Talk:List of fastest production cars by acceleration/Archive 4

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Bugatti Chiron Super Sport

Auto Bild wrote that about 70-80 of the 500 Chirons are Super Sports. https://www.autobild.de/artikel/bugatti-chiron-super-sport-2022-preis-ps-kaufen-topspeed-technische-daten-test-21338197.html

Some websites wrote that the Super Sport would be limited to 9 cars but none of them is similarly qualified. Reputable car magazine sites do not mention the alleged 9 cars limit, several even contadict it. For example Car and Driver wrote numbers are limited only by the fact that fewer than 50 of the 500 total Chiron build slots remain: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a37793066/2021-bugatti-chiron-super-sport-drive/

AutoBild exists as print magazine about cars since decades, they most recently had close contact to Bugatti and were allowed to drive the car so their 70-80 number is far more credible than the old 9 cars limit rumor which contradicts several reputable car magazines so the Chiron SS does qualify for the table. Drachentötbär (talk) 20:21, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Is the Robb Report considered a reputable car magazine? Bugatti seems to think so. https://twitter.com/Bugatti/status/1407340409987215365 According to the Robb Report, "If you’re hoping to snag a Chiron Super Sport of your own, you’re out of luck. The model’s nine build slots are all filled up, with an “extensive” waiting list should one become available, according to the brand". https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/bugatti-chiron-super-sport-customer-deliveries-1234672580/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.221.71.166 (talk) 02:55, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

I expect more expertise and fact-checking from a car magazine than from a lifestyle magazine. But reading the whole Robb Report article I don't see contradiction, just a misunderstanding about the meaning of "build slot". They don't write that there's a nine car total limit, just that there are nine build slots at that time. Cars which are already delivered don't occupy build slots and deliveries have begun. Drachentötbär (talk) 16:53, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

A lifestyle magazine doesn't necessarily have less expertise and conduct less fact-checking than a car magazine. The Robb Report reports on the luxury market and production limited supercars are luxury products so it's right in their wheelhouse. The fact that Bugatti themselves value their endorsement implies that Bugatti trusts their articles to be accurate. If "build slot" refers to the number of remaining cars not yet delivered, it stands to reason that they would have mentioned a date or at least a year that those build slots pertain to. The fact that no time period is mentioned strongly implies that is the total number produced. Also, by claiming they mean "there are nine build slots at that time" after "deliveries have begun", you contradict yourself referring to "the old 9 cars limit rumor" based on other publications mentioning it back in June 2021 before any deliveries. You can't have it both ways. Additionally, Car and Driver's implicit claim that there is no explicit production limit for this specific model doesn't match Auto Bild's claim of 70-80 as the limit. At least one of these is wrong and must be removed. 216.221.71.166 (talk) 21:41, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Auto Bild doesn't contradict Car & Driver, the total Chiron limit is 500, customers were free to order the Super Sport instead of the standard Chiron and about 70-80 did so.

I've given two possible explanations why a wrong 9 car limit assumptions could exist, if you still think it's right then explain why Car & Driver, Auto Bild and others contradict it instead of falsely claimimg that I contradict myself.

It's pure speculation how the Robb Report source uses "build slots" so it's useless as reference for the numbers built. Drachentötbär (talk) 00:51, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

If you are arguing that Auto Bild reported orders and not units produced then, by your logic, their claim is useless as a reference for the numbers built. In fact, it makes sense that that is the correct interpretation since Bugatti has an extensive waiting list. The Car & Driver claim is also irrelevant because it only mentions the total Chiron limit and not the number of Super Sports. Only the latter is relevant since not all Chirons can claim its listed data (unlike the 0-60 time for the Veyron). Even if Car & Driver is right and Bugatti didn't have a set number planned for the Super Sport, evidence that the actual number built is 25 or more is still necessary given that the model itself is limited in production and has numerous other variants. Even if the Robb Report reference is deemed insufficient due to lack of consensus on what "build slots" means, it can be backed up by other sources which mention the number in other terms. Motor1 uses "examples" and TopSpeed uses "units". If those sources are not qualified enough then arguably neither are the entries on the page that use those sources as their only reference. 216.221.71.166 (talk) 02:48, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Your examples are just websites which never drove the car, they don't have the quality of classic print magazines, Motor1 even posted "Bugatti Will Build Only 40 More Chiron Hypercars" last year. The 30 Super Sport 300+ are also Super Sports. Drachentötbär (talk) 17:48, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Websites established as reliable sources are just as valid as print magazines. There is no requirement to have driven the car in question in order to be considered a reliable source on its production numbers. Besides, the Robb Report is arguably a classic print magazine; it was founded in 1976 (older than Auto Bild first published in 1986). The Motor1 article you mention does not contradict the claim that there will only be 9 standard Super Sports ever made since it included the remaining Pur Sport as well. The claim that the Super Sport 300+ counts as the same variant as the standard version is unsubstantiated. Evidence must be provided that the 300+ is considered the same variant from a performance standpoint to share the standard version's entry like the McLaren 675LT's Coupé and Spider variants. 216.221.71.166 (talk) 23:44, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

The Super Sport and Super Sport 300+ have the same form and engine so they are essentially the same.

Time-critical (so the visitors don't read it elsewhere first) reposts of Bugatti press releases with minor changes so they don't look exactly the same as done by motor1 are not as fact-checked as in-depth articles. Errors happen more often, maybe they read the sentence starting with "The nine ... " in the original June 2021 press release too quickly.

Bugatti had emphasized when there were limited numbers in the past (exclusivity !), but there is no trace of a nine car limit in their press releases.

Car & Driver had time for fact checking and close contact to Bugatti, their article from September explicitly denies such a limit.

Auto Bild who had time for fact-checking and close contact to Bugatti during the test posted the 70-80 in the print magazine, in a video and on their website. Drachentötbär (talk) 19:52, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

If the standard version and the 300+ are performatively essentially the same there should be sources that acknowledge that. Like, for example, how the source for the McLaren 675LT acknowledges the Coupé and Spider variants in the same sentence as being of "the 675LT". The claim that Motor1 made a error in reading this press release (assuming that is the one you mean) is possible but unlikely and irrelevant given multiple other reliable sources reported 9 units independently. You may be right that Bugatti may not have planned to produce less than 25 standard Super Sports. Evidence is still needed that they did or will make at least 25. I will concede that Auto Bild's video uses "gebaut" (built) to refer to their claim but it is still a range and therefore an estimate even if it is Bugatti's own estimate. There is reasonable doubt that Bugatti will end up anywhere close to that estimate given their other commitments (e.g. limit on total Chirons, numerous other variants with fixed unit numbers that contribute to the limit). 216.221.71.166 (talk) 22:42, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/sports-day-bugatti-chiron-super-sport says that the Chiron Super Sport is "mechanically identical" to the 30 300+ special editions.

The article also suggests that the buyers had free choice between Pur Sport and Super Sport which contradicts the supposed 9 car limit which looks to me like a case of circular reporting by low quality sources. Drachentötbär (talk) 23:03, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I'm now convinced the 300+ is the same as the standard version performatively. I believe the quibble about the exact number of standard versions that end up being built is irrelevant to the validity of the entry now and I'll accept Auto Bild's range as reality unless a better source can be found. However, the entry should now mention both variants. Their unit numbers should be combined as well unless you believe Auto Bild was already referring to both variants collectively. I still think listing the total number of Chirons is irrelevant and that part should be removed. 216.221.71.166 (talk) 05:30, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

The 0-60 mph section contradicts itself

There's a section for "0-60 mph acceleration times", but the footnote for the 1.98s Tesla Model S Plaid time states "on VHT-prepped surface, timer started after 1 foot at a speed of 5.9 mph". This makes it a 5.9-60 mph acceleration time. Either the time or the section title/text is inaccurate, because 5.9 is not 0.

Also, it makes the comparison table moot if some times are legitimately recorded started at 0 mph, and others aren't. 2600:1700:31A0:25B0:94B8:9EA5:BD85:1370 (talk) 00:12, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes and no. Some (many? most? all?) organisations start the timer only after the car has moved 1-foot. Depending on the car, it may be moving at 1.0 mph, 5.9 mph or other velocities at that point - it is dependant on distance, not speed. So saying 5.9-60 mph is definitely out. Since they are always from a standing start, 0-60 mph is a reasonable title. However, I still think that each entry should have a column saying whether the time was measured from true 0 distance or after a 1-foot start or if the method is unknown. Otherwise we are comparing apples with cucumbers.  Stepho  talk  23:03, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I've noticed that Car & Driver, which uses the one-foot rollout, has abandoned the use of the term "0-60", and calls it "acceleration to 60 mph" instead. We may want to rename the section to something similar. If so, we'll definitely want an indicator of whether or not rollout was used for each entry, and I'm okay with a column being added. --Vossanova ^o< 15:23, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

The section originally was like that but I changed it in April. Otherwise it could mean 30-60, 40-60, 59-60 mph. Car & Driver are hoping that their readers (US based, fluent in US English, knowledgeable about US customs and US car culture) will assume that it starts from (near) 0 mph. I prefer to make it clearer.  Stepho  talk  22:05, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Better vague than incorrect. It's not clear at all now, it's incorrect and misleading. The heading is 0-60 mph without any mentioning of modification so most readers will assume that those are real 0-60 mph standing start times.Drachentötbär (talk) 22:52, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Fast vs. Quick

Hello,

In the automotive world, there's a definite distinction between what a quick and a fast car is. A car's quickness refers to its performance at acceleration, e.g. 0-60 mph/0-100 kph. How fast a car can travel relates to it's maximum speed. For instance, a fast car may not necessarily be quick at reaching its maximum speed. Conversely, a quick car may not be the fastest.

