Talk:List of Delta Gamma chapters

Recent Delta Gamma Changes

I've copied below from AnnaEvaMary's page (as of about the same time as I've posted this) Naraht (talk) 12:24, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Start Copy

AnnaEvaMary, I've reverted the changes that you made to list of Delta Gamma. I don't see that the method of chapter description at https://members.deltagamma.org/DGMembers/Directories/CL.aspx matches your changes. It appears that on that website, the method is that the most recent use of the chapter letters has no suffix and that prior versions use (I) and then (II) and so on. (with the exception of Psi, where the first usage uses (Mother).) Is this a correct reading of the terminology?

Also, the term "Lists of chapters of United States student societies by society" for the category while not perfect covers groups that have chapters beyond the United States and Canada, such as a few in Israel or Nigeria (or some of the NPHCs that have alumni chapters spread across half the planet).

I'm happy for your edits, let's work toward getting it to a better place! Naraht (talk) 12:24, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Some names are actually incorrect on that search site and the chapter numbers (second, etc.) were not accurate. If we add the parentheses around the letters like I, II, III that is good, but I did not do that in the HTML as I was not sure if it would mess anything up! We do not use "second" or "prime" and everything I made is indeed accurate. :-)

For example, "Fulton Synodical" is actually "Female Synodical", as we found the original charter lists "Female Synodical."

The category explanation is helpful to know - could it be perhaps "North America and worldwide?"

Thank you for your message. Anything we can do to make our description accurate and can reflect our history correctly is great! AnnaEvaMary (talk) 16:47, 17 April 2023 (UTC)I'm copying this discussion over to the list article's Talk page, to be better seen by other users. End of copied section

AnnaEvaMary Personally, I'd be quite happy to use the 150th book as a reference. (Presuming access to the book is not *completely* limited to initiated members of Delta Gamma)

Technical issues like how to display (II) properly is something that we can definitely help with, I've been on wikipedia for more than 15 years and at worst, we know where to ask. :)

I think the use of Second and Prime is simply an effort to keep things clean and may be copied from Baird's Manual of American Fraternities, I'd like to see *something* that distinguishes Water Valley Seminary's chapter name from Cornell.

The link from the page (if I've got the correct one) is Synodical College in Fulton, Missouri which was founded in 1873. It appears that it went through a number of name changes. Is it that you think the name should be different or that the institution listed as Synodical College is a different school?

The problem with the categories is trying to split the ones that were founded in the United States, from those founded in the Philippines, to the non-greek letter ones in German speaking countries and Central Europe. I agree there is a small amount of inaccuracy. (The large majority of GLOs founded in the United States either have or are open to having chapters in Canada).Naraht (talk) 19:03, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Missing Schools

AnnaEvaMary, in your research, do you think you found enough information on Lewis School, Water Valley Seminary and Bolivar College to start pages about them? (It won't even be the first time this *year* that I've helped with creating a page about a closed school just because it had a chapter of a currently existing GLO. (I started Maryland Military and Naval Academy because I was tired of seeing the red link on the List of Kappa Sigma chapters page.Naraht (talk) 19:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

We could absolutely do a page on Lewis School, but there is literally no information anywhere about Water Valley whatsoever. Very sad. Bolivar may be similar - not enough information.

The 150th book is available only in hard copy - to anyone. It is not electronic. It is for sale via Hannah's Closet online.

Synodical: not trying to get the school name changed for the school, but for our chapter reference to match what is on the actual, physical charter that still exists. I think it is most accurate to say Female Synodical College (Fulton, MO) - at least for how we list the chapter.

The listing of second, prime, third, is not how we notate our chapters, even if Baird's states it that way. We use the Roman numerals in parentheses.

As many chapters rotated the use of the single letters as chapters tended to close after a short time in the early years, Water Valley used Chi, and there is conflicting info if the chapter was only there for one year or for three. Since Cornell took Chi when that chapter was founded, to distinguish, Water Valley became Chi (I). Same with how Upsilon, Delta, Pi, Phi, Theta were used more than once. The "newer" chapters took on the letter without a number, so we had Upsilon-Stanford, and have Pi-Montana, Phi-Colorado and Theta-Indiana now without any numeric reference.

(I do not know how to add the DG identification user box to my Wiki account!) AnnaEvaMary (talk) 19:38, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I figured you could do Lewis, as far as I know, the most notable thing about the Lewis School is the fact that Delta Gamma was founded there!

