk) 17:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Suspicion? Suspicion of what exactly?

Even if I'm "under suspicion" of something, what difference does it make if I add a dispute tag, or if someone else adds it? The end result is the same! This really is getting ridiculous and childish! --Setanta 17:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

If you re-add the tag & the Ulster Banner? you'll likely be reverted & fairly/unfairly accused of more disruption. All ya gotta do is stick to the talkpage & make your case there. If ya can't get a consensus for Ulster Banner inclusion? Then move on. I don't wanna see ya getting blocked. GoodDay (talk) 18:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Setana747, you know perfectly well that the flag of Ulster is not the flag of Northern Ireland (remember those other three counties). You are under warning and restriction on this type of issue and its vandalism. If you revert then I will change it back and immediate report the change to the enforcement discussion. I have lost patience with your attempts to use peripheral articles to attempt to achieve a POV. --Snowded TALK 06:01, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I am indeed fully aware that the flag of Ulster is not the flag of Northern Ireland. I have no interest in pretending otherwise. However, Northern Ireland's flag icon should be included in the article. Nothing I have done is vandalism. Nor am I merely attempting to "achieve POV" - certainly no more so than yourself.

I am going to be bold and re-insert the accuracy/dispute tag, as agreed by GoodDay. It is not only the flag of Northern Ireland that is disputed by editors, but other flags as well, apparently. --Setanta 13:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

If you dispute the use of the Union Jack then I think I agree with you. If you insert the red hand then its vandalism given your knowledge of the situation. --Snowded TALK 13:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

My knowledge of the situation is that the "red hand flag" or "Ulster banner" or "flag of Northern Ireland" is the flag of Northern Ireland. Given that knowledge, any edit I have made in that regard cannot be considered vandalism. Please assume good faith. --Setanta 11:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The Ulster banner should not be included in this list setanta, it is not the official flag of northern Ireland. Please cease your crusade of having this unofficial flag representing NI Anoderate1 (talk) 05:35, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Once again, please define "official flag". --Setanta 11:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

[2] Is the preceding link good enough? Anoderate1 (talk) 03:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Sentanta, you have been an editor on the the Irish pages for far too long for your claim that the Ulster flag is the flag of Northern Ireland to be credible. Secondly you know that if your edit is reversed on you should find a citation to support your "opinion" --Snowded TALK 07:58, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

END THIS, FOLKS

As I'm the editor who started this discussion on ENG/WAL/SCOT/NI's status in this article? I now call for closure. GoodDay (talk) 00:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The arguments that are taking place here is exactly why we hit the lists List of sovereign state flags and List of national flags on the head in 2005 and 2006 and merged the contents (flags) into List of sovereign states. It would be much better if this list redirected to that one. --PBS (talk) 20:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

PBS, I couldn't agree more. I'd definitely support that. It's farcical that this list includes places like Channel Islands, Isle of Man and Transdinistr as "countries." Valenciano (talk) 20:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I also agree. That would be a good move it would certainly reduce confusion and arguments.Yman88 (talk) 22:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, while all sovereign states are countries, not all countries are sovereign. Check out the OED and elsewhere in Wikipedia. --Snowded TALK 22:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the suggestion made by PBS to redirect this page to the List of sovereign states. Whilst it is true what Snowded said about not all countries being sovereign states, they do all atleast appear on the list with flags. Please could you make a proposal so we can vote on this, which appears to have support. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

It would mean redirecting List of national flags to List of sovereign states - hardly ideal. --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I do agree this list seems pretty pointless when you consider that all the other country lists use flags anyway. The main country list articles are in flux at the moment. Perhaps when they are sorted out, we could vote to simply redirect this one to the forthcoming 'List of countries' disambiguation page, with a note on the disam page that each list includes the flags. There are far too many forking 'country' articles around, and we currently discussing sorting them out at List of countries. Redirecting this would keep the word 'country' as a disambiguator leading to a choice of articles/lists, with saves a lot of trouble. --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, thats the best way forward to avoid more disputes. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

If this article is changed to a redirect page to List of countries would that mean that the countries of the UK would not have their flags listed? Daicaregos (talk) 10:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

No, they'll be in two lists. List of countries is in the process of becoming a disam page called Lists of countries (note plural - it is going through a de-FL phase at the moment). There was never a consensus on what to do with it, other than a consensus to point it to a disam page (and it did not have the UK countries, at is happens) - which I personally think was sensible. If/when this list redirects to Lists of countries, LOC will say that country flags are available at List of sovereign states and List of nations (which is being developed). This article would simply be a duplication. The UK countries are at both, though at List of sovereign states they are beside the UK, at List of nations they are alphabetical. All lists will be clear that they come under 'Lists of countries'. --Matt Lewis (talk) 11:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

They will most certainly not be appearing anywhere near the List of sovereign states page might I add.Yman88 (talk) 11:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

As I said, they already are - next to the UK. --Matt Lewis (talk) 11:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The consensus seems to be to redirect. So I intend to do it now. --PBS (talk) 12:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes redirect, all the flags are can be found on those links including, E/W/NI/S. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Woah - PBS - that was a crazy redirect!!!! rnuts! Any consensus (and is there one at all?? Hardly!! People are ignoring this and talking further up the page!!!) was to go to Lists of countries, not List of sovereign states!!! You haven't followed the debate at all, not least comments directly above you action!!!! You are just removing every link between the UK's constituent countries and the word "country"!!! As for you, Britishwatcher (our new SSP) - I've got my beady eye on you - that was very sly. And PBS, I'm worried about you too now, especially with what you did at List of nations. You wouldn't have a wee bias on this matter, would you?--Matt Lewis (talk) 13:15, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

There seemed to be consensus that this page was no longer needed as other lists include the flags anyway. To avoid disagreement the best bet is to redirect to the listS of countries page whe people can choose if they want LOSS or other things. Just including a little note above the list saying countries and their flags can be located on the below links. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Rubbish. Only I said that, and I've fully explained why it must go to the Lists of countries disam page, if it goes anywhere - and non-fantasy consensus won't be that easy to get in here, as you well know.--Matt Lewis (talk) 13:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes you said that and i agreed with you, thats where i thought the redirect was going to be to. Nobody else raised objections except for the question of what would happen to the UK countries, but you replied they appear on the List of Sovereign states anyway. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Sandbox to illustrate possible solutions or compromises

Please feel free to edit List of flags by country/sandbox to illustrate a version that you might prefer. Perhaps it would be a good idea to include your user name and a label for your version, as I have done. --Setanta 13:42, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Could this be moved out of the article space please? Per WP:SP, disallowed uses, number 2: Writing drafts of major article revisions should not be done in article space subpages (since these are treated as regular articles with slashes in their names). Thanks, Pfainuk talk 18:27, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I have moved the sandbox to Talk:List of flags by country/Sandbox and its talk page to Talk:List of flags by country/Sandbox/Discussion per the above note. Pfainuk talk 10:31, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Setanta; looks good to me (especially inpressed that you included Kosova and S Ossetia as well as Israel and Palestine (which both mey refer to the same area in some cases); but just one question - are you saying the UB would replace the flags of all the constituent countries of the UK and how would that impact on the NI flag debate (if at all)? Sarah777 (talk) 05:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Redirecting the list of flags page

Can we decide on whats happening with this list please? I would either like to see it redirected to the Sovereign States page where all countries including unrecognised ones do get a mention with their flag or directed to the "Lists of countries" page. There really is no point in having a separate flags page when all the country lists show flags as well. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:33, 27 November 2008 (UTC)