Talk:Lima/Archive 1

Page move discussion

(from Wikipedia:Requested moves)

Lima, Peru → Lima

Lima is a city of eight million, and every major city deserves to have an article that doesn't need further explanation of its name, even if there are other places that share the same name. Examples of this are: Saint Petersburg, London and York. The significance of the other places listed in the disambiguation page is much smaller than that of Lima, Peru. -- Tuomas 22:46, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Support - I'm suprised that it isn't at Lima already. Jooler
• Support, naturally. ADH (t&m) 00:18, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
• Support. De facto case for primary topic disambiguation. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 07:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Aye... I mean, "support". Rd232 13:14, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Support. -- Itai 14:04, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Support. G-Man 23:30, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Support' BanyanTree 00:05, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

100% consensus to move to Lima

-- Netoholic @ 18:54, 2005 Jan 14 (UTC)

Demographics ?

Several users have been replacing and removing the linked word Demographics in the box [1]. What purpose does it serve? -- Viajero 15:24, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, unfortunately there has been a revert war on this article page. The reason I keep removing "Demographics" is because not all the information on the table is demography-related (for example, the time zone or latitude & longitude), plus the original table, which is a wikipedia standard, didn't include this word on it; but User:HappyApple insists on putting that word. I'd like to know the opinion of the other editors. --Tuomas ^hello 17:49, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you. Our own article, Demographics, describes it as

selected characteristics of a population (age and income distribution and trends, mobility, educational attainment, home ownership and employment status, for instance).

Wordnet says:

a statistic characterizing human populations (or segments of human populations broken down by age or sex or income etc.)

-- Viajero 19:02, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I must say in references such as Britannica Encyclopedia refers as branch of statistics, however distribution and human populations are not the only terms that demographics describes, it also compromises geographical and geological terms which is the place in which the people (subject of study from statistics) live. There is standard to wikipedia city tables so it would be appropiate to dont disrupt this template.HappyApple 22:48, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

nickname vs motto

A nickname is a short, informal name, like the hub (Boston) or the big apple (NY). "La ciudad de los reyes" does not fall into this category. It may be a motto, depending on whether it is used officially, although mottos usually have an exhortive character. -- Viajero 16:05, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

By historically terms is accurate to say motto instead nickname, many historians have made an accord by research, during the early years of spanish colonial regime in the 16th century , authorities, nobility , dwellers, peasants and slaves used the name City of Kings instead Lima (name which has been refered from an amerindian flower), it appeared on official maps by cartographers at that time as well. Used as motto from the time of Charles I of Spain and his court to nobility in many spanish american colonies. Historians like Pablo Macera believe the name Lima was tend to be accepted as name after Napolean's brother took over Spain in the beginning of 19th century and the dawn of independence as matter of nationalism and its further ideals.HappyApple 22:36, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have liven in Lima for many years and in fact was born and raised there and it is very obvious that the term "The City of Kings" is widely accepted as the city's nickname. User:jose61493 22:21, 17 Dec 2005 (UTC)

message to HappyApple

1. demographics. Sorry, you are wrong. Also, I don't see this term used in a similar way for other cities. To which "standard" are you referring?
2. motto. Based on what you write above, this is phrase is not a motto. Please consult an dictionary about the current usage of the meaning; it is more or less equivalent to slogan.
3. metro. We don't need to state mass-transit because by defition a metro is mass-transit; the term is redundant here. Also, most metros consist of more than just rails; I assume the Lima one does as well.

Look, we are spending far too much time and energy on insignificant details. There are many topics on Peru which urgently need work; there is lots to do. It is wonderful that there are Peruvians like you now contributing to these pages. However, you must keep in mind that this is a collaborative effort and that we all contribute different things. If you are unable to accept native speakers of English correcting your texts, then you won't last very long here. I have reverted your most recent changes; let's move onto other matters now please. -- Viajero 10:19, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is just a discussion, to ensure which term should be most accurate on Lima article. I have already consulted with Britannica Encyclopedia however i will check on other reference such as Merriam Webster. The standard which i was refering it is on wikipedia template for city information, the word demographics is not in there so i stopped modifying it. However I insist based on historian's opinion its more accurate to call it motto, however slogan it is good choice too.

• I think so you are right in some way, metro by definition is a mass transit indeed, but not all people know that, however your terms are acceptable and i consider end to this topic.
  1. The agreement signed between our mayor and the president according said to press said, it will allow the finance for pending rails tracks left unfinished from the 80's and it doesn't seem mention of financing new wagons or multiple units, i think it would be appropiate to specify on article and preventing further missunderstanding.
• I agree with you as a collaborative effort, but i think an accurate information should be written. There are other matters of interest related to Peru articles such as political and historical figures for example which i am doing research to write those articles.And i remind you on every topic on encyclopedia like in science and culture, even insignificant details like you said have very deeply impact on readers. Be humble.HappyApple 14:33, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Historical Names accuracy

• Doing a research about history of university in which i am currently studying, National University of Saint Mark was called this way in honor of Saint Mark one of apostles in a vote, papal bull of Pope Pius V confirmed the name. His representation in middle ages (Saint Mark) was a lion because of its courage, and you can see this in the university coat of arms. I consider accurate call it National University of Saint Mark instead San Marcos because
  • We are on english wikipedia and it must be appropiate to use an english name to refer this university.
  • Historical names can be translated.
  • The spanish name of the saint has an english translation, and it is not altering the official name in any way, and a prove of this and i quote University of Saint Mark The highest institution of learning in Peru, located at Lima ....

[[2]] used on Catholic Encyclopedia. Finally i have not changed the article of name on San Marcos to Saint Mark, i used piped link, which wikipedia recommends. Please User:Viajero dont destroy my contributions.HappyApple 03:21, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

---

HappyApple:

A Google search on the phrase "National University of Saint Mark" [3] reveals nine hits, all of them Wikipedia texts. IOW, they are all yours. A Google search on the phrase "National University of San Marcos" [ [4] returns nearly 1,000. A single article in the Catholic encyclopedia does not support this Anglicized usage. In English, this institution is most commonly known as the "National University of San Marcos" and that is how we should refer to it, in accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions, which states:

Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize

If you still doubt me, place an inquiry about this on the Village Pump and you will see that every other editor on Wikipedia will suport me on this. If you continue to impose your own naming conventions in Wikipedia, you are in violation of our communal decision-making process and you may be sanctioned. -- Viajero 16:18, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

---

Viajero:
The issue about the historical name accuracy of Saint Mark instead San Marcos was already discussed with another wikipedian User:StarbucksFreak and we got a consensus, we agreed to use Saint Mark instead San Marcos, as we are on english wikipedia, and the official name of the university has not been altered in any way.

• I dont think so i am violating any communal decision or trying to impose something, and i quote from the Wikipedia:Naming conventions this : It is important to note that these are conventions, not rules written in stone....and there may be cases where a particular convention is "obviously" inappropriate.
• Also i support my defense with this article in which support this anglicized usage too,and i quote ...were decreed in 1551.8 In some instances, such as that of the University of Saint Mark in Lima, the university has kept its colonial library

[[5]].

• Google is not the one and only viable source to have information about this university on english language they exists other searches such as Altavista and Yahoo.
• I also want to say this issue was already solved and you were not part of this discussion when it began or even when the consensus was agreed. I dont think so you can impose your thinking on wikipedia.
• I want to remind you again Historical names can be translated in many languages english among them, and this is the case of San Marcos from spanish to Saint Mark on english.
• And, as wikipedia say in Naming Conventions this Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize i am pretty sure english speakers would find easier to understand Saint Mark then San Marcos.

