Talk:List of racing cyclists and pacemakers with a cycling-related death/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Connie Meijer

1988 : Connie Meijer (P-B) est victime d’un malaise pendant un critérium aux Pays-Bas

http://www.reponseatout.com/article.php3?id_article=187

My French(?) isn't up to this.

Google isn't much help either

"is victim of a faintness during a critérium in the Netherlands"

Entertainingly, a quick web search suggests that many web sites have used the google translation...

BenAveling 09:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

By year

I'll rearrange according to year of death, as the current cluttered list is very confusing to look at.Poulsen 14:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Track

What about track cyclist who died in a race, I have a list of them. Shoud I add them? --Nicola54 (talk) 13:27, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes. The clue is in the title, it's not restricted to roads. Be bold, do it. Autodidactyl (talk) 14:20, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Franco Ballerini

I'm not entirely sure Ballerini should be in the list. First, he was no more a professional cyclist, but the coach of Italian national team. Second, he died not during a bicycle race, but during a car rally race. --Gspinoza (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Sure, removed. --necronudist (talk) 20:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Is this list entirely Original Research

Were is this information coming from? Only like 25% of names are linked to Wikipedia articles and none of the rest have citations supporting their inclusion. Is this list mostly just cyclists enthusiast posting what they "know"? If so, that violates Wikipedia:No original research, and the names should be removed or given citations. Looks like there's been some work put into this list and I would hate to see it all deleted because theirs no proof given. Dkriegls (talk) 05:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Hey Dkriegls, I have no idea about where this list originated. I just stumbled upon it yesterday and thought it could benefit from some attention. Am hoping the two WikiProject Groups it quaifies for (List and Death) will be able to give the article some time. I'm going after some of the names that are Wiki-linked first, figuring information on those cyclists will be more accessible. If some of the information proves problematic, then those names could be deleted . What's good is that they can then be resurrected from 'storage' (like Edit History or wherever an editor would want to park the unsourced assertions) if folks find sources. The subject matter might seem odd, but at the same time I do think it's important. A lot of people don't know how grueling and downright dangerous cycling can be...I know I sure didn't! (until I read through the list). -- Shearonink (talk) 13:55, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

List like this make sense to me and justify a Wikipedia article. Importance is not always a factor when compiling facts for an encyclopedia. The problem with this page is the "facts" part. The page as it stands now is completely useless because their is no foundation for it stand on. The goal of less frequented subject matter like this must first and foremost be external support for its claims. Dkriegls (talk) 22:33, 31 July 2010 (UTC) I may scale it down within a week or two if none of the other editors involved step. Shearonink, I don't necessarily think this task should fall to you, unless you think you would enjoy it. Dkriegls (talk) 22:33, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Take a decade

I've almost completely sourced the 2000s. If others who come by could maybe research a decade this list could be fixed-up in a short amount of time.

Shearonink (talk) 23:43, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced names

I have now started working on the List with the names from the 1800s. If I can find no corroboration for names/information (for instance, I haven't yet been able to find anything on "Froget"), individuals' entries on the List will have to be deleted. Shearonink (talk) 16:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

The best trick is wait patiently until Les Woodland gets off after his 2010 monumental rides plus his latest cycling tome. Then hope that he will get involved over the winter, and almost all will be revealed. Please don't rush to delete, BLP does not apply. will suffice. Chienlit (talk) 19:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Chienlit - No rush to judgement here. Now that enough references have been added and others are working on improving the List any possible deletions can wait, is a great idea. Just want to improve the List as much as possible.---Shearonink (talk) 21:04, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I added a lot of names of riders who died on the track. I made the list myself from German cycling magazines, I am sorry that I cannot source each one of them, because I made the list some years ago for another purpose. --Nicola54 (talk) 20:09, 3 August 2010 (UTC) (from Germany)

Nicola54 - If you can find any of the individual sources you used that would be a huge help. Since I've started to work on this article I've come to think that the subject (while some might consider it morbid or whatever) is very important and these cyclists deserve to be remembered. Shearonink (talk) 21:04, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

