Talk:Lightvessel stations of Great Britain

Broken links

Hi,

The external links on the former light-vessels section are all broken links / out of date1234567jack (talk) 18:12, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

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LV14

This lightship is not the same as this one but they are both claiming to be lightvessel number 14. Is it a different numbering scheme perhaps? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:34, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Sula was commissioned by the Humber Conservancy Board and Helwick by Trinity House. It is quite likely, but needs checking, that each used their own numbering systems which overlap. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 12:57, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

That's right - both were LV14 independently. See here for the Humber one, built 1959, and now Sula; the Trinity House one built in 1953 and on many stations, of which Helwick was the last. Davidships (talk) 02:42, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Light float?

What is the difference between a light vessel and a light float? This one still operates at Mersey Bar and it looks like a vessel to me — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

A light float is designed for unmanned operation from the start. The physical requirements of lantern size and height above sea-level, plus the requirement for it to be towed to and from its station means it will, inevitably, end up resembling the older light vessel design. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 12:45, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, that makes sense. Do you think it would be accurate to say that the Mersey Bar station is still active? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:05, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

If there is a light float deployed there it is still active. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 13:31, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Halfway between a navigational buoy and the traditional lightship - replaced the now-obsolete (and not very satisfactory) Lanby. Davidships (talk) 02:55, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I've answered this by creating a page for starters: light float. Will add more later.Svejk74 (talk) 12:36, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Docking Shoal

I have removed an entry of a former lightvessel station at Docking Shoal, Norfolk coast. I can find no references or Google hits to verify its existence. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:58, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

It's mentioned on a facebook page <https://www.facebook.com/604762550348552/posts/bar-mersey-estuary-maintained-by-mdhbbarrow-deep-barrow-deep-channel-thames-estu/604819173676223/> also at <https://bankline.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/lightvessels-around-the-british-isles-.pdf.> Murgatroyd49 (talk) 22:05, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

The Facebook page seems to be mostly copy and pasted from Wikipedia, so it's a circular reference. The Docking Shoal was marked with buoys, not a lightvessel AFAIK.Svejk74 (talk) 02:50, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Active station names

I am pretty sure that describing these as "...Light Vessel Automatic" is wrong. The stations are simply Channel, Sandettie, etc - the "Automatic" bit comes from the weather station on the LV that is referenced on the shipping forecast. The article titles themselves will need changing too.Svejk74 (talk) 10:51, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Agreed and updated on the table — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:26, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Dudgeon Shoal

There is both a Dudgeon and East Dudgeon Shoal off Lincolnshire and I'm pretty sure that for most of the time the lightship station was simply called "Dudgeon" (53°15.5′N 1°13.5′E). However there seems to have been an "East Dudgeon" station by the 1940s as referenced in the film Men of the Lightship.

I have found a reference from 1922 stating "Dudgeon Light Vessel was moved from the southern end of Dudgeon Shoal to a posit on off the northern end of East Dudgeon Shoal in 141 fathoms , without change of characteristics except that the name is changed to East Dudgeon" so it may be there was a move at some point - I also suspect the "Dudgeon" station was at some point reinstated, however.Svejk74 (talk) 22:11, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

I've renamed in back to just "Dudgeon". If we are not completely sure if East Dudgeon was a separate station, then would it be better to add a note to that entry rather than using an additional entry? Have you got a reference for that position? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:31, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Falls

This was near Falls Shoal in the Thames estuary. A reference and location is given here. Note there are also some decent (copyrighted) photos online from 1986.Svejk74 (talk) 23:43, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, you are obviously better at searching for sources than me. That looks like a useful source of info for many other stations too. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:01, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I find no references to a "Falls Shoal". Is it the same as something referred to as "Tail of the Falls"? [1] — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:36, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Not sure about the "tail" of the Falls, which I assume refers to the same shoal, but an example reference is Norie, 1846, here, which talks about the North and South Falls as connected to the Four Mile Knolls (I.e. a fair distance out). I have found a couple of references to the Falls Shoal alone. NB I also suspect the LV station may only have commenced in 1972 with the opening of a new deep draught shipping route, which might explain the relatively few references.Svejk74 (talk) 13:17, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Images

Sadly we do not really have sufficient images of vessels on the former lightvessel stations, and unless the picture shows the vessel actually on-station, then it does not really represent the station itself. So I've removed that column for now. I'm not sure if putting a few images alongside the table will work well on narrow screens, but just trying it out. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:15, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Finding usable photos of light vessls on station is going to be a problem. I was lucky to get the one of Calshot Spit as she was withdrawn a few days later. NB: While you are looking at the style of presentation, why not abbreviate the vessel descriptions to LV73 or whatever rather than endlessly repeating Light Vessel no.73. Also vessel names, such as Alarm, should be italicised for consistency. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 10:59, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Probbly work better with any images as a gallery after the table. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 19:26, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Good points, all. Pictures do exist as simple google searches will show, but getting permission to use them or proving copyright has expired will be difficult. Regarding the LV numbers, that may be a good idea. But we might have to restrict the table to Trinity House stations to avoid confusion, e.g. with LV14 above. I'm not sure how to get the template to use italics, but you can override any column in the table by using the parameter cn. For example |c2=ABC would set column 2 to ABC. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:38, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Just add a note for the non Trinity House vessels in the appropriate column. Also, as a table, you dont need "(from XXXX to YYYY)", just XXXX–YYYY would do. Makes the table less cluttered. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 21:51, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Additional English stations