Finally i would please ask to your conscience, be reasonable, i dont have the interest to modify the article name to National University of San Marcos to move to National University of Saint Mark, i am using a piped link as wikipedia recomends, i am following all the rules.HappyApple 02:49, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wait - I never agreed with you on that. I just decided to leave it there, since you're a student of that university. --Tuomas ^hello 03:05, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

As you did not clarified your possition until today and as you decided to leave it there, it can be interpretated as consensus. However viajero was not involved in this issue, his editions are in some way not accurate and he did not discussed about his editions in the discussion from article.HappyApple 03:30, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

---

Clarifying information:

• The issue about the historical name accuracy about Saint Mark or San Marcos was already in discussion with another user User:StarbucksFreak, who is from Peru too, however a final accord was not made, he let it there.
• The name has not altered, Saint Mark is the english name of the saint , who has been choosen in the 16th century as the name of university, confirmed, by papal bull of Pope Pius V.
• User:Viajero was not involved in this issue on the beginning.
• Arguments he use to defend his own think are based on this and i quote, A Google search on the phrase "National University of San Marcos" returns nearly 1,000. A single article in the Catholic encyclopedia [[6]] does not support this Anglicized usage.
• However Google is not the one and only viable source to have information on the internet, there are other references to search on the internet such as Yahoo and among others.The use of University of Saint Mark is used also in other reference about Historical libraries.[[7]]
• This is not the only discussion he has, a previous discussion about motto instead nickname or also called, he used this argument to defend his position, Look, we are spending far too much time and energy on insignificant details.
• If you are unable to accept native speakers of English correcting your texts, then you won't last very long here. I have reverted your most recent changes; let's move onto other matters now please.
  • How did you interpretate this, as an attack?.
    • I dont want to believe he is in some kind of discrimination with me because he is an american and should be known more english then me.
• The naming policy said this in the beginning of the article and i quote:

It is important to note that these are conventions, not rules written in stone....and there may be cases where a particular convention is "obviously" inappropriate.

• Finally, however i have right arguments to defend my position, it seems user viajero is unable to accept my contributions, he thinks his own vision should be on peruvian related articles. And this is the same not only with this, is also about the Lima's metro and Lima's motto.HappyApple 17:20, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sanity and San Marcos

I have only ever (in English) seen the name given as "National University of San Marcos" or (my personal pref.) "San Marcos National University". What has happened is that with 5 centuries of history in there, the San Marcos flag has been disassociated from the evangelist to become an inextricable part of the university's name. That's how the names of universities work in translation: take at look at the es:Universidad de Cambridge article on w:es -- for example, "Michaelhouse ... se unió a King's Hall para crear Trinity". Putting a line in the intro saying that it's named after St Mark is a great idea, but the name of the university in English is San Marcos. –Hajor 17:39, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. By the way, let us change the name of the "National University of San Marcos" article to "San Marcos National University" - how do you do that without creating broken links? Is there a better way than just redirecting? Hasdrubal 18:56, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Small modifications

Following changes made on Lima city article.

• Stated Saint Mark in parenthesis :
  • Due to it's still on discussion i propose as neutrality of this issue to have the anglizice name in parenthesis.
• Added City of Lima in the main city data chart.
  • User:StarbucksFreak used the name City of Lima in it's article, List of universities in Peru.
• Added information about Saint Mark still on operation as same being considered the most presitigious center of higher learning in Lima and Peru.
  • It is well known by peruvians as same by worldwide community Saint Mark's fame is known everywhere.For over four centuries, tradition and international recognition was gained.
• Removed image of Miraflores financial district image.
  • Fixed temporal typo.
• Added photography from Museum vases in Lima City Walls park, to culture section.

Still need

• Museums in Lima
• Soon replacement to Miraflores financial district photograph.

I hope usefull contributions like from User:StarbucksFreak can improve this article a little bit, keep going. HappyApple 03:12, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Talk Point

• Universities accuracy
  • In the paragraph regarding to universities, National University of San Marcos (Saint Mark) deserves to be highlighted as center of higher education. If the paragraph doesn't follow appropiate grammar, any changes in this subject are welcome.HappyApple 02:32, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I believe the statement about San Marcos being the most prestigious university is not NPOV, as HappyApple is a student of this institution. The Catolica and Cayetano Heredia universities have gained a lot of prestige in the last decades and should be considered to be of the same level as San Marcos. I see HappyApple has reverted these changes for the second time. Maybe we should vote on this? --Tuomas ^hello 06:19, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

See my current edit. I would agree, myself, that only the Catolica is at the same level as a general institution, but specialized schools such as the UNI, Cayetano Heredia and perhaps the Agraria are very good at what they do. Hasdrubal 18:58, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

My changes

Infobox: I'm not that familiar with infoboxes on city pages but I was trying to fix the page so that everything fit. [8], so that Removal of picture:The pic I removed was excess. I couldn't get all of the pics to fit in the history section and then after checking other city articles I realized most don't even have one pic. So I simply linked the page to the article itself which contains the pic. I kept the other pics because they ended fitting. Also, I felt the others were of more importance than the one I removed. Falphin 17:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• The other change I forgot about was that I moved the Demographics and one other section below the history simply because the pics seemed to work better. Different city articles tend to have them in different orders. Ex:New York City, Evansville. Falphin 17:28, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Table of Contents

The only complaint I still have is that the Table of Contents is not on the Left side. A bit of a nitpick but I believe it should be kept in mind when the article is finished expanding. Falphin 22:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I fixed this by moving the image of the government house down. I also removed the sunset photo; it is essentially generic and could be anywhere; this article was getting too image-heavy and it was disrupting the layout. -- Viajero | Talk 10:51, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Chaclacayo

Sorry, feel free to remove these comments and/or reformat them, am not familiar with wikipedia at all. While looking at the Districts_of_Lima article, I noticed that some information is obviously wrong. Namely, the Chaclacayo district is a problem. if you look at the spanish & english versions for Chaclacayo, you will see that the map mentions that district at a different location within Lima. I remember seeing a map on the net that shows it at the location of the spanish map. But I really don't know.

Fixed. --StarbucksFreak 18:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Tren Urbano

It is important to be noted that the Tren Urbano does not only serve the purpose of linking the financial districts but also has seven more lines planned that will run around the whole city. Also important is the reason of the system not being subterranean because of strong seismic activity and important touristical and cultural locations being underground such as the Catacombs and St. Francis' Monestary.

I removed

The following text inserted by anon. It shows a clear POV and may be factually incorrect. If it can be verified and wikified please readd this information. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 01:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Text

Lima has brilliant sunshine from December to May, when humidity goes up to 70 percent. The year-round temperature is characterized by a spring-like mildness. From June to November the weather becomes cloudy and humidity reaches 90 percent. The sun, however, is always shining in Chosica - 15 miles to the east and 2600 feet above sea level.

Fall: Temperature approx. 15C. Begins in May. Winter: Temperature approx. 13C. Begins in June. Spring: Temperature approx. 17C. Begins in late September. Summer: Temperature approx. 24C. Begins in December.

Lima is the largest city in the Western Hemisphere, and the second largest in the world after Cairo, that is located in a desert.