So what I'm saying is that this well researched/presented list here should be reassigned with a new and correct title that should read "List of quickest production cars"

13lorem (talk) 13:55, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

The article name already has "by acceleration" and does not have anything like "top speed", so it is already correct. if you like, you can always make a redirect for the name "List of quickest production cars" that just redirects to here.  Stepho  talk  18:39, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Dubious Nissan GT-R auto.it entries

The magazine auto.it generally tests with two decimal places but incredible Nissan GT-R times with only one decimal place supposedly gotten from this magazine have been added to the tables. Drachentötbär (talk) 19:12, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't have an issue with it, missing a one decimal number doesn't make such changes in here and I don't see anything dubious in these entries. Because given sources are reliable enough. In my opinion, this is an irrelevant discussion. By the way, can you prove, Auto.it measuring by two decimals? and what was your suggestion for missing a decimal? XT RedZone (talk) 01:33, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Auto.it uses two decimals as shown here [[1]] [[2]]. The dubious entries were made by you and an IP-adress. So why did you omit a decimal number ? Did you read the magazine you gave as source ? Can you back up your claims ? Or did you just invent things again supposed to be in a vague, hard to access alleged source ? Drachentötbär (talk) 19:51, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

"The dubious entries were made by you and an IP-adress", well I didn't add them. It was an anonymous user. What did you meant by "an IP-address", that anonymous user? You better show us something similar to a copy of the magazine, because the first source you provided is a forum, which is completely unreliable, couldn't see anything and the second one is the website, which contains two decimal numbers, but there are chances that the magazine will contain the performance figures in a different way. what was your suggestions for these entries for not containing two dicimals? XT RedZone (talk) 06:13, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought you were involved. [[3]] and [[4]] also show that two decimals are used in tests by the magazine.

WP:BURDEN to prove lies with the editor who adds material, if just naming an inaccessible magazine issue would be enough to add times and requiring proof for removing (after that just invent another source and re-add) the tables would be full of fake times by fanboys.

For the two entries we have even more reasons to be suspicious. The times are WP:Exceptional and the magazine uses two decimals for testing. Drachentötbär (talk) 19:32, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Incredible times (like a 400 m time which is more than 0.5 seconds quicker than all the other standing start times for an often tested car) were added anonymously, the measuring method of the (not properly addressed) supposed sources doesn't match the entries, there's no trace of those tests on the auto.it website or on test databases in the web. There was an attempt to get the dubious times added to fastestlaps, arguing "Wikipedia already accepted all 0-60, 1/4 mile and 0-100 km/h times." after the times were inserted here, but they weren't believed there. Drachentötbär (talk) 15:20, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Roll out 0-60

The section is clearly misleading The Tesla doesn't do 0-60 in 1.99 seconds, it does 5/6-60 in 1,99 seconds and 0-60 in around 2,28 seconds

Either a column indicating which type of measurement was used (roll out or not) should be added, or everything should follow the same rules.. Esteban Outeiral Dias (talk) 11:11, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Elon himself said no production car ever did 0-60 in less than 2s and that the PLAID doesn't count as a sub 2s 0-60... Esteban Outeiral Dias (talk) 11:13, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

The column I'm talking about is the same used for "By 1/4 mile or 400 meter times (11.0 seconds or less)", one column for the roll out numbers, one for the real 0-60 with no substraction to it Esteban Outeiral Dias (talk) 11:15, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

None of the times in the 60 mph table is a standing start time. We should clarify this in the headline somehow.Drachentötbär (talk) 23:15, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Replace the Noted Specifications with Test Notes in the first table

Test conditions are more relevant than engine details or location which is often not clearly defined. We already have the "Propulsion" column where we could add notes if desired. Details about the car are on the linked Wikipedia sites, details about the testing conditions (like prepped surface or at which speed the timer started) aren't. Drachentötbär (talk) 23:38, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Aspark Owl

What is the problem with Apsark Owl?

It's like Rimac Nevera, all sold out:

https://www.electrifying.com/blog/article/owl-d-they-do-that-aspark-sell-out-of-japan-s-first-fully-electric-hypercar

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/aspark-owl-profile

Latest independent measurements on Misano World Circuit, it clocked a 0-60mph sprint time of 1.72sec with Michelin road legal tyres.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/aspark-owl-electric-hypercar-makes-european-debut

https://manifatturaautomobilitorino.com/aspark-owl.php

https://asparkcompany.com/the-owl-confirmed-as-the-fastest-accelerating-car-in-the-world/SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 03:34, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Sold out doesn't mean produced and delivered. You can take people's money, that's easy. The hard part is producing and delivering the cars to the customer.

For the Autocar reference of 1.72 seconds, who conducted that test? The USNews reference suggests Aspark did themselves. That's not independent.

The point is, new startup companies love to make wild claims. That's how they get interest and new business. That's also why we need a well-established tester with a standard way of testing cars to verify their claims on a production car. --Vossanova ^o< 12:53, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Sold out doesn't mean produced and delivered? I agree. Lets see example from Rimac:

29.3.2018. Concept Two (later renamed to Nevera sold out, you can google it yourselve):

C_Two rasprodan, Rimac u samo tri tjedna prodao 150 primjeraka novog bolida

https://www.index.hr/vijesti/clanak/ctwo-rasprodan-rimac-u-samo-tri-tjedna-prodao-150-primjeraka-novog-bolida/1035378.aspx

16.4.2022. Not sould out, it was misunderstanding.

Rimac automobili za Index: Nevera nije rasprodana, to je bio nesporazum

https://www.index.hr/vijesti/clanak/rimac-automobili-za-index-nevera-nije-rasprodana-to-je-bio-nesporazum/2353495.aspx

Independent testing? Define that in Rimac case. They have done the same testing as Aspark Owl, in their promotional videos, with VBOX. So either we should remove both Nevera and Owl or we should add Owl.SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 01:38, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

The Nevera was tested by carwow and dragtimes which were also accepted for other cars, for the Aspark Owl you only delivered promotional videos or websites by the manufacturer and sites reporting the claims. Drachentötbär (talk) 23:53, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Like I said, Carwow and drag times, marketing PR stunt by Rimac, eligible as Aspark Owl.

Article scope

I apologize for the improper title that had been edited a while ago, it was not encyclopedic enough. Ping me if there is any help needed in the future; I would be glad to advise ideas about similar expansion under a better title/concept. Altanner1991 (talk) 00:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I would suggest renaming this article to List of fastest cars and including top speeds (not just record-breakers). So far, no other article fulfills this need and yet it is quite a significant topic in the world of fast cars, perhaps even more than acceleration. No reason why rocket cars couldn't be included too, for reference. Altanner1991 (talk) 21:42, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

List of fastest cars is currently a redirect to Production car speed record, which is a list of top speed record breakers. List of fastest production cars by acceleration is quite different, listing things like time to do 0-100 km/h rather than top speed.  Stepho  talk  01:22, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes I was aware. Thank you. Altanner1991 (talk) 09:59, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Rimac Nevera

Why it is not on the list? 2A05:4F46:F0E:4E00:81C1:3FF3:F975:4AB2 (talk) 03:26, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Because it is not yet a production car. They have been promising that it will be for sale "real soon now" for a few years but so far this has not happened. Fingers crossed.  Stepho  talk  03:57, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

The first car is produced, and it is bought by Nico Rosberg. So how many of them needs to be produced and what the sources should be used for verification so Nevera could enter the list? Opatijac97 (talk) 23:46, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Good news that it is final being sold. Can you point us to where you found that out?