Too bad on Water Valley & Bolivar, may be worth doing Newspaper searches.

Sources do *not* have to exist online. I can't tell you how much of what I've added is from a 1976 copy of Baird's Manual of American College fraternities. :)

Changing the name on the list so that it matches what the sorority has in its list, but continuing to link to the page isn't a problem.[[name in article|name you want]]

So more or less what I said when I first contacted you. If Alpha had been used five times (not sure if any have), the chapters should be listed as Alpha (I), Alpha (II), Alpha (III), Alpha (IV) and Alpha (with the last, presumably which will not be reused) not having any roman letter designation. I'm good with that.

Yes, our responses are getting confused by section, but things are moving fast enough that it doesn't matter. :)

And I went ahead and added the Delta Gamma "I'm a member" infobox to your new userpage (which is different than your user talk page) Naraht (talk) 20:06, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Lewis School - I will put this on my list to do. We have lots of info and images - and yes, that is why it is notable - that Delta Gamma was founded there!

Many people have spent hours and hours on Water Valley with so many attempts. It is a sad statement that we have nothing, but we have a few more ideas in the works for discovery!

Thank you SO much for your help - I am brand new to Wiki, so I appreciate all your guidance! AnnaEvaMary (talk) 20:10, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Weirdly enough when google searched "water valley" and "delta gamma", one of the first hits was the copy of the *original* 1879 Baird's on Wikisource. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Baird%27s_Manual_of_American_College_Fraternities_(1879)/Delta_Gamma . It indicated that it was Peabody High School in Water Valley. I'm sure that's a piece of information that you have. And I'd like to say that it is probably less than 1 in a 1000 of the people who get onto wikipedia to add information about their group that is as knowledgeable and is willing to work under Wikipedia's rules the way that you are. Naraht (talk) 20:47, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I am all about getting history right! :-)

We absolutely have seen that one - but are not sure about the Peabody information, as many of the early Baird's were inaccurate based on our primary source research materials. It was only as good as the person telling the information had it. And that ... is how legends are born. AnnaEvaMary (talk) 20:52, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

And with the Anchora apparently starting in 1888 (after, it appears that all of Delta Gamma's active chapters were at 21st century 4-year school), I would imagine that even the earliest editions might not give much information on those locations. :(Naraht (talk) 14:56, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

We have had to go to primary sources, and while some information is in the early ANCHORAs, we don't have everything and need to verify a lot that is in the ANCHORAs, which is hard, too! All those early ones are pre-ANCHORA. AnnaEvaMary (talk) 18:32, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Chartering dates.

I've started with adding the chartering dates for Psi and Akron (easiest ones to find). Ideally we'd add all of them. The method that allows for proper sorting looks like {{dts|1873|12|25}}.Naraht (talk) 14:53, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I am happy to help with that - just need some time. Have it on my to-do list. AnnaEvaMary (talk) 18:28, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

School Names...

AnnaEvaMary One issue with School names (and it isn't just DG) is at what time point to do a name. If a chapter existed at a school from 1900-1930 and was again active from 1960-1990 and the school was ABC college when it was founded, changed to DEF college in 1920, GHI college in 1940, JKL college in 1980 and to JKL university in 2000... The issue here is how to have a standard that doesn't have Buchtel College for Eta chapter (which is what U of Akron was from DG's founding until 1913). Naraht (talk) 15:46, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

With our closed chapters, we use the name at the time of founding; if those chapters still existed, we would use the current name of the university/college. With chapters that are still in existence, we have changed the name to what the university/college goes by. For example, Buchtel>Akron. There are a number of these, you are correct! AnnaEvaMary (talk) 18:28, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Source for chartering dates at least for those chapters active in the 1950s