Lima province vs city vs metropolitana region

The population figure for Lima seems inflated. Is there a primary reference (i.e. direct link to a census office page) for the current figure? Also, it is unclear as to exactly what definition of Lima is being referred to here. The article seems to be about Lima province but only 30 out of the 43 districts? How is that different from the Lima province article? I will try and look for the primary sources and change the figures later unless someone does it first. Polaron 01:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Lima the city/capital is inside Lima Province. Merging them would be the equivolent of merging New York City into the New York State article.--Jersey Devil 03:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

But don't they have the same government? Is there a separate provincial government from the city government? This is more like Washington, DC merging with the District of Columbia rather than your New York example, I think. There are no statistics for a "Lima City" in INEI. There is the province and then the Cercado district, but nothing in between. Polaron 03:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

IMO merging would not help the reader, but rather confuse some. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 07:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Would it not help the reader if they learn that the city and the province are the same? What are we going to include in the province article that is not in the city article? The government does not have separate statistics for "Lima City". Polaron 12:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The reason the government doesn't have such stats is because Lima is not formally a city, but a conurbation of thirty districts. That's why when I created the Lima Province article I clearly stated that the 13 other districts do NOT belong to Lima. The Lima Province, thus, is definately not the same thing as the city. No Lima resident would ever tell you that a resident of Santa María del Mar lives in what is coloquially known as the city of Lima. Therefore I do not support the merger. --StarbucksFreak 00:17, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

So there is a separate city/municipal government from the provincial government? If the city government has no jurisdiction over the 13 outer districts then I agree with having separate articles. But if the government of "city" and province are the same, then they should be merged. So what is the government structure of Lima? Polaron 02:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, if there will be separate articles, statistics for population, area, etc. should be changed for the city article. Polaron 02:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the Municipalidad Metropolitana de Lima has jurisdiction over the whole Lima Province. Still, it would be a mistake to merge the pages, ie imply that districts like Pucusana or Santa María del Mar belong to the city of Lima. I guess you'd have to live in Lima to understand it. --StarbucksFreak 05:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I modified the Lima article to reflect the fact that the city is defined as the central 30 districts only and not the entire province. I also changed the population and area stats as appropriate. I also removed the merge tag as it seems clear that most people do not want to merge. Polaron 19:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

What is a Notable person born in Lima?

Hi there, I deleted Jaime Bayly from the section Notable people born in Lima. According to the dictionary notable means:

notable adj important, interesting, excellent, or unusual and therefore deserving to be noticed or mentioned.

From all the other people mentioned under the Writers subsection, Jaime Bayly doesn't fulfill the requirements stated above to be regarded as notable. He has only writen a couple of books, and had some TV-programs. --Carlosp420 03:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

And who are you to judge whether he qualifies as "interesting" or not? I think the fact that he has his own TV program shows that at least some people consider him to be "interesting". --StarbucksFreak 00:11, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Granted, he is as "interesting" as Bryce Echenique, Ricardo Palma, Ribeyro or the other writers he shares the category with. I don't think so. --Carlosp420 01:23, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

why is there a gigantic picture that takes up the whole frame in the middle of the page???

Removed subtitle "Unseen history"

It doesn't give any clue about why that information is relevant to the article, and why it must be immediately after the History subtitle. Please Ermeyers provide a consistent piece of information, and sustain why it must be in the place you chose. --Ausum 01:16, August 29th 2006 (GMT-5)

History and then Unseen history for a daytime solar event that couldn't possibly have been seen without scientific methods, or methods that look to the past's unseen events of history. Did you even try to understand what I did, in good faith, before you simply deleted it? Zenith simply indicates that the celestial event occurred directly over Lima, Peru. This Asterism event related to Astronomy, Astrology and Christianity occurred at a Zenith directly over Lima, Peru, famously named the City of Kings at 16:00:00 Lima local time, which directly corresponds to Midnight in Jerusalem, Israel. This event is a discovery that is a scientifically verifiable (WP:VERIFY) date, time and location, so it doesn't really qualify as some primary research (WP:NOR). This event is simply presented neutrally (WP:NPOV) as an event that occurred at a specific date, time and primary location to lead people to investigate the unique solar system event for themselves, using the sources cited (WP:CITE). I simply did my very best to closely adhere to the Wikipedia Five Pillars (WP:5P). Please put it back in and improve upon it if you can, but please don't kill good information for others more interested than yourself. --Eric R. Meyers (Ermeyers) (talk) 16:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

No definite limit

There is in fact a definite limit to the city which is the Municipalidad Metropolitana de Lima (Metropolitan Municipality of Lima) This is the official limit however most residents only include 30 of the 43 districts actually part of the city of Lima. Vivaperucarajo 04:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Lima/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Missing a culture section, sights are just a list, economy almost non-existent, otherwise OK?

Last edited at 04:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 15:15, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Lead section too long?

Is it OK if I remove the section on the Japanese embassy hostage crisis? That should serve to shorten it a little. Any objections? --Rcgy 20:12, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree.-- Walter Humala - Emperor of West Wikipedia| wanna Talk? 21:18, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree... It doesn't add significant length and enhances the content of the article. Optionally, it could be merged into a future "history" section? Suntzu3500 05:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's move the article

as done with "Paris" to "Paris, France", lets move "Lima" to "Lima, Peru". -- Walter Humala - Emperor of West Wikipediawanna Talk? 04:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

My mistake, there was no paris article moving. -- Walter Humala - Emperor of West Wikipediawanna Talk? 04:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Automated Request Move

The request is based on the principal that the common denominator, per the new category UTC-5 demonstrates that cities generally have the state or province name. Take for example Ottawa which should redirect to Ottawa, Ontario and not vis-versa. This will help when categorizing cities. --CyclePat 00:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC) p.s.: I couldn't help but notice that this request has already been done. Should it be moved to Lima, Lima?

No. Lima the city is administratively the same as Lima the province and is independent (not part of) of Lima the department. --Polaron | Talk 01:31, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you may be able to also help out with these other city which I believe are from South America. Request moves. Thank you. --CyclePat 03:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Since Lima is a Capital City it doesn't need a comma and its state or country (like Los Angeles, California). So please don't move this.-- Walter Humala Godsave him! ^{(wanna Talk?)} 04:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Expanding

I've been editing this for many months, and I can't notice order nor manual of style here. So I started to order sections as in the Los Angeles, California article. That won't be easy, many subtopics are missing so please give me a hand. Thanks. -- Walter Humala Godsave him! ^{(wanna Talk?)} 04:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Some shocking pictures I've found

Hi, I don't think that picture of a slum is good for Lima; of course, there are slums in every big city around the world, but instead of uploading those pictures, some others should be published, the historical center, the beaches, the museums, the churches of Lima. There's no doubt someone with a false sense of reality and a very low self-esteem is managing these pictures, just a comment dude... peace!

hi, I've found these pictures (from commons) of shanty towns in Lima, i don't know wheter it would be fine to add.--Andersmusician 02:49, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

• 
  New provisorical livings ascending the hill
• 
  Houses made of simple materials
• 
  Districts are formed just outside the town
• 
  Now equipped with electric light and bus
• 
  More permanent residence are formed
• 
  Political messages on the walls

--Andersmusician 02:49, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Why not? --Victor12 03:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Who or what is Pompeyo? (written on the walls)? AirOdyssey (Talk) 16:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Who knows, but it might be bad propagando to post these pictures, maybe. --201.230.6.137 19:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The left-most house with "Pompeyo" written on it looks like it also has "FIM" written on its side. FIM would be the Independent Moralizing Front. Perhaps Pompeyo was a candidate on their list. --Descendall (talk) 08:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry if I have frightened or offended someone in any way, it was not my intention. But to describe the poor living situations you have to put some pictures too. The pictures however are 10 and almost 30 years old (and not technically good). It can maybe also be dificult to get some pictures, as this is no "tourist-district" and you are recommended not to show any camera (in fact not to show anything). I guess the places do not look the same today. If you visit the same areas during diferent times you will be aware of a great activity, that in around 20 years in many cases will form a decent way of living, all depending the circumstances of course. But the first steps will be really harsh, lacking water, energy and anything. All is expansion in an uncontrollably way, for some years around 500-600 persons coming each day to Lima. (Pompeyo must by/must have been a local candidate for mayor or something like that, I do not recall, I just did choose a picture with no name of any political party on) Xauxa 07:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Although this is not a forum: "this is gonna happen always here" --Andersmusician VOTE 01:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

While clearly such pictures would add rich context to an understanding of the situation in Lima, I have an objection to including photos of shanty towns. For the period of I think a couple of days, the article on Lima was filled with photos that highlighted the modern parts of the city (I don't know whose they were), but they were removed. If you look at the article on Los Angeles (another city I have called home), there are only images of L.A.s grandeur, one is left to read (not see) and even then just partially, about problems like Skid Row, graffitti on every major freeway, run down neighborhoods in Compton, Inglewood, South Central, East L.A. etc. etc. Why is it that in the name of "objectivity" it is always Latin American, African, and Asian cities whose impoverished sectors must be shown, but hardly ever those of North American or European cities?