From near the top of the article, "Having had 25 or more articles made by the original vehicle manufacturer and offered for commercial sale to the public in new condition (pre-production prototypes, and cars modified by either professional tuners or individuals, are not eligible)". I don't know what sources we would use to verify that.  Stepho  talk  00:44, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah of course, this article on English as mostly are on Croatian this is the one that can easily be read. This article also include link to Nico Rosberg Youtube video of him confirming buying and driving his customized Nevera with CEO of Rimac. Link: https://www.total-croatia-news.com/lifestyle/64917-nico-rosberg

60 mph: 1.90 s

1/4 mile: 8.58 at 167.51 mph

100 km/h: 2.00 s

Link to results: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUB1z5wr5p8 Opatijac97 (talk) 13:27, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Excellent. Hope the next 24 sell quickly so that we can put it in the list officially.  Stepho  talk  16:32, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

The first 50 cars were sold long ago, the deliveries have started so it's time to accept it as production car now. We didn't demand more for other cars to enter the list.Drachentötbär (talk) 00:47, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Now I am confused. The Croatia News link given above is dated 12 Aug 2022 and says that last week Nico Rosberg became the first buyer of the Nevera. Either another 50 were delivered during that week (unlikely) or there are 49 more orders that have been (partially?) paid for but not completed yet. We didn't demand more of other cars in the list because most of the other cars didn't consistently fail to deliver their projected targets on time. But too be fair, I guess it's possible to add it to the list. We can always remove it again if the company doesn't produce the remaining 24 required cars (eg, if it goes bankrupt or changes to a different model). But we should add a remark that "as of August 2022 the required 25 have not been delivered yet".  Stepho  talk  01:20, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

The meaning of "first 50 cars is sold" is that buyers paid in advance and by that the cars are reserved for them even if they are not assembled yet.

Ok, so I will put Nevera on the list with a note that one is sold and at least 49 is ordered. In case they get cancelled or something other goes wrong, I will remove it. Opatijac97 (talk) 19:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

No problem.  Stepho  talk  00:16, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I still feel that the Nevera has not met the requirements as defined. They have failed "Having had 25 or more articles made...". Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Paid for doesn't equate to made. TonyBerry (talk) 20:37, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I understand your point - I'm also 50/50 on that. Until recently, Rimac had made many promises about releasing it "real soon now" that simply didn't come true - so we kept them off the list due to no production vehicles. But now that they have at last delivered 1 fully road legal production vehicle it seems reasonable that the others will come soon. So we keep them on a tentative status with a matching note and they may be removed if this reasonable promise doesn't come true in the next couple of years.  Stepho  talk  01:04, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your timely response. Couple of years? I would think a couple of months. They are going to occupy the top spot for the next couple of years and not even meet the basic, well stated, provisions for being on the list? I would like to see a vote of interested parties. Yea or nay on keeping a vehicle that doesn't meet the criteria. We either change the criteria or abide by it. Thanks for your consideration. TonyBerry (talk) 14:29, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Rimac is a known liar in Croatia. Croatians even made Facebook page called Factory of lies by Mate Rimac with almost 20.000 members https://web.facebook.com/groups/4106791099397334 While media is saying - We are aware that his business model is based on false promises - https://slobodnadalmacija.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/mati-rimcu-zapeo-je-projekt-za-koji-je-dobio-52-milijuna-kuna-drzavnih-potpora-rok-mu-je-istekao-a-o-tome-se-suti-svjesni-smo-da-mu-se-poslovni-model-temelji-na-laznim-obecanjima-ocekujemo-odgovornost-aktera-1135805 While Croatian parliament parties are also saying - Mate Rimac is lying! - https://www.radnickafronta.hr/1651-mate-rimac-la%C5%BEe Have they delivered at least one car? Nico Rosberg is influencer, he is promoting Rimac, and in the latest video, he left the car in Croatia. For example, video Teaser of My New Yacht in Monaco | Nico Rosberg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRTPXCV-ksA but later was found out Rosberg was unveiled as the builder’s eco brand ambassador earlier this year after the shipyard launched a full range of eco catamarans packed with green technologies. https://www.boatinternational.com/yachts/news/nico-rosberg-sunreef-yachts Sustainability entrepreneur and Formula 1® World Champion Nico Rosberg becomes a Sunreef Yachts Eco Brand Ambassador on World Oceans Day June 8th 2020. https://www.sunreef-yachts.com/en/news/world-oceans-day-2020-nico-rosberg-becomes-sunreef-yachts-eco-brand-ambassador Next year he was on the same yacht, but this time yacht was from Rafael Nadal - Inside Rafael Nadal's Yacht! I Got an Exclusive Tour in Monaco | Nico Rosberg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsurbNcFjuc Back to Rimac. In interview after Richard Hammond's crash, Rimac is claiming that the car which Hammond crashed was a private car from a buyer which decided to borrow the car to The Grand Tour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18oAkxwYQh0 But you can find the truth if you read financial records, where you can see that thecar was not private from the owner but from Rimac, and that the insurance will pay the damage to Rimac. https://i.ibb.co/3MkTd1Q/rimac-hammond.jpg All financial records are available here https://rgfi.fina.hr/JavnaObjava-web/jsp/prijavaKorisnika.jsp To conclude, such approach would be contrary to WP policies.SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 03:34, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Nevera removed, it does not meet the conditions defined as eligible cars and approach of adding it on the list until is meets given criteria is contrary to WP policies.SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 01:38, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

For other entries in the past we didn't demand a proof that already 25 cars were produced before adding, when deliveries had started and it was clear that 25 would be produced it was sufficient, it would be fair to treat the Nevera the same way. It's not considered newsworthy when the 25th car is built, so we usually can't know how many cars were finished at the moment. I like the compromise suggested by Opatijac97 and accepted by Stepho-wrs, some editors even wanted to add the Rimac Nevera much earlier. Two freshly created accounts oppose it, I don't see any relevance in SoldierBoy12345's misleading attacks on Mate Rimac (which violate WP:BLP) and Rosberg, if you want to say that the car is not in production add something substantial.Drachentötbär (talk) 00:15, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

See rules of the article - Eligible cars. I have proved that Rimac is constantly lying, I have proved that one car that is supposedly sold to Rosberg could be just marketing from Rimac. But if I add Aspark Owl, that car is a problem. Solution, either add Owl, or remove Nevera (or prove that 25 cars are delivered to the customers). Otherwise solutions are clear violation pf article rules and WP policies.SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 22:23, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

No, you didn't prove anything, you've mainly spammed irrelevant stuff, described in a misleading way. Your "Croatian parliament parties are also saying" leads to attacks by a left-wing populist party, you sell a website quoting them as "While media is saying", the existence of a hate page (to be expected for targets for extremist parties) is irrelevant, as is what you claim happened in 2017 and the confusing yacht stories. While we have tests of the Nevera by carwow and dragtimes you just spammed worthless weblinks when adding the Aspark Owl, like the manufacturer home page or promotional videos or sites reporting the claims, no test by someone independent. Drachentötbär (talk) 01:10, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Although SoldierBoy is coming off as "spammy" and "brash", I think his information is correct despite lack of independent verifiable evidence. I've been watching the Nevera since its earliest inceptions. The only "production" sample is in the hands of a non-car guy. Total marketing scheme. Jay Leno drove one with the chief Rimac engineer. If anyone wants one, and could likely get one, it's Jay Leno. The fit and finish of the car Leno drove was far from production. Several times in the video the Rimac guy stated it was not a production model. I do believe the car being driven by Nico Rosberg is a one-off model. If I had access to DMV records, I'd be willing to bet the car is marked as "proto" and is probably a lease. What proof would suffice the mods related to this entry in order to have the Nevera removed until it is a production vehicle? Thanks. TonyBerry (talk) 17:05, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

@Drachentötbär:Yes, I have proven that Rimac is a known liar for those who know him and his lies. That political party is not in any way extremist left party, but they are the only one willing to talk in public about the various affairs happening in the Croatia. For example, they were the only one talking about Todoric and Agrokor, while the others were praising him and his company as some of the best and biggest in the Europe, and even the world, including big auditory companies:

https://www2.deloitte.com/hr/hr/pages/press/articles/ce-top-500-2015.html

https://www2.deloitte.com/hr/hr/pages/press/articles/global-power-of-retailing-2017.html

To get back to Rimac, that parliament party asked for the documents of homologation, you can find official documents in these texts:

https://www.radnickafronta.hr/1651-mate-rimac-la%C5%BEe

https://www.radnickafronta.hr/1677-mate-%E2%80%9Ckasnimo-jeb-a%E2%80%9D-rimac

Direct link to the documents:

https://www.radnickafronta.hr/attachments/article/1677/Odgovor%20-%20Rimac%20(1).pdf

https://www.radnickafronta.hr/attachments/article/1677/Odgovor%20PT1%20(1).pdf

https://www.radnickafronta.hr/attachments/article/1677/Zahtjev%20za%20izmjenom%20-%20Rimac.pdf

So yes, among other things, it is proven that Rimac was lying about homologation. Other confusing stories are apparently only confusing to you, including the story in which Nico Rosberg apparently bought the yacht, but later was found out that he was involved with the company (just like any other influencer like Nico Rosberg is today) and that the yacht was in fact not his property and including story where Rimac was saying the Concept One in which Hammond crfashed was private, customer car, but the truth was found out later when financial records showed that the owner of the car was Rimac.

Carwow and drag times, marketing PR stunt by Rimac, eligible as Aspark Owl.

Beside that, article rules are saying that eligible cars are Being constructed principally for retail sale to consumers for their personal use, and to transport people on public roads (no commercial or industrial vehicles are eligible); Fitted with the original manufacturer-supplied road tires; Having had 25 or more articles made by the original vehicle manufacturer and offered for commercial sale to the public in new condition (pre-production prototypes, and cars modified by either professional tuners or individuals, are not eligible); Being street-legal in their intended markets and capable of passing any official tests or inspections required to be granted this status.