@Nicola54, If you used a German cycling magazine to create a core of this list, by all means lets try to track down that magazine. Fill the rest of us in on the details you remember, i.e. Magazine's name and publication date. If you don't remember, give us your best guess. I Wikipedia source does not need to have a web link. Everyone else, good work on the citations. I didn't mean to sound judgmental, just trying to create some desire from editors involved. Dkriegls (talk) 22:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, the problem is, that it is not just ONE source, but many sources. The main source is: German cycling magazine Rad-Welt volumes 1895 - 1936, German cycling magazine Illustrierter Rad-Rennsport 1936-1945, Germany cycling magazine Radsport, 1948 - until today. --Nicola54 (talk) 06:32, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Lead section and photo

Reworked the lead paragraph and added an 1892 photo of professional cyclist Henri Desgrange from Commons for historical interest. Want to remove the intro/'guidelines' (with broom) box but some feedback beforehand would be useful. --- Shearonink (talk) 16:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

ref. 55

That race was definitely a six days race, it is counted officially in their statistics. --Nicola54 (talk) 12:44, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Ah, ok. I guess I think the Note about Walter Rutts comments should stay in because that is what he actually wrote in 1950... maybe I misunderstood his wording? The 1000 Lap race was probably a part (maybe a sub-race?) of the six-day race that was held during the 1940 Race. Also, I'm not sure Rutt was present at the race itself plus his comment do date from 1950, a good ten years after the accident. Shearonink (talk) 14:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I am pretty sure that he was present, because he lived in Berlin and was present all the time ;) And it WAS a six days race, believe me, because I wrote a lot about it.

But I made a mistake, it was not ref. 53, but 55.

The reason for the accident was that the track in post war Berlin was very small and very short, only 2 years later Mirke and van Beek died on the same track.

As you may have seen I am adding source after source, and even dead cyclist after dead cylist - when I am searching in the old papers I pass the notes and add them. If the form is wrong please correct. --Nicola54 (talk) 06:19, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Everything you've been adding is looking pretty fine. I don't know what to do about that Walter Rutt comment....and I was mistaken above when I said his words were published ten years after Ockers's accident. The fatal accident was in 1949 and the magazine was published in 1950. I'll try to dig up the reference again and check the wording....maybe it's a bad translation, maybe I wrote it down wrong, I don't know. If it checks out and those were Rutt's words?...it is the historical record, I don't know what should be done. Shearonink (talk) 10:40, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, I do not know what to do. He was old and bit puzzled, may be?? :) Fact is, that all my sources, many of the statistics, mention this race as six days. Well, he ist dead anyway, the poor guy. I am sorry, I just read the ref. again, and I find I misunderstood something. I will have a look in the old magazine. --Nicola54 (talk) 09:48, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, I must admit Mr. Rütt was right ;) The six days were in December, but this race took place in November and was called "1000 laps". Der Radsport, November 14, 1949. --Nicola54 (talk) 11:50, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Yay for Mr. Rütt! (And thanks for checking that information out, all I could find was his one paraphrased comment that appeared in the American Motorcyle/Bicyclist magazine and that was also after the fact.) Shearonink (talk) 15:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

kudos

I just wanted to revisit this page and make mention of the great work done to bring it up to Encyclopedic standards. Kudo's to all editors involved.Dkriegls (talk) 18:04, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Photo

The photo of the racing is without any connection to the contents of the article.

On the other hand: It shows Henri Desgrange around 1936 and not 1892. Please exchange, --Nicola54 (talk) 20:48, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Nicola54 - I looked through all the biking photos that were available in Commons and at the time this was the best I could find. Wikimedia Commons Henri Desgrange photo says that it is a photo of M. Desgranges in 1892. If this is not the case or if I misunderstood the labeling statement then the info in the File description probably needs to be changed (sorry, but I don't know how to do that). If you want to use another pic from Commons in place of the Desgrange one, I think that would be great. Shearonink (talk) 21:23, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, there is no need at all to put Desgrange, because he died of natural causes :)

Meanwhile I installed the list in German and put photos there of whom I think that they are more related to the topic: [1]

In the German list I made some corrections, I will do that with the English list aswell, step by step. I even found a source for this "Froget" :) --Nicola54 (talk) 09:32, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Per your request, have removed the image of Desgrange even though it is one of my very favorites (of an early cyclist), since it is not one of the cyclists on this List. Would like to find an image to fill out at least one of the early decades, though. Shearonink (talk) 07:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The few unsourced entries...