There are a great many people who use wikipedia to "visit" places they don't know about, and I guarantee you that the old adage is true, a picture truly is worth a thousand words. So we are inviting people to confirm biases that there is nothing, or hardly anything, of value in Latin American cities if we populate the article withe excessive images of urban decay and poverty. This is just anecdotal, so I am not saying the whole world works like this, but I have run into many people who think Lima is all shanty towns, and people who think that Lima lacks a financial center (i.e. it is solely an historical city, full of colonial architecture). Let's not allow them to see "evidence" that this is "true" in this article. Just a thought. Rafajs77 (talk) 20:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it doesn't make sense to post picture which are 10, 20 or 30 years old. Lima is diferent from twenty years ago.

If someone search for Lima, they want to see how it is right now. Probably a little of history and some tourism information. --Chalaco01 (talk) 17:43, June 29 2008 (UTC)

There are a few recent pictures on www.peraleswaterproject.org that represent the not so modern areas of Lima. If someone wants to incorporate them, I believe I could get the necessary permission. FYI, Perales is a suburb of Lima. Hjg001 (talk) 20:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

MAS ARTICULOS Y FOTOS

BUENO CREO DE QUIEN ESTE AL ALCANCE DE PODER AGRANDAR Y EXPANDIR ESTE ARTICULO ASI MISMO COLOCARLE MAS FOTOS QUE LO HAGA PORFAVOR YA QUE OTROS ARTICULOS DE OTRAS CAPITALES TIENE MAS INFORMACION=! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.42.64.58 (talk • contribs).

jeje eso es facil de decir pero no de hacer --Andersmusician $ 02:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Please try to use English on English Wikipedia talk pages, in accordance with Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines

Hpdl

Translation

More articles and pics

WELL I BELIEVE SOMEONE SHOULD EXPAND THIS ARTICLE AND UPLOAD MORE PICTURES, SINCE ARTICLES FOR OTHER CAPITAL CITIES HAVE MORE INFORMATION!

haha that's easier said than done —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hpdl (talk • contribs) 16:19, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

History section

Hi, I've noticed there's no history section where I was plannig to add some historical maps. I'll try to make an effort on starting it --Andersmusician $ 02:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Climate Chart

Hi, I've uploaded u new version of a climate chart for Lima as a vector graphics image. Data is from climate-charts will this one be an improvement on the current one with the german text? AgainErick 23:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Looks much better and definately an improvement. I'm not sure about the background color, though. Something whiter might look better. Your chart features the average precipiation... could it also include the average temperature? It's nice that it includes the Köppen climate category for Lima. --Victor12 02:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice AgainErick but I just think the background would be better in white color, and the whole picture height reduced.--Andersmusician VOTE 04:59, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

On a second look, 7 mm is not the average precipitation. Maybe it should be 0.7 mm? --Victor12 12:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

New version uploaded. Reduced height and added averages. ErickAgain 22:39, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I would yet prefer its width to be increased, and the bar colors to a brighter non-blue color & still changing picture's frame color to gray. Hope you fill my request, thanks--Andersmusician VOTE 22:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

This is it for today.ErickAgain 23:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC) Same player shoots again.

Seems very good to me. Do we have a consensus for its use? Anders? --Victor12 02:48, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Speaking about climate many "city" articles have templates to show the average high/low temperatures and rainfall year round on a monthly basis. I've added this template from the New York City article's climate section as an example.--Jersey Devil 05:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Climate data for New York (Belvedere Castle, Central Park), 1991–2020 normals, extremes 1869–present
Month	Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec	Year
Record high °F (°C)	72 (22)	78 (26)	86 (30)	96 (36)	99 (37)	101 (38)	106 (41)	104 (40)	102 (39)	94 (34)	84 (29)	75 (24)	106 (41)
Mean maximum °F (°C)	60.4 (15.8)	60.7 (15.9)	70.3 (21.3)	82.9 (28.3)	88.5 (31.4)	92.1 (33.4)	95.7 (35.4)	93.4 (34.1)	89.0 (31.7)	79.7 (26.5)	70.7 (21.5)	62.9 (17.2)	97.0 (36.1)
Mean daily maximum °F (°C)	39.5 (4.2)	42.2 (5.7)	49.9 (9.9)	61.8 (16.6)	71.4 (21.9)	79.7 (26.5)	84.9 (29.4)	83.3 (28.5)	76.2 (24.6)	64.5 (18.1)	54.0 (12.2)	44.3 (6.8)	62.6 (17.0)
Daily mean °F (°C)	33.7 (0.9)	35.9 (2.2)	42.8 (6.0)	53.7 (12.1)	63.2 (17.3)	72.0 (22.2)	77.5 (25.3)	76.1 (24.5)	69.2 (20.7)	57.9 (14.4)	48.0 (8.9)	39.1 (3.9)	55.8 (13.2)
Mean daily minimum °F (°C)	27.9 (−2.3)	29.5 (−1.4)	35.8 (2.1)	45.5 (7.5)	55.0 (12.8)	64.4 (18.0)	70.1 (21.2)	68.9 (20.5)	62.3 (16.8)	51.4 (10.8)	42.0 (5.6)	33.8 (1.0)	48.9 (9.4)
Mean minimum °F (°C)	9.8 (−12.3)	12.7 (−10.7)	19.7 (−6.8)	32.8 (0.4)	43.9 (6.6)	52.7 (11.5)	61.8 (16.6)	60.3 (15.7)	50.2 (10.1)	38.4 (3.6)	27.7 (−2.4)	18.0 (−7.8)	7.7 (−13.5)
Record low °F (°C)	−6 (−21)	−15 (−26)	3 (−16)	12 (−11)	32 (0)	44 (7)	52 (11)	50 (10)	39 (4)	28 (−2)	5 (−15)	−13 (−25)	−15 (−26)
Average precipitation inches (mm)	3.64 (92)	3.19 (81)	4.29 (109)	4.09 (104)	3.96 (101)	4.54 (115)	4.60 (117)	4.56 (116)	4.31 (109)	4.38 (111)	3.58 (91)	4.38 (111)	49.52 (1,258)
Average snowfall inches (cm)	8.8 (22)	10.1 (26)	5.0 (13)	0.4 (1.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.1 (0.25)	0.5 (1.3)	4.9 (12)	29.8 (76)
Average precipitation days (≥ 0.01 in)	10.8	10.0	11.1	11.4	11.5	11.2	10.5	10.0	8.8	9.5	9.2	11.4	125.4
Average snowy days (≥ 0.1 in)	3.7	3.2	2.0	0.2	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.2	2.1	11.4
Average relative humidity (%)	61.5	60.2	58.5	55.3	62.7	65.2	64.2	66.0	67.8	65.6	64.6	64.1	63.0
Average dew point °F (°C)	18.0 (−7.8)	19.0 (−7.2)	25.9 (−3.4)	34.0 (1.1)	47.3 (8.5)	57.4 (14.1)	61.9 (16.6)	62.1 (16.7)	55.6 (13.1)	44.1 (6.7)	34.0 (1.1)	24.6 (−4.1)	40.3 (4.6)
Mean monthly sunshine hours	162.7	163.1	212.5	225.6	256.6	257.3	268.2	268.2	219.3	211.2	151.0	139.0	2,534.7
Percent possible sunshine	54	55	57	57	57	57	59	63	59	61	51	48	57
Average ultraviolet index	2	3	4	6	7	8	8	8	6	4	2	1	5
Source 1: NOAA (relative humidity and sun 1961–1990; dew point 1965–1984)
Source 2: Weather Atlas.