So, unless you can provide proof, for example that at least 25 cars were made and offered for commercial sale, Nevera is in breach of article rules, eligible cars and WP rules.SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 02:55, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Notes and AWD

I see that many entries in the list have a footnote (efn) now, which specifying if the car uses AWD (all-wheel drive). This seems like a way to sneak in a specification without adding a new column. The question is, is it a noted specification, that could be placed in the last column? If the car is available in both RWD and AWD, then yes, we should note which drive type was used in setting the time. Otherwise, this is just another specification of the car like number of doors or cylinders that can be found by going to the car's link. So, I suggest removing the all-wheel-drive footnotes and mentioning it in the Noted Specifications column if the car was also available in RWD. --Vossanova ^o< 13:50, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

If the vehicle is available in multiple final drive types, then I would agree with making a note of which drive the performance numbers are a result of. TonyBerry (talk) 14:32, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, along the same line of thinking, the Noted Spec column could be cleaned. The Nevera only has a 4 motor option, the Plaid only has a 3 motor option, the Porsche 911 is only available rear engine, etc. If there is only one engine/motor available, there's no point listing it. TonyBerry (talk) 14:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree. I think 15yrs ago AWD was possibly a novelty among this list, but it is no longer. Brief look at the "noted specifications", and the only one of those that is notable for any of the vehicles is the Challenger Demon's single seat. IPBilly (talk) 14:59, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

This is another interesting point I've watched over the years on this list. "Not modified [...] by individuals". Removing all of the interior offers a significant performance advantage. Should this be allowed? Tires have been a discussion point in the past and now there is a stipulation that factory tires be used. Typically, the rule (in informal circles) was if you need to lift the hood to modify, then it is excluded. Seats and tires don't require going under the hood. No real suggestion here. Just observations. TonyBerry (talk) 16:57, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

The idea behind listing "production cars" here is that the runs are done in a configuration you can buy from the dealer, register, and drive on public roads. Removing equipment in a way such that the configuration is not available from the factory should disqualify it from the list. That said, there are factory options out there to delete items, such as the seats in the Dodge Challenger/Charger, and packages like the "Weissach" package from Porsche which delete some items. Those would be okay and should be mentioned in Noted Specifications.

I'm glad the other noted specifications were brought up a couple times, and I agree. I would suggest changing the footnote for Noted specifications to note that the column is for non-standard configurations for that particular model, versus being something other than what is assumed to be "default" specs (gasoline engine, RWD, rear-mid engine). --Vossanova ^o< 17:34, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I've updated the noted specification columns on the page with a new footnote - see revision history for other changes. I also removed "sedan", "coupe" and "SUV" from the model footnotes - body style can be found on the model pages, and doesn't need to be given special attention in these lists. As for AWD vs. RWD - I realize that AWD can have an advantage over RWD acceleration times, especially with launch control systems. But should we call the AWD models out in the list? And if so, is there a better way than footnotes - like model names in italics, or a shaded/colored row background? --Vossanova ^o< 19:59, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Only if the model is available in both configurations. No point in listing Plaid as AWD as they all are. No RWD option. TonyBerry (talk) 17:06, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Prepped drag racing surface vs normal asphalt

There should be added description for each car which was measured on prepped drag racing surface.

For example, times from Rimac Nevera and Tesla Model Plaid S were measured at sticky, prepped drag racing surface, but on normal asphalt their times are slower. SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 03:49, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

There already is a footnote (the first efn-lr template after the time) for the Tesla Model S Plaid regarding the surface. If something similar was used for the Rimac Nevera, it should get a footnote too. However, I have previously suggested that we not include times on prepped surfaces at all - see Talk:List of fastest production cars by acceleration/Archive 3#New rules needed. If we ever decide to implement that rule, it should be added above the list. --Vossanova ^o< 19:19, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

You are saying - If something similar was used for the Rimac Nevera, it should get a footnote too. Well, 1,9 seconds from Nevera is on prepped drag racing surface, best time on normal asphalt is 2.08 seconds. I agree with you, this article should not include times on prepped surfaces.SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 01:38, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I disagree. The numbers should be representative of the vehicle's ability. Any dragstrip should be a prepped surface and I suspect a majority of the vehicles on this list were timed at a dragstrip. Whether this should be noted is subjective. Someone looking to top the list would almost certainly put in the effort of prepping the surface. TonyBerry (talk) 17:12, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

new fastest to 60

Dodge Demon 170 0-60 at 1.66 seconds 74.5.146.234 (talk) 19:31, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

It was tested by Dodge (not an independent source), it was on a prepped surface, and it is not yet in production. --Vossanova ^o< 21:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Alignment of list eligibility rules

Do people think the rules for this list should be more closely related to the Production car speed record rules below:

List rules Because of the inconsistencies with the various definitions of production cars, dubious claims by manufacturers and self-interest groups, and inconsistent or changing application of the definitions this list has a defined set of requirements. For further explanation of how these were arrived at see the talk pages of both this article and the above link. After the Koenigsegg Agera RS was found not eligible for this list since only 11 cars had engines rated higher than 865 kW, the former 25 car minimum was dropped and replaced with new rules based on suggestions by Koenigsegg PR manager Steven Wade.

Post 1945 and over 200 km/h (124 mph) This list is also limited to post World War II production road cars which reached more than 200 km/h (124 mph), older cars are excluded even if they were faster. The Benz Velo as the first petrol driven car is the only exception.

Production car definition For the purposes of this list, a production car is defined as a vehicle that is:

• constructed principally for retail sale to consumers, for their personal use, to transport people on public roads (no commercial or industrial vehicles are eligible)
• available for commercial sale to the public in the same specification as the vehicle used to achieve the record
• manufactured in the record-claiming specification by a manufacturer whose WMI number is shown on the VIN, including vehicles that are modified by either professional tuners or others that result in a VIN with a WMI number in their name (for example, cars manufactured by RUF with Porsche parts and RUF's WMI W09 are eligible; cars modified by them with Porsche's WMI, WP0, aren't)
• pre-1981 vehicles must be made by the original vehicle manufacturer and not modified by either professional tuners or individuals

street-legal in its intended markets, having fulfilled the homologation tests or inspections required under either a) United States of America, b) European Union, or c) Japanese law to be granted this status

• sold in more than one national market.

Measurement of top speed To establish the top speed for cars the requirement is, in addition to the above, an independent road test with a two-way run. The mean of the top speed for both runs is taken as the car's top speed. In instances where the top speed has been determined by removing the limiter, the test met these requirements, and the car is sold with the limiter on then the limited speed is accepted as meeting this requirement. For the McLaren F1 the estimation by Car and Driver about the speed at the rev-limiter is used. NealeWellington (talk) 09:49, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2023

Please add the 2022 Porsche 911 GTS (992) to the list of fastest production cars as it completes 0-60 mph in 2.8 seconds. Source: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a38665114/2022-porsche-911-gts-by-the-numbers/ 162.196.81.238 (talk) 15:08, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done Actualcpscm (talk) 15:39, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for adding. But the source (Car & Driver) tested the GTS model as going 2.8 seconds (not the 4 GTS model). The “911 Carrera GTS” is the rear wheel drive model and the “911 Carrera 4 GTS” is the four-wheel drive model. I see the source from Motortrend testing the 4 GTS also going 2.8 seconds. Perhaps you can add “Porsche 911 Carrera GTS and 4 GTS” or add another entry for the “Porsche 911 Carrera GTS” since that model also goes 2.8 seconds 0-60? Source: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a38665114/2022-porsche-911-gts-by-the-numbers 162.196.81.238 (talk) 06:28, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done Drachentötbär (talk) 14:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Rimac Nevera (2023)

I think it's safe to finally pull the trigger on adding the Rimac Nevera to the list. See the Rimac Newsroom regarding the recent test run, and the talk archive regarding previous discussion. It was organized by Rimac, but there were two independent verifiers at the test. Many reputable auto publications and websites have reported the test as well. It was done on production road-legal tires, and on a non-prepped surface. I think the only remaining matter is the production of 25 cars, which has been difficult to verify, but given the car has been in production for around a year now, I can believe they've reached that number, whether or not they have actually delivered them all yet. --Vossanova ^o< 18:49, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Agree. I suggest adding a footnote to rule 3 like "It's sufficient if 25 cars were sold and deliveries have started" to handle such cases.Drachentötbär (talk) 22:47, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Agree. Just don't forget to write new results, as current results are few years old.--Opatijac97 (talk) 11:31, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

New results should be:
By acceleration to 60 mph (97 km/h) (less than 3 seconds): 1.74 s
By 1/4 mile or 402 meter times (11.0 seconds or less): 8.25 s (up to 1 foot rollout)
By 0–100 km/h (0–62 mph) time (3.0 seconds or less): 1.81 s

No rollout allowed in the 0-100 km/h table so we can't enter the time there. Drachentötbär (talk) 14:55, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Removed Nevera, 25 cars are not made, not to mention sold or delivered to potential customers. In the company financial records you can read that they have not sold a single car. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.227.94 (talk) 23:05, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this? At least one post-August 2022 when full production is believed to have started? Rimac stated in their latest press release that: "The Rimac Nevera is limited to 150 examples and it is currently being built on the outskirts of Zagreb, with deliveries ongoing to customers all over the world." --Vossanova ^o< 16:09, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

You have financial records, for both Pininfarina and Rimac. For Rimac you can find them here, https://rgfi.fina.hr/JavnaObjava-web/prijava.do or here https://sudreg.pravosudje.hr/registar/f?p=150:28:0::NO:28:P28_SBT_MBS:080712981

In the report, page 56, it says that they have not have not sold a single car.