There are still some unsourced entries left. I am leaving them in for now but am considering removing their names from the List unless references for the circumstances surrounding their deaths can be found. The cluster of deaths in 1913 has proven especially troublesome. There are also some remaining unsourced entries for deaths that occurred while cyclists were training (mostly connected with car collisions).
The presently-unsourced entries are:

• Otto Lutter, track cyclist, 1904...Name removed from List/article...no refs/sources found
• Hans Bachmann, pace maker, 1913 found
• Hans Lange, track cyclist, 1913found
• Max Hansen, track cyclist, October 12, 1913found
• Tommy Godwin, 1975 found
• Michela Fanini, Italy, was struck by a car while training in Italy, 1994 found
• Beryl Burton, United Kingdom. Heart failure, 8 May 1996. found
• Dave Bedwell, United Kingdom found
• Anders Nilsson, Sweden, 2000. National team member in Triathlon, professional. Died when hit by a car during bicycle training. found
• Luke Harrop, Australia. Struck by a car and killed on the Gold Coast, Brisbane, Australia in 2002 on a training ride. found
• Stive Vermaut, Belgium. found
• Scott Peoples, Australia. Struck from behind and killed on a training ride in December 2006 in Victoria. found
• Ryan Cox, South Africa. Burst artery in leg on 1 August 2007, shortly after surgery. found
• Ben Mikic, Australia. Struck by a car while on a training ride in April 2007 in Sydney, Australia deleted from list as this person was not a professional
• Jason MacIntyre, Scotland, UK. Struck by a vehicle on a training ride in January 2008 found
• Frederiek Nolf, Belgium. Died in his sleep during the Tour of Qatar 2009 found
• Sinaida Stahurskaja/Zinaida Stahurskaya, Belarus, struck by a car on a training ride in Belarus, 2009 found

Thanks in advance for any help with this task that interested editors can give. Shearonink (talk) 07:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I've added references for Antonio Martín (not listed), Michela Fanini, Frederiek Nolf and Carly Hibberd. While I was looking for a Michela Fanini reference, I found out that Carly Hibberd rode in a team named after Fanini and died while training in 2011. Drunt (talk) 19:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

As references for the various names are being found, I am putting a strike through the names with found to the side so we can keep the unreferenced names updated. Cheers, Shearonink (talk) 05:45, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The German version of this article (de:Liste von tödlich verunglückten Radrennfahrern) has a reference (nº26) for the three cyclists from 1913. But I'm not sure how we should translate the reference (Sport-Album der Rad-Welt 1913. 12. Jg., Berlin 1914, S. 7.). Is Jg. year? What is S.?

By the way, Ben Mikic was apparently 15 when he died back in 2007 (link) so he probably shouldn't be in this list.Drunt (talk) 20:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree about Mikic.

The "Sport-Album der Rad-Welt 1913" is a wonderful resource that is available to Nicola54, one of the editors who regularly contributes to this List and is active in cycling articles on this Wikipedia and on the German Wikipedia. The "Sport-Album" is referenced elsewhere in this List, I have been hopeful that some other refs could be found as well but that isn't looking very likely. Shearonink (talk) 20:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Thoughts on splitting off Deaths during training or another reason related to cycling

I've been looking at the article recently and was wondering if there would be any objections to splitting off the 'Deaths during training' section. Shearonink (talk) 18:22, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

The current list is rather long, and the 'deaths during training' don't fit with the title, so a split seems very reasonable to me. Qwfp (talk) 19:23, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I've also been thinking the title of this main article should be changed from "List of..." to "Professional cyclists who have died while racing" or maybe "Professional cyclists who have died during a race". The offspring article would be called "Professional cyclists who have died while training or from other cycling-related reasons" or something similar. Any objections or thoughts? Shearonink (talk) 16:18, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be useful if the article could also include non-professional/non-racing cyclists who have died while cycling. Though it would probably have to be limited to 'notable' cyclists. eg Ken Kifer, not sure how many other notable examples there are. --Vclaw (talk) 02:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