Sea temperature data for New York

Month	Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec	Year
Average sea temperature °F (°C)	41.7 (5.4)	39.7 (4.3)	40.2 (4.5)	45.1 (7.3)	52.5 (11.4)	64.5 (18.1)	72.1 (22.3)	74.1 (23.4)	70.1 (21.2)	63.0 (17.2)	54.3 (12.4)	47.2 (8.4)	55.4 (13.0)

Image for deletion

File:1316535-1.jpg

anybody looking for take this pic again?

Just to let you know Image:1316535-1.jpg has been nominated for deletion at commons.--Andersmusician VOTE 02:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Can someone 'retake' this picture? is taken from a building or maybe from an airplane? Which picture shall we use as main skyline image in the infobox. ErickAgain 22:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I suggest we remove the satellite image also. It's credits say it's a NASA picture but i'm sure it's been edited to include the text "Lima Golf Club". No need to include that on the image. It's not a picture of the center of town either. What's the relevance to include Lima Golf Club in the Lima article (twice) anyway?--ErickAgain 22:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, seems like undue weight. --Victor12 23:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Maps in the infobox

Location of Lima within South America

File:Location of Lima in Peru variant 1.svg

Location of Lima with Peru

I don't think we should have two maps on the infobox. As far as I know every city article has just one map of the city itself and its inmediate surroundings, not of the whole country. What does everybody else thinks? --Victor12 21:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, just one locator map of lima within its surroundings. Btw, this will not be the current map, because this one shows Lima Province and Callao within Lima Region. Both Lima prov. and Callao region are not part of Lima reg.--ErickAgain 22:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you came out with this because of matters of space, I propose to create a map showing both scales (country & regional). Example image:Map_of_Florida_highlighting_Miami.png --Andersmusician VOTE 17:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that, as Eric pointed out, Lima is not part of the Lima Region. A map of the province of Lima would be enough, I think. --Victor12 18:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

You're right on that, although I think some map like this one of Miami shows some spatial reference for people who don't know where Lima met area is.--Andersmusician VOTE 00:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, we can use the lower left pacific part of a lima province map for showing a small detail map of peru showing the location of Lima within Peru.--ErickAgain 13:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Based on the locator map on the Peru article this is a first attempt for a similar one for Lima.--ErickAgain 22:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice, however I think it would be better to reduce border thickness & reduce circle's size --Andersmusician VOTE 02:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Next try: SouthAm mini-locator map among other changes--ErickAgain 20:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Looks great, though I'm not sure if we should use a map of South America instead of a map of Peru. --Victor12 20:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Choice of two, changed mini locator map to peru map.--ErickAgain 20:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I like the second one better. It seems more appropiate to locate the city within the country rather than the whole region. The locator box within Peru looks quite accurate. Great job! Let's see now what other people think --Victor12 20:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this is excellent, maybe one little more addition: adding a coastal border of the mini Peru.--Andersmusician VOTE 16:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

As in "adding the Pacific Ocean" or as in "adding maritime borders with neighboring countries"? --Victor12 16:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

oops, the second one, adding maritime borders of Chile & Ecuador--Andersmusician VOTE 17:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

That might be somewhat contentious, check Chilean-Peruvian Maritime Dispute of 2006--2007. --Victor12 18:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I would've never meant to have maritime borders, instead just the coast of neighbooring countries, so basic spatial reference remains --Andersmusician VOTE 00:12, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Lima Metropolitan Area

Another article on Lima Lima Metropolitan Area, should these be merged?--ErickAgain 00:06, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I personally think not, most large cities' articles have another one on its met. area, since it incorporated other locations which formally don't include the city jurisdiction. However this may be tricky since there are not much legatlities here I think --Andersmusician VOTE 00:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Slums picture

I don't really think it should be there. Most city-articles don't have pictures of their bad areas. I think there was a similar problem with the article on Santiago (Chile) and their slum picture was removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.230.242.19 (talk • contribs) 03:50, July 21, 2007 (UTC).

I removed the pic, if you feel to discuss post here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.230.242.19 (talk • contribs) 00:26, July 29, 2007 (UTC).

Actually, the discussion at Talk:Santiago, Chile#Picture of poor Neighborhood failed to reach any consensus. It seems the pic was removed by an IP acting on his own. As for this article, I think the slums pic is important as it shows a relevant part of Lima and its history. Also, the article deals with slums or pueblos jóvenes in several sections: History, Demographics and Districts. Thus, being an important matter, I fail to see why such a pic should be removed. --Victor12 18:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Sulms might not have been notable in Santiago's article but are extremely important in this one, these concentrate more than half Lima's population --Andersmusician VOTE 04:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, according to recent studies, Lima's poverty % is now 40%+, now above 50 like it was 10 years ago, plus the slums in Lima are nothing like they used to be a few decades ago. Slums like the ones shown in the picture are still common in Lima, but nowhere as common as they used to be 20 years ago. So I think these pictures should be there. But anyway, that's just my opinion.Gustav1993 VOTE —Preceding comment was added at 21:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, this is an encyclopedia, not a travel guidebook or PromPeru. Articles should show the good, the bad and the ugly facts.Hpdl —Preceding comment was added at 16:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that we should white wash the fact that Peru is a poor country. That being said, the discription page for the photo that was added mentions that the area that was photographed is currently vastly different than it was at the time the picture was taken, which was over a decade ago. Having a picture of a poor area is fine, but ideally it would be an up-to-date photo. --Descendall (talk) 19:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the picture should be removed. It's been more than 10 years this picture was taken. The article in demographics clearly explains about the pueblos jovenes, so if people want more information about it, they would find it better in the pueblos jovenes article.--User:Soydeaqui (talk) 10 January, 2008

On the contrary, the fact that the Demographics section deals with pueblos jovenes is a good reason to put the slums pic. Pics in Wikipedia are used to illustrate the accompanying text. --Victor12 (talk) 19:07, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Then, it would also be better to put more pics to ilustrate more about Lima's demographics and expand it, and also to get a more up to date picture since it might probably look more urban today. Besides, this same pic is also in the pueblos jovenes article. --Soydeaqui (talk) 19:07, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

There's not enough text to put more pics in this section. Slums are up to this day a representative part of Lima, thus it makes sense to have such a pic in the article. --Victor12 (talk) 19:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe then that it would be a good idea to expand this article since the demographics in Lima are complex. Even though slums might be a representative part of Lima, it is not the only representative part alone, so it would be a good idea to show the reader more. --Soydeaqui (talk)

Feel free to expand this article. Just try to use references for your info. As for the readers, the article currently has pics of several different parts of Lima so I don't think anybody is being misled by one slum pic. --Victor12 (talk) 19:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Some users are repeatedly removing the slums picture (thanks Victor12 for reverting). They seem to be new, so we'll assume good faith and ask them to please stop. If you want to get the pic removed and have good arguments for it, please feel free to comment on this talk page so that we can reach consensus. Hugo (talk) 13:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know like someone can be so stupid of thinking that Lima is a Slum in great part —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.40.202.128 (talk) 20:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I have had to semi-protect this article which has already been semi-protected in the past by Ryulong due to this persistent long-term edit warring by IPs. This has been happening for months now.--Jersey Devil (talk) 04:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