You want reputable auto publications and websites? They have reported on numerous occasions, for example:

2018:

$2.1-Million Rimac C_Two Almost Sold Out Three Weeks Since Debut

https://www.motor1.com/news/237648/rimac-c-two-sold-out/

£1.5m Rimac C_Two hypercar almost sold out in three weeks

https://web.archive.org/web/20180330012827/https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-geneva-motor-show/%C2%A315m-rimac-ctwo-hypercar-almost-sold-out-three-weeks

Rimac C_Two Almost Sold Out With Buyers Spending Over $600,000 On Options!

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/03/potent-rimac-c_two-almost-sold-three-weeks-premiere/

Again in 2021:

Rimac has sold out the first year of C_Two production

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/rimac-has-sold-out-first-year-ctwo-production

1887 HP Rimac C_Two Electric Supercar Is Officially Sold Out For 2021

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/01/19/1887-hp-rimac-c_two-electric-supercar-is-officially-sold-out/

Then in 2022 Rimac said the news from 2018., and 2021. were misunderstanding in communication, that Nevera is not sold out.

https://www.index.hr/vijesti/clanak/rimac-automobili-za-index-nevera-nije-rasprodana-to-je-bio-nesporazum/2353495.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.227.94 (talk) 19:32, May 22, 2023 (UTC)

That is financial report for 2021 and serial production started in mid-2022 so it is not expected to see sold cars before they assembly in factory.--Opatijac97 (talk) 20:15, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Rimac 2018 - we will deliver the first cars to the customers in the begining of 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b28GvnzMm3U

2019 - we are starting serial production

https://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/mate-rimac-u-velikom-intervjuu-za-jutarnji-sedam-posto-tvrtke-dat-cu-radnicima-od-cistacice-do-direktora-8868560

2020 - we are starting serial production

https://www.bug.hr/biznis/rimac-automobili-otvorili-proizvodni-pogon-u-velikom-trgoviscu-15512

2021 - we are starting serial production

https://www.nacional.hr/tvrtka-rimac-automobili-pocinje-serijski-proizvoditi-model-c_two/

2022 - we are starting serial production

https://www.autonet.hr/aktualno/vijesti/pokrenuta-serijska-proizvodnja-nevere-i-battiste/ 141.136.227.94 (talk) 20:54, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

You did not address Opatijac97's reply that the report you provided was from 2021. You just spammed us with some more links which do not provide current information. This is not helpful and suggests some kind of vendetta against the company. Be honest about the point you're trying to make or else we have to assume your edits are in bad faith. --Vossanova ^o< 21:46, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

While you believe that they made 25 road legal cars, that are going to be delivered to the customers, I am pointing out actual facts. If you don't like facts, I can like you believe that for example Aspark Owl and McMurtry Spéirling also made 25 road legal cars, and that they should also be included in the list. Like you, I don't have any proof, but I believe in it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.227.94 (talk) 22:04, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

The note in rule 3 says that it's sufficient if 25 cars were sold and deliveries have started, which is definitely the case.Drachentötbär (talk) 00:12, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Do you have any proof except saying that you believe that 25 cars were sold? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.131.118 (talk) 01:08, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

We have several sources saying that 50 cars were are already sold and no substantial reason to doubt it. That's enough. For the other entries we didn't require more, just check the table. For almost no entry there's a proof of the numbers built and if there are numbers they are originating from the manufacturer. Why do you want that the Rimac Nevera is treated differently and what exactly do you demand as proof ? Should we delete all other entires too since there was no independent notary counting the cars personally ? Drachentötbär (talk) 02:13, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Your several sources saying that 150 cars were sold -

2018

https://www.motor1.com/news/237648/rimac-c-two-sold-out/

https://web.archive.org/web/20180330012827/https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-geneva-motor-show/%C2%A315m-rimac-ctwo-hypercar-almost-sold-out-three-weeks

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/03/potent-rimac-c_two-almost-sold-three-weeks-premiere/

Then again in 2021

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/rimac-has-sold-out-first-year-ctwo-production

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/01/19/1887-hp-rimac-c_two-electric-supercar-is-officially-sold-out/

Then in 2022 Rimac said said the news from 2018., and 2021. were misunderstanding in communication, that Nevera is not sold out.

Regarding financial reports, last financial report, page 56, it says that they have not sold a single car. They don't have newer report, Rimac paid a fine for not delivering 2021 financial records on time in 2022.

https://www.poslovni.hr/hrvatska/rimac-kaznjen-jer-nisu-fini-predali-financijsko-izvjesce-za-2021-godinu-4367590

https://zimo.dnevnik.hr/clanak/rimac-grupa-jos-nije-objavila-izvjesce-o-poslovanju-za-proslu-godinu-dnevnik-nove-tv-analizira-moguce-razloge---765128.html

We can wait for newer financial records, or are you pushing this thing that you are believing that they have sold 25 cars (now you say 50), which is breaking all wikipedia rules, facts are facts, beliefs are beliefs (belief meaning - an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof).

Other then that you can't prove that they have sold not 150, not 50, not 25, but any cars, your only argument is that you believe they have.

If you mention Nico Rosberg, his plates are NW, meaning Neustadt an der Weinstraße, he has two companies there, https://rosberg.de/team/ and https://tre-gmbh.com/. Second is known for:

TRE GmbH is one of the leading companies in the field of chassis development. It works for many well-known car manufacturers and brings the experience from motorsport into series projects.

This means that TRE GmbH is not only used to state-of-the-art technology, but also at a high pace of development. And it covers the entire performance spectrum of chassis development – from the first idea on a white piece of paper to the production-ready prototype. Of course, TRE GmbH also masters the handling of innovative materials such as aluminum, high-strength steels and composite materials.

That Rosbergs company TRE GmbH is a part of IAV GmbH which was working on development for Concept Two later renamed to Nevera

Rimac and IAV team up on E-Hypercar project

14.12.2020 — Berlin/Zagreb. Technology company and hypercar manufacturer Rimac Automobili and the Berlin based engineering specialist IAV are cooperating on the final stages of development of the C_Two electric super sports car: At its test center in Stollberg, IAV is testing the heart of the new vehicle, the almost 2.000 HP Rimac electric drive, alongside other components. Together with the testing service provider SLG Prüf- und Zertifizierungs GmbH, IAV is also determining the components’ reaction to extreme temperatures and their electromagnetic compatibility – all important steps for Rimac in order to achieve readiness for series production in 2021 and certification of the electric super sports car in a timely manner.

https://www.iav.com/en/news/rimac-and-iav-team-up-on-e-hypercar-project/

Some journalists in Croatia were sceptical that Rosberg paid the car, and then got answer from Rimac, it's not translatable, but it's an insult, something like - Vulture trash, Rosberg paid the full price

https://www.index.hr/vijesti/clanak/mate-rimac-smeca-lesinarska-rosberg-je-platio-punu-cijenu/2385484.aspx

Then he got few responses - Mate Rimac is actually a big piece of vulture trash

Children should not suffer the consequences of their parents' misdeeds

It is notorious that their offspring should not be condemned for the crimes of parents. Of course, assuming that they themselves are not involved in the crime. That, for example, they did not invest the criminally acquired capital in their own business. And Mate Rimac did exactly that. As a small vulture, he invested the first ten million kunas - which his father could give him because he shamelessly stole from a business partner - in a 'business' that aimed to "kill two birds with one stone". On the one hand, to satisfy their extravagant desires - to have a furious car with their own name, and on the other hand - on the false premise that it is an extraordinary project of a top inventor - to rebrand the image of the Rimac Family.

https://plusportal.hr/kolumne/mate-rimac-je-ustvari-veliko-smece-lesinarsko-46658

https://teleskop.hr/hrvatska/https-teleskop-hr-hrvatska-kocijaski-napad-razmazenog-izumitelja-kako-je-mate-rimac-zbog-jednog-bezazlenog-naslova-napao-teleskop-smeca-jedna-lesinarska/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.131.118 (talk) 03:50, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Opatijac97 As I can see, nobody provided any real proof that 25 cars were sold or delivered. You are mentioning consensus, it's like you have consensus that Holocaust and extermination camps didn't exist, which of course is not the truth. Markkonen (talk) 03:25, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I also did an extensive search through the internet and have not been able to find out anything useful. All I can see is that 1 car was "sold" to Nico Rosberg and maybe a few more have been made beyond that, but apart from stating the intention to build no more than 150, no other numbers are talked about. I also went through all the above articles and these did not add any additional information. I conclude that there is no verifiable number for the Rimac Nevera's sold. Sorry User:Drachentötbär and others, but based on the pages 25 car rule the Rimac does not qualify yet. NealeWellington (talk) 05:13, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