A separate article for the non-professionals (however one would define that term) might be do-able. The problem that I have run into is that the sourcing for professional cycling deaths (which I assumed at the beginning would be well-referenced from reliable sources) is often just the opposite....lots of blogs, lots of repetition of rumors and innuendo, lots of generalizations, bits & pieces in old magazines and newspapers...it's very problematic. I can't even begin to imagine how difficult it might be to source notable non-professional/amateur cyclists who have died while racing. There are some Categories that might be helpful starting points if someone wants to take on a separate List or article: Category:Cycling road accident victims and Category:Cyclists killed while racing. Shearonink (talk) 03:37, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Why are there so many people who died in circumstances where they weren't even cycling at the time? Suggest split off into list of professional cyclists who have been stabbed by screwdrivers/drowned/died in their sleep/dies on way to work etc. No?

What is the relevance of listing people who have died whilst cycling many years after retiring from racing. It makes as much sense as a list of professional formula 1 driver who die in road accidents decades after retiring from the sport. Or mountainereers who dies in their eighties from falling down the stairs--FDent (talk) 17:20, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

The relevance is if multiple, independent published sources have information about Formula 1 drivers who have died in car accidents after retirement from the sport, then yes, maybe that information could be included as a Wikipedia List or article. Also, the present form of this List exists because those of us who have worked on improving the article in the past couple of years took it as we found it from the beginning, sourcing every name and the circumstances of death. (If you'd like to see what this article looked like in its previous/unsourced version, take a look at this July 2010 version.) From my research, remembering how professional cyclists have died (with road-side memorials and naming memorial races but also in written form) seems to be an accepted part of cycling's milieu, but if the editorial consensus is to remove certain names/information as being non-encyclopedic, that is fine with me. As one of the major contributors, of course I welcome input as to which names should be removed, having posted this query on WikiProject Cycling as well as posting about it here on this talk page. Shearonink (talk) 18:17, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Breton?

The caption to the first photo references the death of a "Breton" at the Parc du Prince in 1902, yet no such name appears in the list nor is there any 1902 death listed. 69.29.206.62 (talk) 17:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

See the 1900s to 1928 part of the Deaths during training or another reason related to cycling section. Shearonink (talk) 17:58, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Gave an internal link to that section - hope it helps. Shearonink (talk) 18:07, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up. 69.29.206.62 (talk) 19:06, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Moving proposal

The article is not only about cyclists who died during a race, so I propose to move the article to List of professional cyclists who died while cycling, or does someone know an even better title? Sander.v.Ginkel (talk) 13:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I had proposed a possible name-change back in August 2012, but nothing came of it at the time, possibly to "Professional cyclists who have died while racing" or maybe "Professional cyclists who have died during a race", but both "List of professional cyclists who have died while cycling" fine or "Professional cyclists who have died while cycling" are fine with me. Shearonink (talk) 13:42, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Mariano Rojas

Should Mariano Rojas who was killed in a car accident on route to the Spanish championship be included in the second list? --Pirker (talk) 15:22, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Jimmy ...

November 1904 - Full sentence is missing. --Helium4 (talk) 20:59, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

It might not be clear from that section & ref but that is the date (month/year) of Mr. Michael's death. I'll see if I can re-craft it to be more clear. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 05:21, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Think about the title of the page before adding names!

Come on people, did you really think it was right to list the following:

A man who went to France to watch the Tour De France and had a Heart Attack in his hotel room.

A man who was involved in a road accident whilst cycling to a building site to build a house.

A 69 year-old woman who was pushing her bike at a crossing whilst going about her normal daily life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.6.19.71 (talk) 02:46, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

With regards to the last edit on the main page:

Why is that mini-section even here?

Is it really noteworthy and worth a whole section on Wiki if a cyclist has died of a heart attack in a hotel room whilst not in competition or if a cyclist has died decades after retiring when pushing her bike across the road?

So is there a whole Wiki page about F1 drivers who died on a motorway in a Ford Focus or in their bedroom whilst watching the Monaco GP on TV?

How about footballers; is there a section about retired footballers who died of a heart attack whilst in a hotel room after watching The FA Cup Final at Wembley?

How about 50K Olympic walkers. If one of those retired from the sport to become a door-to-door salesman and tripped over the pavement and died, would that be worth mentioning on a Wiki page that wasn't specifically about the person in question?