HI you all (dutch girl here) It is interesting to follow your discussion here. I want to add one point, my personal opinion as a foreigner who lived in LIma for 1 year. I agree that you need to have seen the city before you can give an opinion. However displaying Lima like it is is the pretty town by talking about only the colonial down town or Miraflores or Larcomar is wrong. Yes those areas are pretty and many rich tourists go there. But I worked in Jesus-Maria (pretty area), and driving there I went tru some not so pretty areas...and there are many neighbourhoods that are not so pretty. Like in any big city there is violance (just turn on peruvian tv and ever day there are (bad journalistic) reports about crashed, deaths, misery etc etc). An article (like journalism) should be representing the (objective some times inconveniant) truth and portaying Lima as a pretty city with districts like Miraflores and San Isidro and forgetting about Villa El Salvador or Cristibal is not the right picture. Sorry but that is the truth. Yes there has been improvement in the pueblos jovenes, but there should be more! How many poor people are living there (or worse on the streets) in Lima? And if in other city they dont show those picture does that make this article wrong or the other ones? These areas also determine the city view, its demography, its politics and they should be represented. But I do agree, you need to see it first and get your own impresion before you can write about it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.211.52.91 (talk) 11:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a news outlet

Why is this article tagged with "This article documents a current event". Lima is not a current event. They had an earthquake tonight, one of hundreds in the country's history, but only one other is mentioned in this article. Why is tonight's so significant? Because it is the fist major one since Wikipedia was invented? Why is there no mention of the 1974 earthquake, which was worse than this one? Why do you feel the need to be the first to update this page with this breaking news? Does it make you feel important? And why on Earth would anyone include the canceled tsunami warning in this article? This isn't CNN - in a month, no one will remember the canceled tsunami warning, yet you feel it needs to be in the Lima article as part of Lima's history? You people who feel it so necessary to update Wikipedia articles as soon as you can with breaking news stories do a great disservice to these articles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gr8deadfan75 (talk • contribs) 04:28, August 15, 2007 (UTC).

I agree, if anything it should have a short mention but not it's own section as it did before and which I have removed. That kind of "breaking news" is meant for Wikinews not Wikipedia.--Jersey Devil 05:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Marriott Hotel??

Larco Museum. Housed in a viceroyal mansion atop a pre-Columbian pyramid. Lima, Peru.

Is it really necessary to have a picture of the Marriott Hotel on this page? It seems more like an advertisement to me. I don't think the Marriott Hotel holds much significance to Miraflores or Lima in general other than being the target of bombings a few years back. The Larco Museum in Pueblo Libre is a unique place in Lima. The museum itself sits atop a pre-Columbian pyramid and is housed in an 18th century colonial. The museum also hosts the largest private collection of pre-columbian art in the world. I find this much more significant than and American hotel chain. Any thoughts? Here's the picture I'm thinking of posting---> Lyndsayruell 21:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the Marriott pic is not necessarily the best one for this section. However, I don't think the Larco Museum pic is appropriate either. The Marriott pic is in the "Districts" section, a pic of a museum does not represent anything on how Lima districts are. Lima museums are mentioned in the "Culture" section, that's were such a pic should go. But, as you can see, that section is already filled up with pics. --Victor12 04:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

the information posted for lima, peru is wrong someone needs to fixed because i'am from peru so I know lots of stuff please they need to fixed it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.46.211.120 (talk) 22:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

THEY NEED TO FIX THE ARTILCE EVERYTHING IS WRONG I'M FROM PERU SO I KNOW THEY DON'T CALL MY COUNTRY THE CITY OF KINGS AND THE MOTTO IS NOT THE THE MOTTO FOR PERU IS SOMOS LIBRES SEREMOS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.46.211.120 (talk) 22:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The information on this entry is mediocre and biased, the result of the perennial problem of Peru: its own people backstabbing, attacking and tripping each other because of jelousy. It is ridiculous that Peruvians cannot even agree on something so trivial as a Wikipedia entry. Retrograde Peruvian mentality is 50 years behind with the rest of its neighbors, and 100 years behind with the developed world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.224.96.70 (talk) 18:05, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

3D images of Latinamerica - ca. 100 images of Lima

Perhaps it would be worth to insert an external link reference to the website 3dlatinamerica.com. There are a lot of excellent images of Lima in 3 Dimensions.

Regards.

Michael —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.218.157.212 (talk) 19:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• We're sorry but Wikipedia is WP:NOT a soapbox for 3d-lenses galleries. user:andersmucician —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.42.233.135 (talk) 01:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Main Picture

Hi, I want to propose people to find a more suitable pic for the Main Infobox, since the one currently there blurry and buildings are very dark, guess pic was shot at at relatively bad moment of the day. Do you you think we still need a skysline, or an image of important spots?--Andersmusician VOTE 20:42, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

• check out these I found--Andersmusician VOTE 20:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Large area pics

• 
  Ye olde Acho Bullring
• 
  Paseo de los Héroes Navales
• 
  San Cristobal
• 
  Abancay Av.

Landmark pics

• 
  Plaza SanMartin
• Lima Cathedral (2)
  Lima Cathedral (2)
• 
  Cathedral Dusk (3)

I agree, we need a better pic. The Abancay avenue pic is quite nice but I'm not sure if it should go in the infobox. The problem with the large area pics is that none of them show the full complexity of the city. A wider shot might be required for that, maybe something like the Acho pic. Unfortunately, this pic is kind of blurry. So until we get a better panoramic picture I think we should use one of the landmark ones. Maybe the Cathedral, it is one of the earliest buildings of the city (even if it has been rebuilt several times) and it looks quite nice. --Victor12 (talk) 21:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

well, actually really big cities show certain parts only in main INFOBOX pic (the most notable place, or theme: see New York(Any tall building), Moscow(Kremlin), [[Sao Paulo(tall buildings[new theme over favelas])]]) but yeah meanwhile we could use landmark since Lima isnt the same everywhere. I propose "Plaza de Armas", just think the church may not be neutral (religion)--Andersmusician VOTE 03:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I find none of the proposed pictures suitable...and given only these options would prefer the blurry photo of the dark buildings. Someone must have a skyline shot somewhere! I am especially opposed to the shot of the Cerro San Cristobal. Previously I ranted :) that it seems like a double standard to me that to be "objective" slums must be shown in pages of Latin American cities, but there is no such concern regarding European or North American cities. El Cerro San Cristobal is not representative of Lima in any meaningful way. Perhaps the Plaza San Martin shot, but it would be a second choice to any skyline shot...just my opinion. Rafajs77 (talk) 00:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

yes its true , a skyline would be deftinively better user:andersmusician--201.230.5.86 (talk) 15:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Slums?

Several arguments have been made about displaying all aspects of Lima, including shanty towns. I have been critical of this, and I know that there is merely 1 picture of slums in the outskirts of Lima...so not a big deal in the grand scheme, but I went exploring.

Bogotá, Colombia
La Paz, Bolivia
Quito, Ecuador
México D.F., México
Caracas, Venezuela
Montevideo, Uruguay
Asunción, Paraguay
Santiago, Chile

NOT ONE photo of a slum...NOT ONE. My point of contention is simple, people already know that Latin America is a developing region, many, I'm sure, would look up Lima EXPECTING to find photos of misery...what would be informative would be to show them that this is not always the case, or not even mostly the case. Any thoughts? Rafajs77 (talk) 09:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The article has a wide variety of pics showing different aspects of the city. Slums are an important part Lima, lots of people leave in them. Thus, they should be shown, not hidden in an encyclopedic article. Remember this is not a travel guide. --Victor12 (talk) 15:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey Victor! I agree that the article shows a variety of aspects of the city of Lima. I think this is good. Though I don't know what the comment about the "travel guide" is about, since travel guides show shanty towns too (see Lonely Planet). I guess I am uncomfortable with the notion that we are somehow holding to standards for wikipedia when there are so many examples of places where you DON'T see what we show here. Add to the above list: London, Paris, New York City, Los Angeles, Seattle, Shanghai, Johannesburg, Sucre, Brasilia, Guadalajara, Medellin, Sao Paolo, and even other cities in Peru like Arequipa, Trujillo and Chiclayo...NOT ONE photo of a slum, or an economically run-down area. Rafajs77 (talk) 16:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Then the problem is in those articles, not in this one. Hopefully they will be held accountable for the missing pics when they try to run for featured article status. Greetings, --Victor12 (talk) 16:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Victor is correct. And furthermore anyone who has been behind removing those pics for the last few months should stop it immediately. It is basically long-term abuse that has given us all headaches in trying to deal with it.--Jersey Devil (talk) 18:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

O.K. I think I can be at peace with that, but I know that many people who contribute to this page also contribute to pages for other Latin American countries (and other countries around the world generally) and thus I hope that when you have ocassion you hold those other places to the same standard that you do so. I have no photographs of that sort to add, but I imagine there must be some already uploaded. Oh, and I agree that deletions without consultation are innane and rude. Rafajs77 (talk) 20:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Where's the slum picture?