As was already posted above:

https://n1info.hr/english/news/rimac-group-50-neveras-and-99-mistrals-sold-so-far/

The company has officially declared that 50 cars were sold. That's proof enough. Drachentötbär (talk) 12:06, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

In 2018, and again in 2021 the company has officially declared that 150 cars were sold. In 2022 Rimac retracted the story, saying it was misunderstanding. Starting price is $2,5 million, 2,5x50=125, yet in preliminary financial report for 2022, operating revenue is 12,41 millions, with a loss -33.43 millions. Markkonen (talk) 17:01, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't believe it is our job to determine whether or not a statement to the media from a manufacturer is accurate or not, that is the media's role, unless we intend to physically go into the factory and count the number of cars or audit their books. The report says 50 have been sold so that is good enough. If they retract the statement or evidence to the contrary arrives at some later date then we remove the data. User:Drachentötbär's reference is from a reliable source so it stands surely. NealeWellington (talk) 22:45, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Here's a high quality source which states that 50 cars were already sold: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/technik-motor/elektromobilitaet/rimac-nevera-die-ersten-exemplare-kommen-auf-die-strasse-18180144.html Drachentötbär (talk) 23:27, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

That is just one of many articles that was copy - pasted from Rimac press release

https://www.rimac-newsroom.com/press-releases/rimac-automobili/first-production-ready-rimac-nevera-takes-to-the-streets

To mention once more, in 2018, and again in 2021 the company has officially declared that 150 cars were sold. In 2022 Rimac retracted the story, saying it was misunderstanding. Then again in 2022 and 2023 this time instead of 150 cars they said that 50 cars are sold, but there is no proof of that. Starting price is $2,5 million, 2,5x50=125, yet in preliminary financial report for 2022, operating revenue is 12,41 million, with a loss of -33.43 million. So again no proof that 25 cars were sold and preliminary financial report clearly shows that. Markkonen (talk) 02:17, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

You say they haven't - what is the current reliable source that backs your statement? Current sources say they have so the earlier ones are irrelevant. Side note: please everyone hold off the edit war as we all need to reach a conclusion in this discussion. NealeWellington (talk) 04:54, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Numerous earlier sources again and again during the years said they sold 150 of them, that later proved to be false. Why do you think that this time, numbers coming again from Rimac PR are true (fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me)? My sources are financial reports from 2021, zero cars sold, and also preliminary financial report from 2022. If they don't break the law again, latest audited report should be available during the next month. From the preliminary report there is no way that 25 cars were sold, not to mention 50. Markkonen (talk) 05:58, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

That is the classic story for that kind of startups, over-promise & under-deliver. They claim a lot of BS, for example that they have sold xy number of cars. I'm more interested in claims that they produce everything by themselves, which can't be further from the truth. They make money from programming and R&D. Most of the components like electric motors, monocoque, etc., are made by other companies. Hell, even the BMS is not theirs.

https://www.analog.com/en/about-adi/news-room/press-releases/2019/12-2-2019-rimac-chooses-analog-devices-to-enable-precision-battery-management.html

Regarding cars, Porsche SE who owns VW AG, and therefore Porsche AG, who owns Porsche Ventures, have different plans for Rimac, quote:

"It is envisaged that further in the future the activities of Bugatti Rimac d.o.o. will focus on a joint product portfolio under the Bugatti brand name with the aim of developing, producing and selling electric-powered, luxury hyper sports cars."

https://www.volkswagenag.com/presence/investorrelation/publications/annual-reports/2023/volkswagen/Y_2022_e.pdf

Without Bugatti name, they have no name, no history, no heritage... I highly doubt they will ever sell more than a handful of cars under Rimac name. Automotive engineer (talk) 15:28, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

They only have to sell 25 cars to make this list. They claim to have sold 50. The problem I have is that there is a reliable source stating that and we are choosing to ignore that because of a previous retraction and what appear to be some personal biases. NealeWellington (talk) 21:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Press release from Rimac which other media outlets copy pasted is not in any way reliable source. For those who are following Rimac more closely, and for more than a decade, Rimac is a known liar (not to mention criminal activities including Ivan Rimac and HDZ, but that is another story). Or you can believe that he will be the first who will make robotaxis with autonomous level 5 next year. In 2021. he said they will present robotaxis in the beginning of 2022. That was the plan according to National plan of Recovery and Resilience from which Croatian Democratic Community (HDZ) without any contract award procedure gave them 200 million euros, despite saying earlier that he don't want to do robotaxis

https://novac.jutarnji.hr/novac/aktualno/rimac-ne-zelim-raditi-robotaksije-moji-ce-auti-vozace-uciti-sigurnoj-brzoj-voznji-7638954

While I'm mentioning autonomous driving, Rimac said the Concept Two, later renamed to Nevera comes with Level 4 autonomous driving:

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/18423/rimacs-new-hypercar-could-have-120-kwh-battery-level-4-autonomy

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/new-1900bhp-rimac-ctwo-258mph-self-driving-electric-hypercar

https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/6/17086808/rimac-concept-two-electric-hypercar-geneva-motor-show-2018

That is also stated as a fact in Wikipedia article about Nevera, but I don't have the will or the time to "fight" with Rimac fanboys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimac_Nevera

To get to the point and keep it short (because you can read about a year for all lies that came from Rimac), to this date, one Nevera was "sold" and delivered to Nico Rosberg. There are two more cars that are going to be delivered, one to Ash Crest Collection:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CstYgCnOSyJ/?igshid=MmJiY2I4NDBkZg==

And one to The Triple F Collection:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Csunn1NtY-x/?igshid=MmJiY2I4NDBkZg==

Deliveries will be big PR campaigns, it will all be public and very well covered, in fact, Rimac himself will be unveiling the car for The Triple F Collection.

That are three cars (two not yet delivered). We can also make a bet, you are referring to claim from 2022. that 50 cars were sold. We will see the number of cars in annual financial report for 2022. I'm willing to "put my money where my mouth is", if the report shows that at 25 cars are sold, I will "delete" my account from Wikipedia and I will never again edit anything on Wikipedia. If the report shows that 25 cars are not sold, you will "delete" your account from Wikipedia and you will never again edit anything on Wikipedia. What do you (or anyone else) say, is there anyone else who is willing to bet? SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 02:59, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Several things in reply - whether or not Mate Rimac is an honorable man or not is irrelevant to this discussion. It also has nothing to do with fan boys - I couldn't care a less whether the car was made by an obscure no-name manufacturer or made by General Motors. The whole question at hand is whether or not a reliable source says 25 cars or more were made. It does not matter where the reliable source got its data from. If at some later date better information comes to hand from a reliable source that says that it was complete b.s. and only 3 were made, then this would be grounds to delete the car from this list. At this point in time, other than what appears to be peoples suspicions based on earlier retracted/disproved/contradictory statements, there is nothing at present to contradict the 50 car statement.

I appreciate Makkonen and your skepticism about Rimac's claim. I also think in the long run you could well be proven correct, but at this point in time there is nothing that can be used to prove the 50 car claim wrong or at least nothing any of us can find in the public arena.

As to betting - well that's up to you. I'm not interested as the information used in Wiki comes from sources none of us have control over. NealeWellington (talk) 03:50, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Rimac and his press release which for more then a decade publishes lies and exaggerations which are then copy pasted by other media outlets are NOT a reliable source. If more than a decade of lies and exaggerations are not enough for you, then you still believe that WMD exist in Iraq, because it was published by reliable sources. Reliable sources also published various claims that were the "truth" about Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos, Trevor Milton and Nikola, Sam Bankman-Fried and FTX, Adam Neumann and WeWork, Charlie Javice and Frank, Markus Braun and Wirecard, and many, many more. There is a reliable source, name for that is annual financial report, annual report for 2021 says zero cars sold, annual report for 2022 should be published (if Rimac doesn't break the law again) during the next month. By preliminary figures which are published:

https://infobiz.fina.hr/

https://www.poslovna.hr/

https://www.fininfo.hr/

https://www.bon.hr/

https://www.companywall.hr/

https://www.insolve.hr/

They have not sold 25 cars. SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 00:17, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Several reputable sources reported that 50 cars were sold as a fact and not as factory claim: Neue Zürcher Zeitung, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and others. It's very unlikely that they all failed their fact checking and misinformed their readers. Since Wikipedia is based on reliable sources and not on suspicions we should add the car now. Drachentötbär (talk) 22:21, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

It's very likely that they all failed to fact check, because they literally copy pasted press release:

https://www.rimac-newsroom.com/press-releases/rimac-automobili/first-production-ready-rimac-nevera-takes-to-the-streets

I will repeat myselsf:

Rimac and his press release which for more then a decade publishes lies and exaggerations which are then copy pasted by other media outlets are NOT a reliable source. If more than a decade of lies and exaggerations are not enough for you, then you still believe that WMD exist in Iraq, because it was published by reliable sources. Reliable sources also published various claims that were the "truth" about Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos, Trevor Milton and Nikola, Sam Bankman-Fried and FTX, Adam Neumann and WeWork, Charlie Javice and Frank, Markus Braun and Wirecard, and many, many more. There is a reliable source, name for that is annual financial report, annual report for 2021 says zero cars sold, annual report for 2022 should be published (if Rimac doesn't break the law again) during the next month. By preliminary figures which are published:

https://infobiz.fina.hr/

https://www.poslovna.hr/

https://www.fininfo.hr/

https://www.bon.hr/

https://www.companywall.hr/

https://www.insolve.hr/

They have not sold 25 cars. SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 00:18, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

@SoldierBoy12345: Please stop spamming the talk page - it does not help your argument in any way. You can stop grinding your axe; it's sharp enough already. We are always looking for reliable sources, and if we can't find enough reliable data, we will have to leave new content out. But pages and pages of grievances against people and companies are only going to discourage editors from participating in discussion. This doesn't make us "fanboys", we are just trying to stay neutral. --Vossanova ^o< 15:29, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Facts are not spam. SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 15:36, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Was the source stating the number Rimac Nevera's built reliable

To all concerned - the issue as I see it is whether or not reliable sources should be believed when assessing if Rimac has built more than 25 Nevera's. Drachentötbär has put forward Neue Zürcher Zeitung, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and others. SoldierBoy12345 and Markkonen, citing a number of examples, say that based on Rimac's previous history Rimac are not to be believed and the reliable sources are being mislead. My argument is that regardless of Rimac's past history a reliable source stating that they have made more than 25 Nevera's is sufficent to have them added to this article unless at some future date it is refuted.

Is what I have written a fair summary of the issue and everyone's position? NealeWellington (talk) 23:30, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Anyone can put forward whichever media outlet, information about 50 sold cars is from here:

https://www.rimac-newsroom.com/press-releases/rimac-automobili/first-production-ready-rimac-nevera-takes-to-the-streets

Fun fact, on the first picture of that press release, only the first car is homologated (only for EU and USA, they have received money from Croatia for R&D and worldwide homologation, including China but they decided they will not do that, despite of their claims that they sell more then 80% of their cars to the China, and despite of claims they are opening dealer showrooms in the China), others are prototypes and crash test cars which have been assembled for that picture.

https://slobodnadalmacija.hr/vijesti/biznis/rimac-preko-80-posto-nasih-automobila-prodali-smo-u-kini-302319

https://www.autonet.hr/aktualno/vijesti/rimac-automobili-otvorili-prvi-prodajni-salon-u-kini/

If someone has more then a decade of lies and exaggerations, what makes you think that this time they are telling the truth or they are not exaggerating? Why don't you check the preliminary numbers from annual financial report? Why don't we wait for the full annual report? SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 00:34, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

• Thanks for your reply SoldierBoy. Just a couple of questions I need your help with:

1. has Bugatti Rimac DOO put out an annual report since 2021 and if not what is its status under Croation law? The Volkswagen Group annual report says:

Initially, Bugatti Rimac d.o.o. will produce two hypercar models, the Bugatti Chiron and the Rimac Nevera. It is envisaged that further in the future the activities of Bugatti Rimac d.o.o. will focus on a joint product portfolio under the Bugatti brand name with the aim of developing, producing and selling electric-powered, luxury hyper sports cars.

2. is there any more recent negative press about Rimac as the information you are citing is now quite old?

A side note and possibly the origin to the 50 cars produced: Rimacs Asian sales partner said in an August 2022 press release that Rimac would be capable of producing about 50 cars per annum and that the first years production is already sold out.Kingsway Holdaings NealeWellington (talk) 04:46, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

1. Company Bugatti Rimac was founded/listed in court register in September 2021., they don't have annual report.

https://sudreg.pravosudje.hr/registar/f?p=150:28:0::NO:28:P28_SBT_MBS:081394494

That company is under Rimac Group:

https://sudreg.pravosudje.hr/registar/f?p=150:28:0::NO:28:P28_SBT_MBS:080712981

Easiest explanation:

Under the deal announced on Monday, Rimac, which is backed by Porsche and Hyundai, will own 55 per cent of the new company, while VW’s Porsche brand will own the rest. That means Porsche will control 58.2 per cent of the final company through its existing shares in Rimac if its Rimac stake is included, though the businesses said that the carmaker will not have a say in how the combined unit is run. No money changed hands through the deal, Porsche boss Oliver Blume said on Monday.

https://www.ft.com/content/56be5f08-fe6e-481f-ba6d-71ef49d2cfc4

2. Recent negative press about Rimac is about 200 million euros they got from Croatia for autonomous level 5 robotaxis and 200.000 m2 of land near capital of Croatia, number of sold cars are not obviously not important. Just to mention one more "reliable source", ARD/Tagesschau published article

http://web.archive.org/web/20210722090855/https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/mate-rimac-bugatti-vw-101.html

Quote:

"150 pieces are manufactured per year."

- no comment needed there

"Within just three weeks, the company developed an electric motor for Porsche that achieves a 30 percent longer range, and this also convinced the engineers in Swabia."

- electric motors don't have impact on range, also, Rimac is not manufacturing electric motors. Electric motors used in hybrid Porsche versions are Bosch IMG-300

https://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/pressreleases/pag/?id=320678&pool=international-de

Electric motors and transmission for Taycan and e-tron is from Schaeffler:

https://www.electricmotorengineering.com/schaeffler-the-mass-production-of-electric-motors/

Other electric motors will be from the new VW factory:

In the future, Győr will supply the new electric drives for the Group's all-electric models, which are based on the "Premium Platform Electric (PPE)" developed jointly with Porsche.

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/press-releases/audi-hungaria-produces-e-motors-for-future-ppe-model-generation-13713

Batteries are from Dräxlmaier:

DRÄXLMAIER gestaltet eine nachhaltige Zukunft - mit emissionsfreier Mobilität. Das Unternehmen entwickelt und produziert leistungsfähige Batteriesysteme für die Elektro-mobilität. Zum Beispiel in Sachsenheim, wo wir als System-Integrator ein leistungsstarkes 800-Volt-Gesamtbatterie-system für den Porsche Taycan fertigen.

https://www.draexlmaier.com/sachsenheim

800V system is from Le Mans winner, 919 hybrid

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/products/iaa-2015-porsche-mission-e-mobility-all-electrically-concept-car-11391.html

https://www.porsche.com/international/aboutporsche/innovation/innovation-missione/

Rimac has been involved with battery packs for ETCR concepts/prototypes for Seat and Hyundai ETCR, but they had overheating problems so they switched to Williams Advanced Engineering:

The platform’s technical boss Gergely Bari says a number of updates have been made throughout the development process to avoid such issues, including the switch from Rimac Automobili to Williams Advanced Engineering battery packs.

https://sportscar365.com/ev-racing/etcr-confident-it-wont-have-overheating-problems/

3. Regarding link from Kingsway Holdings, that is also copy paste from Rimac press release:

https://www.rimac-newsroom.com/press-releases/rimac-automobili/nevera-electrifies-monterey-car-week SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 15:32, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

So having read through all the articles my conclusions are:

1. Rimac cars are made by a company owned to mainly by Volkswagen with Mate Rimac as a joint shareholder.

2. There is nothing at present to refute Rimac's claim that 50 Nevera's have been made and the claim is also stated, unchallenged, in independent reliable sources

3. I can not find a reason to withhold the Rimac Nevera from this list.

I am happy to seek some independent arbitration on this matter if you wish, but other wise User:Drachentötbär should be free to add this item as it meets the lists criteria. NealeWellington (talk) 01:28, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

1. Sort of, from the latest annual report from 2021 Rimac had 23,4% of the Rimac Group, Porsche Investments 20,4%, and then the rest with smaller shares. Some more facts, China Dynamics in 2014 bought 10% for 5 million euros, and in their annual reports from 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 one sentence is repeating, "Rimac has not yet made any positive contribution", so in 2018 Porsche Investments bought 10% from China Dynamics. China Dynamics investing in Rimac was big news, China Dynamics leaving Rimac was not news, meanwhile Porsche Investments investment (who bought 10% from China Dynamics which was not stated) was presented as big news.

2. Again, more than a decade of Rimac lies and exaggerations, including number of sold cars. In 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2022, paraphrasing you "there was nothing to refute Rimac's claim that 150 Nevera's have been sold and the claim is also stated, unchallenged, in independent reliable sources". In TV interviews during mentioned years, Rimac avoided answering the questions about 150 sold cars. Then in 2022. Rimac/Rimac press release said that claim that 150 cars were sold was misunderstanding, and in the same year they have a new claim, now they claim they sold 50 cars. Meanwhile, from preliminary annual numbers, operating revenue - 12,41 million, with a loss of -33,43 million and a car which starting price is 2,5 million, simple elementary mathematics indicates they could sold 4,9 cars (but the fact is their main income is providing services like programming and R&D).