By all means have a Wiki page about cyclists who have died in competition but I just cannot see the justification for having a Wiki page about cyclists who died whilst cycling to a building site to build a house, died whilst pushing their every day bike across the road aged 69 and, most ludicrously of all, died after having a heart attack in a hotel room after watching(not competing in!) The Tour De France! 86.6.19.71 (talk) 03:58, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

In general, including the cyclists who died in circumstances other than during a race was the way the article was originally constructed. (This is the way the article looked before all the entries were completely referenced. Remembering the various ways that professional cyclists have died, especially as it pertains to cycling - either during a race or during training-rides or even during a pleasure ride - seems to be an accepted part of cycling's culture. There are road-side memorials, trophies are named for cyclists who died in accidents (even if it wasn't during a race, but during a practice run) and so on. Looking at the list one name that has been included that has always bothered me was Xavier Tondo - he wasn't actually cycling or undergoing training or on a day of rest from a race. I do think the sheer number of professional riders who have died since 1994 because of collisions with motorized vehicles (mostly during training but sometimes even during a race) is encyclopedic in nature. And I suppose just because the article was generally constructed this way originally doesn't mean it has to stay in these two main sections. I've removed Tondo's entry from the article. I think the other names should be discussed here on the talk page. Shearonink (talk) 07:31, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I won't make any more edits myself but Rob Goris' name should be considered for removal as he died of a heart attack in his hotel room having watched, rather than competed in, the Tour De France earlier on in the day. 86.6.19.71 (talk) 04:12, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense - hadn't realized Goris' death was during a visit (plus the reference doesn't mention any cycling-connected causes.) I went ahead and removed his name per your suggestion. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 18:10, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Should Junior Heffernan be on this list.

He doesn't appear to meet any of the criteria for notability for cyclists. Sources describe him as an amateur cyclst.BBC Sport. He appears to have never been ridden as a professional or for a professional team.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rehnn83 (talk • contribs) 15:12, 23 July 2015‎ (UTC)

Requested move 30 March 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. — QEDK (T ☕ C) 15:29, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

---

List of professional cyclists who died during a race → List of cyclists who had a cycling related death – I have several reasons for moving the page

Chaning to cycling related - Not all the riders on the page died during a race, a full section is about cycling related deaths

Removing the word during - Not all riders died during cycling, some died a few days later in hospital Ams one committed suicide years after the event.

Removing the word professional - Not all the riders in the list are professional. I just created a new section for non-profs and moved them. Some of them are in many news sources, so should deserve a place in a list like this. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 06:17, 30 March 2016 (UTC) --Relisted.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:04, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Comment. I do not support this stated RFC as delineated above. I do think changing the title to "List of professional cyclists who had a cycling related death" would be very appropriate for the article as it stood before Fox's death was added. However, I think including information about "amateur cyclists who had a cycling related death " (like Fox) starts verging into WP:MEMORIAL territory (that being said, perhaps a stand-alone article about "notable amateur cyclists's deaths" could be attempted). The reason the professional athletes' deaths are noted here in the pages of Wikipedia is that roadside memorials, large public funerals, death investigations, etc are an long-standing part of professional cycling's culture. Shearonink (talk) 16:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I have no objection to the previously-existing amateur names being removed from the article. Not sure Heffernan was an amateur since he rode for a named/sponsored team but I suppose Breedlove was (since he worked as a practicing physician etc.). Shearonink (talk) 16:26, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Looking at the parent category of Category:Deaths in sport there are articles List of baseball players who died during their careers and List of ice hockey players who died during their playing career. I think this list should mirror those naming conventions, such as List of cyclists who died during their career. Thoughts? Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:45, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Hmmmm... I think one problem is that professional cyclists continue to get killed or die while cycling after retirement (with the attendant possible doping and clear road-safety issues) but that might work though. Keeping in mind the history of this article (and if you're wondering why it is named what is is now and why it is in its present form), its previous major, unreferenced version (from July 2010) looked like this. Shearonink (talk) 18:33, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Comment I agree with Lugnuts rationale on the name of the article. As for Shearonink concerns regarding cyclists getting killed post-career, the following could be used:

Section 1 - Professional cyclists who died during their career

Section 2 - Professional cyclists who died post-career

Section 3 - Amateur cyclists who died during their career

That would cover all the bases, for the Ams, if they're notable they go in section 3, if not, then they're not included. XyZAn (talk) 20:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Lugnuts' title-rationale makes some sense. As I said above, though, I think including amateurs on this list is problematic, where would WP draw the line? Who would be included or not... I would be fine with all three present amateurs being deleted - Heffernan (though I still don't quite understand if he was either amateur or pro), Breedlove, and Fox. I am concerned that this article will morph into a catch-all for every cycling-related death in the world... If you think my concerns are unfounded, take a look at List of attacks related to secondary schools, a List-article that has includes every single possible incident that has happened on any high school campus in the world since the 1850s... 857kb of file-size worth.

XyZAn - If the article follows your suggested Sections, then the changeover from its present form would be a long-term project, involving tearing apart the present article and placing everything in the proper place. I'm not saying your suggestion doesn't make sense, just that there would be quite a bit of work. Shearonink (talk) 21:11, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I also agree with Lugnuts that it's good to have it the same as other lists. However at the moment the content of the article only lists cycling related deaths, so the article is like List of association footballers who died while playing, List of television actors who died during production, List of entertainers who died during a performance, List of inventors killed by their own inventions etc.. so I would say: List of cyclists who died during cycling. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 22:09, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I think WP needs to differentiate between professional and amateur, and that "professional" needs to be retained somewhere within the article title. I think that Lugnuts' general framework might work better with the present content, something like this:

• List of professional cyclists who died during their career

• Section: During a race
• Section: During training
• Section: Other reasons.

I would include the "Other reasons" section because, for instance, 1)when Jimmy Michael died - he was traveling from Europe to the US for a competition, it was a huge news story that was reported worldwide, and it almost certainly had its genesis in his horrific crash during a race at Friedenau. and 2)When Ottavio Bottecchia died, it remains unknown if that was during a training run or if he was killed by persons unknown. (And so on). I must say, that the sheer number of professional cyclists (who presumably know the hazards of cycling with other vehicles on the road better than almost any amateur) killed in collisions while out training or even during a race has always blown my mind. To keep things somewhat tidy, the article might need to be broken out into 2 separate articles with the "post-career" information being placed into a separate article. Shearonink (talk) 22:51, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't think professional is a good distinction. Many riders who are now in the list are not professional. Almost all track cyclists and pacemakers and many other road cyclists. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 06:08, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

The bone of contention seems to be the word "professional" in the current title. The article is now split into sections, which seem to address the issue, so removing the word professional from the title is the next step. I don't think we're going to cover every possible outcome of each death, but the vast majority seem to be people who sadly died during their career. For others, a footnote can be added. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 06:48, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it is "professional", but also about the words "during a race". So the options are:

• 1) Don't change anything (List of professional cyclists who died during a race)
• 2) Removing professional; also non-professional cyclists are listed (List of cyclists who died during a race)
• 3) Changing a race into cycling; due to the section Deaths of professionals during training or another reason related to cycling (List of professional cyclists who died during cycling)
• 4) Changing a race into their career - consistent with other lists (List of professional cyclists who died during their career)
• 5) Changing the word during because they didn't all die during cycling, some cases are related to cycling: (List of professional cyclists who had a cycling related death / List of professional cyclists with a cycling related death)

Combinations:

• 2&3) Reasons see above (List of cyclists who died during cycling)
• 2&4) Reasons see above (List of cyclists who died during their career)
• 2&5) Reasons see above (List of cyclists who had a cycling related death / List of cyclists with a cycling related death)

I would prefer at this point the option 2&3 or 2&5 - Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 11:07, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

• My preference would be to remove "during a race" and change it to "during their career" or "cycling related death" so if the only choices are those in Sander's immediate post above I prefer (2&5) List of cyclists with a cycling related death and possibly have different sections for "during a race", "during training" etc.
• I still think amateurs should be split off into their own article and the word "professional" should be retained in the title. The list is already quite long, splitting off amateurs would make it more readable but at this point I'm the only editor who seems to care about that distinction (or the probable length I am sure the List will soon achieve) so consensus etc..