Victor you talk a lot of sense, this isn't a travel guide. Someone mentioned Paris and London...seriously, these cities barely have what you'd call 'slums' so it's not surprising there's no pics in the articles. As far as New York or Los Angeles, they have their very own articles on crime which I would think more than evens things up. Power Society (talk) 00:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's the pic Lima#Demographics. Thanks for your comments. --Victor12 (talk) 00:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Victor. Power Society (talk) 07:26, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

unknown person

Hola, como estan todos amigos de wikipedia, soy peruano primeramente y la verdad muy enamorado de esta bella ciudad (donde naci)revisando la version inglesa sobre Lima la verdad que me parece deficiente, como que falta mas informacion, por mi parte trato de expandirla, pero me gustaria que la mejoren, otro asunto que la verdad me indigna es que pongan demasiadas fotos de los asentamientos humanos, segun ellos es una parte representativa de la ciudad, yo creo que toda ciudad tiene sus problemas, pero de ahi a querer resaltar lo malo, la verdad que hasta es denigrante, no se si seran personas antiperuanas(por los comentarios) , Lima tiene lugares tan bonitos comp ara presentar a ver si pueden poner mas fotos en la version inglesa y la tratan de expandir, Muchas Gracias —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.60.255.62 (talk) 19:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

use english my friend--190.43.242.145 (talk) 03:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW: there's only ONE single bad/ugly picture in the article XD --190.43.242.145 (talk) 03:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't even try (Ni intentes)...the photos of the shanty town stays, because as it has been explained to me (after my various rants), they are presenting the totality of Lima in this article. However, if you're the person responsible for some of the photo additions...I think I like them. Including the collage in the infobox. Rafajs77 (talk) 03:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

It's false that a great part of Lima are full of slums, nowadays Lima has am important medium class, even though slums has been improving now are medium class districts, neighborhoos like North Lima, Los Olivos, Comas Ancon which you say that are fulkl of slums are nice districts, also Lima has a good number of wealthy districts, San Iisdro, Miraflores, Chaclacayo, Cienguilla, San borja, La Molina, and south Lima. is for that reason I PUT A BETTER PICTURE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.60.255.62 (talk) 13:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I've blocked the user for 1 month and will be giving 3 month blocks to IPs who edit war on this article from now on. We don't have to deal with this.--Jersey Devil (talk) 16:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

        you are a foreigner, not a peruvian, you don´'t know more my country than me, liar!!!!

i would like to put a better pic ok!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.43.147.153 (talk) 19:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Article Semi-Protected Indefinitely

Because of persistent edit warring by what seems to be one user on multiple IPs I've indefinitely semi-protected the article. Sorry to all the new and unregistered users, if you have any suggestions on how we should change the article please discuss below, however user's shouldn't have to put up with persistent vandalism that has continued over the span of several months.--Jersey Devil (talk) 10:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

PLEASE CAN YOU DISBLOCKED THE PAGE I WANT TO PUT IMPORTANT INFORMATION AND BETTER PICTURES

You can always explain what you want done, and a registered editor can take care of it. The article was vandalised by people with IP addresses that look nearly exactly like yours for so long that there's not a chance that anyone would unprotect the article to allow you to edit it.—Kww(talk) 04:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

And you can always sign up for an account and stick around for awhile, then you will be able to edit the article yourself. Either way though, it's always best to discuss your changes here on the talk page first! Franamax (talk) 06:25, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The article is a bit lame

Hey, please spare me the comment about travel guides and consider my point substantively. I have been watching this article as it develops and have seen positive changes, negative changes, things I agreed with and things I disagreed with. All these in-between steps are mostly irrelevant to me now.

What I am concerned with is the finished product...wasn't this in the improvement drive? It is such a dull article for a city with over 400 years of history. Specifically:

1) The fact that apparently consensus can't be reached regarding an iconic image to locate in the infobox (it seems to change every month).

2) Not enough photographs are provided to illustrate the text, and some, like the satellite photo and the old map of the city, are just inconsequential to understanding any of the substantive points in the text.

3) There are pictures without any context, like the intersection photo...where is that? what district? what streets? Or the picture of the Tico under transportation? Where are the buses, the freeways?

I don't know...isn't there a way to strike a better balance between being objectively informative and making the information accessible and appealing to the user? Rafajs77 (talk) 21:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Too much

Man! I tried inserting a photo then reverted when I noticed it kind of screwed up the page layout only to scroll down and find that the article has been populated (overpopulated) by photos. It is too much I think. For example one image (the Via Expresa) is from Flickr and it is grainy and has poor resolution, and it isn't even necessary because there is another via expresa photo below it.

The map of the "extent of control Lima maintained during the Colonial period" is, well, funny. That control was rather tenuous to say the least.

The FORMER banco de credito headquarters? Why?

The Golf park under society and culture seems odd, as does the skyline of Miraflores under sister cities, and the headquarters of the Andean community of nations should be under a heading of international associations (if it exists, or people want to add one), not under government.

Some of the images are great, thanks to whomever added them, but some seem like they don't belong. Anyone object to them being removed? Or at least moved around? Rafajs77 (talk) 21:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I also think there's an excess of pictures, this excess is in some situations resulting in image "stackups" (something we should avoid according to the Manual of Style). Additionally, Image:Areasoflima.png is unsourced, according to who San Miguel, Magdalena, Pueblo Libre, Jesús María, Lince, San Isidro, etc. are grouped as the "Commercial Area"? the same question goes for the districts grouped as the "Beach areas"; a reliable source is needed such as information from INEI or the Municipalidad Metropolitana de Lima. And why is the Infobox World Heritage Site placed in the "Tourism" subsection? I think that infobox shouldn't be in this article because is too specific. --Aucahuasi (talk) 14:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Images to delete

These are the images I think should be deleted either because they are of very poor quality, not related to text, redundant, or unnecessary.

• 
• 
• File:Andeancommunity.jpg
• 
• File:Antiguo banco de credito.jpg
• File:Lima Golf Club.jpg
• File:Comandosur.jpg
• File:Via expresa skyline.JPG
• File:Sanmartinplaza.jpg

Additionally, at the end of the article, the costa verde skyline shot (since it was finally confirmed apparently) should be the skyline shot in the infobox, instead of the night shot. Again, what do people think? Rafajs77 (talk) 12:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

---

Reasons to keep the images:

1. This picture is a map of Peru during the colonial era. It is pertinant as Lima was in the colonial era for 63% of it's existance. It would be a present-day bias to only display current-day locater maps.

2. This picture not only illustrates what perhaps may be the city's most important landmark but also represents an important focal point throughout the city's history, further exemplified by the fact hat the image was created in 1860.

3. The image of the andean community headquarters is located in a section with images of each branch of government. Other images in this section include the Government palace, the legislative palace, and the justice palace. This photo is meant to represent the supranationalstic branch of government.