3. I can. And I will ask you again, why can't we wait for the full annual report for 2022? If it says they sold 25 cars (Nevera, not Bugatti Chiron or other Bugatti models), I will personally put Nevera to the list.

4. I strongly disagree with adding before we see annual report. Also, regarding "acceptable and reliable sources", I would suggest that you see this talk page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Drachent%C3%B6tb%C3%A4r

Autozine topic is most interesting, it seems that you and Drachentötbär have a long history of agreeing with each other what should be added and what is acceptable and what is not. If there is going to be a consensus in which you will not wait for the annual report, but you will choose to believe proven liars and exaggerators, can I count on you to back me up when I start editing various Wikipedia pages (including Rimac page) with all the lies and projects that was announced? For example one of the announced projects are space elevators, and a claim that a customer who bought Nevera offered Rimac to fly to the Moon with him. Or a claim in which Rimac in an interview after Hammond crashed said that the crashed car was customers, but annual report from that year clearly showed that car was in property of the company and that insurance will pay the company, and that is just for a start of countless lies. SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 02:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I have a proof they sold more than 25 cars:

https://estore.rimac-automobili.com/product/hotwheelsnevera/

I don't know if 1/64 Hot Wheels model qualifies... Markkonen (talk) 14:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi Markkonen - there are enough reliable sources stating that they have made more than 25 cars- if you wish to have this car reverted please present a reliable source that post dates these sources saying that they haven't.NealeWellington (talk) 07:46, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi, Rimac PR which is then copy-pasted in various media is not reliable source. There was new discussion few days ago in Croatian media, including the number of sold cars (not mentioned in the article which contains just a fraction from the interview, but it is in the video), title (translated from Croatian) - About Rimac: 'If I'm a professional hater, he's a professional liar':

https://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/najpoznatiji-domaci-hejter-na-facebooku-i-informaticki-strucnjak-o-rimcu-oni-su-profesionalni-lazovi-15342198

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVB8o6M4410 Markkonen (talk) 06:17, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate that there are questions about Mate Rimac circulating, but he is only one of several owners - the main one being Volkswagen Group. I suspect that Vlokswagon would be fairly sensitive about fake news given the problems they had from their fuel debacle a few years back. From the translation of the article you cite, there is no comment about the number of vehicles made. For a change to be made you really need to find a reliable source that states it is less than 25. NealeWellington (talk) 05:58, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

He is the main owner, he still owns majority. List of VW scandals, starting from most famous one - Dieselgate is long, and they don't care what is Rimac taking, Rimac is not publicly traded company (they have postponed IPO several times). You are not reading what I wrote, and like I previously wrote, Rimac PR which is then copy-pasted in various media is not reliable source. There was new discussion few days ago in Croatian media, including the number of sold cars (not mentioned in the article which contains just a fraction from the interview, but it is in the video).

There are also some other articles, older ones and newer ones, for example:

https://www.bilten.org/?p=22989

https://forum.tm/vijesti/sto-zapravo-proizvodi-mate-rimac-7815

https://www.bilten.org/?p=44365

https://www.paraf.hr/hdz-ov-poduzetnik-poslovni-mediji-sve-se-vise-sprdaju-s-rimcem-pretvara-vodu-u-vino/

https://www.paraf.hr/ovo-je-bomba-na-internetu-osvanule-sve-muljaze-mate-rimca-pogledajte-kome-dajemo-novac/

https://www.paraf.hr/video-mate-rimac-nije-proizveo-ni-jedan-auto-ali-zato-radi-prekrasne-video-uratke-ovo-je-novi/

https://www.paraf.hr/iste-novine-drugi-akteri-kada-mediji-po-stoti-puta-objave-da-je-mate-rimac-vizionar-sjetite-se-ovog/

https://www.paraf.hr/raskrinkavanje-rimac-lazno-objavio-kako-je-prodao-150-auta-na-web-shopu-prodaje-makete/

https://www.paraf.hr/razotkriven-iza-davanja-novca-mati-rimcu-ipak-se-krije-tajkunsko-hdz-ovska-muljaza/

My question is, why can't you wait for the annual report? Markkonen (talk) 08:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I am seeking page protection since all that is happening is an edit war. In the mean time I willI seeking assistance to resolve this dispute. NealeWellington (talk) 08:56, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Dispute resolution notice lodged - hopefully we can all reach common ground on this. NealeWellington (talk) 10:36, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

It's closed. Furthermore, from the latest annual financial reports, they have not (at least not yet) produced or sold at least 25 street legal cars. Claims that they have sold 88, 150, 50 cars is for fake it till you make it section, which various media copy-paste it without checking any facts. SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 01:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. There is nothing trustworthy stating they have produced 25 cars (they haven't). Why is the Rimac listed at position one? TonyBerry (talk) 19:42, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Because two or three Rimac fanboys are insisting on adding Nevera to the list. Markkonen (talk) 02:06, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Production car definition

Guinness Book of Records, with various records for longest pissing, spitting, farting, etc., is not authorithy on anything related to vehicles, but they at claim least 50 identical vehicles were needed to be made to constitute a production car.

Various car magazines have different opinions on the subject, depending on who is writing the article.

FIA (Federation Internationale de l'Automobile) is authority on this matter. But for some reason, 25 cars are chosen from FIA Appendix J from 1969, which states:

CLASSIFICATION OF CARS

Art. 251.-Categories and groups: cars competing in events shall be distributed into the following categories and groups:

Category A: recognized production cars (numbers between brackets are those of the required minimum production in 12 consecutive months). - Group 1 : series-production touring cars (5,000). - Group 2 : touring cars (1,000). - Group 3 : grand touring cars (500). - Group 4 : sports cars (25).

https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulations/1437732843/appendix_j_1969.pdf

Lowest number is choosen for Wikipedia definition of production car.

Why is choosen Appendix J from 1969, and not newer one, for example from 1981, which states:

CLASSIFICATIONS OF CARS

Art 251— Categories and groups: Cars competing in events shall be distributed into the follow ing categories and groups:

Category A: Recognised production cars (numbers between brackets are those of the required minimum production in 12 consecutive months, except in Group 4 where the period of production is 24 consecutive months). Group 1: series-production touring cars (5,000) Group 2 : touring cars (1,000) Group 3: series-production grand touring cars (1,000) Group 4: grand touring cars (400) Group 5: special production cars deriving from Groups 1 to 4

https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulations/1439540717/appendix_j_1981.pdf Markkonen (talk) 03:27, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The number 25 was not copied from the FIA Appendix J rules - it's juts a coincidence that the numbers are the same. You can go through the archives to see how we arrived at that number after consideration. In particular Talk:List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration/Archive_1#New_criteria_for_entries, Talk:List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration/Archive_2#"Production" and Talk:List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration/Archive_3#New_rules_needed.

The reasoning is that different bodies had different definitions for what constituted a production car. So in the end we settled on basically a road legal car as built by a manufacturer (not by tuners) with enough numbers to be a series but not so restrictive to eliminate small series.

A related discussion was also held at List of automotive superlatives and its talk page (and archives) for similar reasons and a similar definition. Its not perfect (I don't believe we can make everybody happy) but it's certainly a lot better than what we had before.  Stepho  talk  10:39, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Maybe we should have a new vote on that matter. Markkonen (talk) 02:10, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

No response on this matter? Markkonen (talk) 02:58, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

You may start such a discussion if you like. Personally I think that 25 cars being delivered sounds like a much better rule. I would strongly advise you to start replying to others in a more respectful manner, though, because your current style is not exactly gaining you any supporters.  Mr.choppers | ✎  20:42, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I have no major objection to changing "25 vehicles sold" to "25 vehicles delivered". Subject to consensus of course. The fun part is how do we prove those vehicles were delivered when most of our sources only tell us about vehicles sold? Even more so for so-called hypercars when the owners often prefer to remain anonymous. But I do recognise that some company's definition of sold only means that an intent to buy has been registered and that the vehicle has not been built, paid for or delivered and that the customer may change their mind and cancel the order.  Stepho  talk  11:16, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree on all points. I don't believe I've ever seen any manufacturers reporting when X number of vehicles have been delivered, let alone reliable sources. Short of original research via social media, I don't see any way of verifying the number of deliveries.

Comparing the list of fastest production cars by acceleration and List of production cars by power output is rather telling, in my opinion, due to this list's higher bar for independent testing. Lots of "vaporware" hypercars from that list are missing here (Koenigsegg, Pagani, etc).

Because of this, one thought I had was potentially tightening up other criteria to avoid the need to verify sales or deliveries altogether, but even that has drawbacks. e.g. If the independent testing requirement was further limited to independent sources having specifically conducted their own testing, it could potentially self-select cars whose manufacturers are able to produce at least enough prototypes to be able to give a magazine free-reign of a test vehicle. Even still, it's often difficult to tell when a publication has actually done their own testing or is just parroting manufacturer claims. IPBilly (talk) 02:02, 11 August 2023 (UTC)