The Anchora for Winter 1955 appears to have been a *MAXIMUM* issue with a *LOT* of History and images as well as charter dates for the active chapters as well. (AnnaEvaMary , please inform if anything there has been overtaken by later research. (https://books.google.com/books?id=QZQE4Z4KDYsC) I don't know how many old Anchoras are scanned in.Naraht (talk) 15:59, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Many are on Google, but I will need to add them as I have the actual dates. Many things in past histories or compilations are incorrect. AnnaEvaMary (talk) 18:30, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I presume that Albion University falls into that category. The entry in the Anchora mentioned above says 1883 and that the exact date has been lost. I found a tweet from DG specifically saying March 9. I can stop adding if you'd prefer to start from your research.Naraht (talk) 19:06, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Before this goes too far down the rabbit whole, we cannot use Tweets, Facebook, or any other social media as a source in Wikipedia. However, the info you find there may lead you to a newspaper or magazine that has the needed content. In addition, @AnnaEvaMary's list of dates should only be inserted in this article if this is a published (print or online) source. Wikipedia does not allow original research (unpublished content). It is frustrating to know the info is incorrect in a print source, but that is what we must use until a better, reliable source can be found. (I suggest adding an efn to indicate that this date has been questioned by the group which says date xyz is correct). We are pretty flexible about primary sources in the fraternity WP such as using fraternity/sorority histories and magazines or college websites; yet these are not considered reliable sources by Wikipedia. However, personal knowledge is great if we have conflicting sources! Rublamb (talk) 01:54, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

RublambThere are more up to date sources (I found one that was created on the DG web page as of earlier this year) in documents that can be downloaded from the Delta Gamma website. (Though some I've found using Google, I'm still completely confused on how I would have found them walking through the web page. AnnaEvaMary's personal knowledge can't be used, but if published on the Delta Gamma website, it moves from Personal knowledge to Primary Sources, which is fine for an article like this.Naraht (talk) 12:54, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Prime/Second, etc.

For the current usage on the letters, I completely oppose the use of a suffix in the actual table. At most, place it in the efn. The chapter at Indiana University should be Theta, not Theta Second. I don't see any sign that Delta Gamma refers to the chapter at Indiana University in *any* way other than Theta.Naraht (talk) 19:02, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities#List of Delta Gamma Chapters. for response to you addition post on this matter. Thanks. Rublamb (talk) 02:00, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

What started this whole thread is that I made changes to the Wiki chart to remove "Prime," "First," "Second," etc.

If I may, I would like to make the changes to the list per how we officially and formally name our chapters, closed and open both.

Psi (I)-Lewis School

Chi (I)-Water Valley

etc.

Delta (I)-Trinity

Delta (II)-Hanover

etc. AnnaEvaMary (talk) 18:18, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I support it here and I'll put in a comment for over there as well.Naraht (talk) 18:56, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

If you checked my comment on the WP talk page, you now know that we use Prime/First, Second, etc. unless there is a source indicating that the fraternity/sorority uses another designation. I did not notice the varient designation on the sorority's website when I created this article and appreciate your calling attention to it. In this case there is a source which is already citied, so there is no problem with anyone making the changes. Since there seems to be confusion on this matter, I have gone ahead and made the changes. Hopefully, this closes this matter. Rublamb (talk) 18:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Additional Source...

Throw in "Panorama of a century" as a possible published source, both here and on the mainpage https://books.google.com/books?id=AojYxmrrQskC Naraht (talk) 13:26, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

I went through and added the dates it included. There was at least one year change from what was published in the Almanac. I went with Panorama. Rublamb (talk) 21:01, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Zeta Mu

According to AnnaEvaMary, Zeta Mu was never installed at Washington & Lee. (and the W&L newspaper agrees) The only case I can think of is Gamma Sigma Sigma where one of the founding locals had a chapter designation reserved for them. I think moving the school name to a note is fine. So something like "Zeta Mu - Reserved - N/A - N/A (note)" where note is something like "This chapter name was reserved for the effort at Washington and Lee, but the chapter was not installed."Naraht (talk) 18:35, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Did it every function as a colony? It seems unlikely that national would have reported it to Baird's or whatever source if it was never operational at some level. Your find of a newspaper article is key here! When I have run across historic colonies that were never installed for other groups, I have implemented our existing format for active colonies. Thus, the name would be "Zeta Mu colony" and its status would be "inactive" OR its name would be "Zeta Mu" and its status would be "Colony, Inactive". I prefer the former. The charter date would be left blank and the dates of operation (if known) could be placed in an efn. Some of these never-installed chapters only operated for a semester or part of an academic year before they fizzled. Rublamb (talk) 02:12, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh, it was *definitely* a colony. But (playing somewhat Devil's Advocate here), is there a reference other than the archive at U of Illinois that Zeta Mu as actually "assigned" for W&L.Naraht (talk) 12:49, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I see no point in second-guessing a reliable source unless there is another reliable source that contradicts it. In this case, you appear to have found an additional source that confirms a colony existed at W&L. Can you add the newspaper source either to the article or here? It would be helpful to see what you are refering to. Rublamb (talk) 17:55, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Up to date for chartering dates

https://www.deltagamma.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Collegiate-Chapters-Master-List-2023.pdf has dates for all of the chapters with *three* being "suspicious" charterings on January 1.