4. This image has already been removed.

5. This image is meant to portray the other financial district of Lima located in the cercado as there are already a few images of the San Isidro financial district. It is of vital importance as many coorporate headquarters are located in this area as well as the Bolsa de Valores. I have changed the caption to clarify this intented meaning.

6. This image is an important component of the city's skyline as many of it's buildings are located here.

7. I felt it would be non-POV to portray the stadium of one major team and not the other due to the fact that they are equal in importance to Peruvian society.

8. This picture is mostly illustrating the city's skyline rather than the via expresa.

9. The plaza San Martin is a focal point and a landmark of the city and therefore is illustrated. In regards to its location in the article, there have been images located in the excact same spot for the last eleven months and nothing has been made of it until now. Additionally, there is no strict rule defining the relationship a image must have with its section.

I honestly do not see the reason to delete images. Images are ways to convey ideas that text cannot and without them, or without enough of them, these ideas become absent from the encyclopedia. In relation to formatting, I see no dilema in this article formatting-wise as the text is easily readable and not interfered on by the images. Many other capital city article have comparable or in many cases more images than this article. For some examples see Buenos Aires, Bogotá, Caracas, Sao Paulo, Istambul (not capital), Guangzhou (not capital). After looking over these city articles, if anything I think more images should be added and we should figure out a way to properly format the article in a way that the text and the images complement each other making it easy to read. Deleting images is not a way to acomplish this. As the saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words and by deleting an image you might as well be deleting a thousand words of text from the article. Also, I previously re adjusted image sizes to some requests from some users however I still see this as a mistake. The manual of style are guidlines, not strict unbreakable rules and some city articles such as Bogotá, Buenos Aires, and Istambul have their images sized anywhere from 250-1000px.

Vivaperucarajo (talk) 03:13, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

picture error

In the right images, it says: Bottom right: Palace of Justice, Bottom left: Plaza San Martin skyline. The picture of the left is the "Palace of Justice" and the right one is "Plaza San Martin skyline".

I am peruvian so i know very well that.

Hackycrema--Hackycrema (talk) 20:01, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Swapped left/right description in the banner caption. --ErickAgain (talk) 11:36, 13 November 2008 (UTC).

Metropolitan Municipality of Lima vs. Provincial Council of Lima

What is the difference between the two? I thought the metropolitan council was the provincial council. Are you sure that the provincial council is not the council of the unconnected region of Lima? --Criticalthinker (talk) 05:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I think both are the same thing. I found some information on the Metropolitan Municipality of Lima website that it may be useful for you. Aucahuasi (talk) 05:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The Metropolitan Municipality is the entity which governs the Lima province. It is no diferent than any Provincial Municipality throughout the country except that it receives certain special rights due to it not belonging to any of the county's 25 regions. The provincial council is an actual legislative assemby of council members. consejo municipalidad Vivaperucarajo (talk) 01:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

If that is the truth, then one of them needs to be removed from the infobox because that is quite confusing as it is listed. It seems to imply that there is both a municipal and provincial council. If they are in fact one and the same thing, then all that we need to make reference to is the municipal council. --Criticalthinker (talk) 10:08, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Article length

I think the article is rather long. For instance, the "History" section is longer than its main article! (History of Lima). The same goes for the "Subdivisions" section. According to Wikipedia:Summary style information in the sections should be a summary of their respective main article. For these reasons I think the article needs to be shortened. --Aucahuasi (talk) 05:56, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think instead of removing information, we should enlarge the History of Lima main article itself to make it larger than the section on this page. I do not see how the removal of information is ever beneficial to an encyclopedia. The article, being a capital of a country, should be relatively large and many other capital city articles are of similar length. The article is just much longer than it previously was because new sections were added. With the exception of two of the three subdivisions of the history section, none of the sections are particularly long. Additionally all of the sections are relevant to the article and as such should not be removed. Vivaperucarajo (talk) 00:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Aucahuasi, the "History" section has grown out of all proportion. IMHO the problem is that the text tends to wander out of its main subject which is the city itself. For instance, the description of the conflict between Almagro and Pizarro and the explanation on the social order of colonial Peru are quite irrelevant in this article; they are a better fit for the Viceroyalty of Peru article. Wikipedia recomends using a Wikipedia:Summary style in its articles because very long articles are problematic. I think we should apply this guideline to the "History" section specially since we already have a History of Lima article. --Victor12 (talk) 02:01, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more, we should keep in mind that Lima is the current Peru Collaboration Effort, so our work should focus on improving this article to featured article status. There's a lot of work to do, perhaps it would be a good idea to follow the example of other featured articles about cities such as Delhi, Dhaka, Erie, Pennsylvania, Kochi, India, Minneapolis, Tumbler Ridge, British Columbia, etc which don't have its sections split into subsections. --Aucahuasi (talk) 19:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Language

Just checking, or seeking opinions on this...I know the article has more serious issues. The section on language links to an article (Peruvian Coastal Spanish) that does not have verifiable citations or references. Statements like these seem non-encyclopedic:

"the lack of strong innotations as found in many other regions of the Spanish-speaking world. It is heavily influenced by the Spanish spoken in Castile as throughout the colonial era, the colonial Spanish nobility was based in Lima, of which most originated from Castile. [62] Limean Spanish is also characterized by the lack of voseo, a trait present in the dialects of many other Latin American countries. This is due to that voseo was primarily utilized by the lower socioeconomic classes of Spain" (emphasis mine).

This reads more like a historical account of high society in Lima...at best. At worst, it strikes me as a bit of elitist nationalism. Before someone jumps on my comments, I am originally from Lima. Rafajs77 (talk) 19:54, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Demographics section longer than the main article

The demographics section is longer (and thus contains more information) than the main article: Demographics of Lima. This doesn't seem right. Shouldn't it just be a summary of what's in the main article and not contain any information that isn't in the main article? Aidanb (talk) 21:51, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Material Error in the demo section the jewish population of Peru is approx 2,200. This in not a "large" number as the author contends. see http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.184.64.51 (talk) 02:41, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

yep the article is slowly becoming a mess, seems people from the spanish wikipedia are editing this more often. --Andersmusician NO 05:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

American Embassy in San Borja?!

I lived for some time (1 year) in Lima, as far as I remember the Embassy is NOT found in San Borja but in Santiago de Surco (or short Surco), in Montericco (subdistrict of Surco). The same goes for Golf Club (in Surco). (I lived about 300 meter from the Embassy :-) )Link of US Embassy: http://lima.usembassy.gov/contact.html The article mentions la Molina, but there is, in my opinion, not to many interesting things to be found there, while Surco has: Golf Club, Jockey Plaza (A very large, kinda fancy shopping mall), horse tracks (Jockey plaza), American Embassy, and several university (UNiversidad de Lima, UPC). La Molina has the Agricultural State University (UNALM), Moliplaza (a small mall) and is a very nice residential area for middle to upperclass (although of course each middle to upperclass districts has its bad parts as well..). I wouldn't say La Molina is wealthy without including at least Surco. It has a lot of wealthy areas like is golf de inca (close to golf club), Casuarinas, Montericco, El Polo (in front of US embassy) and maybe support it with a citation?

I am not someone that ever contributed to Wiki, dont plan to write pages or something. I just thought this information should be out there, based on my personal experience, so some people can check it out and maybe correct it. They are all suggestions (althought the one of the Embassy is a strong suggestion ;-) )

Cheers,

Dutch girl —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.211.52.91 (talk) 11:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with this comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supermellowman (talk • contribs) 16:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Page Protection

I requested page protection over the edit warring over removing a picture from this page. This comment is per the admin request who protected the page. Hires an editor (talk) 12:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

the issue has been assesed several times with the same outcome, now on the archives.--Andersmusician NO 20:59, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

nonscholarly web site

Please do not put citations to nonscholarly web sites on articles, as you did on the "pope" article. Leadwind (talk) 20:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)