Shearonink (talk) 16:24, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't agree with your last point. More than 50% of the article is about track cyclist and most of them are not professional as I mentioned before. I prefer one section about during a race, or three Sections: Prof road, non-prof road, track. Besides of that I don't think the list is too long. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 06:35, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Note I added an extra column with profession to solve this problem. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 07:44, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

But with the addition of the new "profession" column the lettering/font-size is now quite a bit smaller on the screen and very much harder to read... And the majority of track cyclists were not and are not professional?...

Re:the List being long - take a look at the stats :

• File size: 409 kB
• Prose size (including all HTML code): 1573 B
• References (including all HTML code): 177 B
• Wiki text: 93 kB
• Prose size (text only): 1034 B (166 words) "readable prose size"
• References (text only): 25 B

How long will it take to be read and how long will it take for people to scroll through from top to bottom? Keeping in mind WP:Accessibility & the fact that much of WP's content is being consumed on mobile devices or older computers with what could be considered out-dated browsers, etc.

And I wasn't just referring to the length of the List now, I was referring to its future growth.... With this change, every amateur cyclist in the world who dies while cycling & gets a newspaper or website-news mention will now probably be added to the List, breaking out the amateurs into their own List would proactively address any future issues with length. Going forward, editors will also have to prove/disprove with reliable sources a cyclist's amateur or pro status - keeping WP:NPOV/WP:IRS etc in mind we can't just rely on our own thoughts on the matter. Anyway, do whatever you think is best. I think I'm going to take this article off of my Watchlist and walk away from editing it for awhile or even commenting here since it seems to me that my various concerns are not being taken into account. Good luck. Shearonink (talk) 16:57, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

We are not against you, but I think you're already much more into it than we, and thinking already a step further. The length as it is now, there is no need for a move. But as you state it might be as the article will become longer. But if you want to spilt prof vs non-prof ot has to be clear who is a prof and who is not. As most if the track cyclist were amateurs it had to be clear who were prof and who not. But I don't know? Do you know? The column with profession can get this clear. I wrote in the columns amateur of the ones I know. Another solution for a split might be track cyclists vs. road cyclists. But this is another discussion. Let's change the title for the content as it is at the moment, and we can discuss later after the article is expanded.. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 14:43, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I see this has now been relisted. Are we any closer to coming to a new title? Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:44, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

The delineation of known professionals or known amateurs according to sourced information as of Sander's last edits is fine. I said my piece re. the title-change (of the choices presented above mine was for List of cyclists with a cycling related death with different sections for "during a race", "during training" etc.) From the posts here I am the only editor mentioning the probable/possible future issues re: length & notability etc of the List, and no one other than yourself & Sander have weighed-in on the RFC - seems like a done deal to me. (By the way, re track/road professional/amateur...I am not sure that going back into cycling's early days and classifying pioneering track cyclists as "amateurs" serves the subject well.) Good luck. Shearonink (talk) 21:04, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

@Lugnuts: AIt this time a majority is for List of cyclists with a cycling related death. Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 21:08, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

(@Shearonink:, you was just a bit faster :) Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 21:09, 7 April 2016 (UTC))

@Shearonink: (2), in the early years the amateur riders were important! And were called amateurs, as they didn't get paid. They had seperate events at world championships, see for instance 1978 UCI Track Cycling World Championships, and they competed at the Olympic Games (not the profs!) Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 21:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

"List of cyclists with a cycling related death" - I think that covers all bases and is the best least-worst choice. Unless anyone has any strong objections or something miles better to suggest, I'll go with that. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 07:31, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

• I agree that historically, and for many present-day riders who are paid less than a living wage, the designation "professional" is unhelpful and invites poor definition, but we need something to avoid addition of anyone who encounters tragedy on a shopping trip or in the course of trying to maintain fitness. I would certainly do away with the 'Profession' column: many riders take part in many disciplines, the profession of amateurs is entirely irrelevant, and a cycling team (which someone has taken to putting in this column) is not a profession. Kevin McE (talk) 16:55, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

However, until it is changed, those that are undoubtedly amateur, and by no means competing in professional or top level circles, should not be present. Campaign for change, then enact it, don't undermine the article's status in order to justify change. Kevin McE (talk) 17:03, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.