• Delta (I)-Trinity 1/1/1880
• Pi (I)-Fulton Synodical 1/1/1882
• Delta (III)-USC 1/1/1887

Also, there are a few first of the months early

• Upsilon (I)-Bolivar 10/1/1878
• Sigma-Northwestern 3/1/1882 . Not sure if that is a "we now it was month, but don't know the day" or not.

The next chartering date listed as the first of the month is Beta Theta-Durham 6/1/1939 , but according to the list we currently have up, that charter is at Duke and I believe that good enough records were kept by that point, that it really is the 1st.Naraht (talk) 00:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

However, it could be, given that https://books.google.com/books?id=vGpqjupYlLUC&pg=PA200 says June 2, 1939 (which day???)Naraht (talk) 00:21, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

That is correct - we probably do not have any records of exact dates for those chapters' founding dates, so they are listed as 1/1. I can get clarification at some point on these, but Beta Theta is June 1,1939. AnnaEvaMary (talk) 02:17, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

The ANCHORA is a secondary source for us in most cases. And there are errors in not only ANCHORAs, but also Panorama. This is a smh/sigh example. ! AnnaEvaMary (talk) 18:22, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

AnnaEvaMary An Anchora 6 years after the fact (Jan 1945) got it wrong. :headshake:...Naraht (talk)

Beta Theta - Durham or Duke?

I've been working my way through the Delta Gamma website and sometimes see Beta Theta listed as Duke and sometimes as Durham. Is this a case where the chapter was kicked off campus and took the name of the area like some chapters at Harvard???Naraht (talk) 00:15, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Note the Facebook group for this chapter https://www.facebook.com/groups/549493951802464/ doubles down on the confusion, it is entitled "Delta Gamma: Beta Theta-Duke || Beta Theta-Durham". I checked to see if the charter was originally at the currently closed Durham College but that didn't open until after the chapter was founded in 1939 and the women's co-ordinate college for Duke (which eventually merged into the school) was Trinity College.Naraht (talk) 00:18, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

The chapter is one of five NPC groups still at Duke, but since the university does not recognize the Panhellenic any more, the chapters all have had to take the name of Durham (the city in which Duke University is located), as they are now part of the "Durham Panhellenic." The Panhellenic voted in 2021 to separate from the university like the men's IFC groups did, hence they cannot use the university name now. The chapter was not kicked off campus, nor has it had its charter removed. The FB page acknowledges that it has been Beta Theta-Duke since 1939, and in 2022 is officially called Beta Theta-Durham, but alumnae don't care to refer to themselves that way, as they were initiated at Duke. AnnaEvaMary (talk) 02:00, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I remember followig the student-driven effort to ban fratnernities and sorories at Duke (somewhat local news for me). The stories of racism, hazing, and sexual abuse coming from students and former members were less than positive reflections of Greek life on this campus. It is unfornate that a few bad apples tainted the entire program. Clearly we should use the current chapter name and indicate the chartered name and other details in an efn.

FYI: The entire school was previosly called Trintiy College, an appropriately religious name for a Methodist College. The school began admitting women in 1897, five years after moving to Durham at the request of its benefactor who wanted to send his daughters to the school. Rublamb (talk) 02:38, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Correct. And that was James Buchanan Duke. AnnaEvaMary (talk) 02:39, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

In otherwords, my "like some chapters at Harvard" comment is more or less correct. And I get it for the Alumnae, it was forced and I'm sure if the Panhellenic and the University could reach an agreement, I'm sure that the descriptor change would be undone in a hot second. (at the level of "All those in fav..." *AYE*) Naraht (talk) 12:45, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes. Yes, it would. AnnaEvaMary (talk) 18:20, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Charter date of Lambda

On the last page of Panorama of a Century: 1847-1947, there is an explaination that this chapter did not receive its charter until December 18, 1883 although it has been in existance for at least 18 months prior. This source also indicates that the December 1883 date is what the fraternity historically used. Apparently, yearbooks have an earlier date for this chapter. Do we go with what the chapter told the college's yearbook or with the date used by the national fraternity? Rublamb (talk) 00:12, 23 April 2023 (UTC)