I've found a couple of additional ones I missed when I put the list together over a decade ago (!):

• Bembridge - one of the three Admiralty LVs
• Cromer Knoll - not put in place until 1920s, possibly not reinstated after WWII?
• Swarte Bank - seems to have been discontinued in 1920s?

Svejk74 (talk) 00:11, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Great! Please add to the table. If you have any sources for the positions of these stations, then please add these. I found one source which just specified the latitudes and not longitudes (how useless it that?) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:40, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Another couple found: South Folkestone Gate and North Folkestone Gate, the latter discontinued in 1920, the former still there in July 1940, when it was attacked by Stukas and sunk. These marked the Folkestone Gate (obviously enough) - I will add them after hopefully finding some referenced positions.Svejk74 (talk) 22:25, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

That reference you found says that in 1919 South Folkestone was moved 2 miles and renamed Anglia, coordinates given — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:35, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I think the two Folkestone Gate lightships were a temporary wartime measure as part of the Channel anti submarine defences - however it appears that the South Folkestone Gate LV at least was reinstated in WWII, as it was bombed.Svejk74 (talk) 11:55, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Ireland

We have a separate article Lightvessels in Ireland, which currently has a small overlap with this article. However, there should be a much larger overlap if we stuck to "Lightvessels in the United Kingdom" for this article, since all lightvessels around the island of Ireland were in the UK from 1801 to, say, 1927. For the purposes of these two articles, the political changes are irrelevant - indeed, the Commissioners of Irish Lights was one of a tiny handful of Ireland-wide organisations whose status and activities did not change as a consequence of Irish independence. Better then, in my view, that Lightvessels in Ireland is clarified in the Lead to indicate that it is referring to the island of Ireland; and that this article be renamed Lightvessels of Great Britain. Davidships (talk) 16:24, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

That sounds like a reasonable idea David. The only downside I can think of: it would end the 1-1 relationship with the commons category Category:Lightships of the United Kingdom where all the images are stored — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:11, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Maybe Commons will be equally convinced? Davidships (talk) 01:44, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm sure they would; would you be willing to help to sort the images into GB and non-GB? Should we use Lightvessels in or Lightvessels of? I think we can rename this article and then sort out the to categories Category:Lightships of the United Kingdom and commons:Category:Lightships of the United Kingdom next. Another thought: this article/list is quite long and removing Irish ships is not going to shorten it much. What about splitting into lightvessel stations and the lightvessels themselves? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:45, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I can help with the images - but probably best to get the WP articles straight first.

Only two small mentions of N Ireland lightvessels to move out of here - Petrel is already better covered in the Irish article, just South Rock station needs a mention - useful ref here - last occupant was Gannet already tabulated.

Agree that size and clarity make sense for two articles - this one, perhaps moved to Lightvessel stations of Great Britain - and a separate List of lightvessels of Great Britain, or similar. My inclination would be "of" rather than "in" as some in their retirement have wandered off a bit. I think that for Ireland, a single article is manageable, but structured similarly.

By the way, I do not think that it is necessary to mention Gibraltar or Channel Islands in this article - there have certainly never been any TH LVs at Gibraltar, and I'm pretty sure it's true of the Channel Islands (and, so far as Northern Lighthouse Board is concerned, in Isle of Man waters). Davidships (talk) 19:49, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I see you found Bahama Bank, IOM - thanks. Davidships (talk) 15:08, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Okay that all sounds good to me. Shall we wait another day in case anyone else wants to comment? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:21, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Yep, agree. Davidships (talk) 20:31, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I have made a start with List of lightvessels of Great Britain. All interested editors are invited to watchlist that article too. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:57, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Group by operator

Rather than grouping by country, what about grouping the stations by operating authority (Trinity House, Northern Lighthouse Board, Humber Conservancy, etc.)? That would save the repetition in the current 3rd column. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:21, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I see the point, and nothing against that. An alternative approach to eliminating the annoying Col.3 could be to note at the heads of each table that all stations were run by the relevant General Lighthouse Authority (TH or NLB), unless otherwise stated in the Notes.Davidships (talk) 22:20, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Grouping by authority works well.Svejk74 (talk) 13:35, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

East Oaze

Was there an East Oaze light station? According to [2] LV60 was sunk there in 1940. Also mentioned here [3] — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:51, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes. East Oaze had been a buoy station since at least the 1870s, but soon after the beginning of WW2 five additional light vessels were installed, at five-mile intervals on the channels swept for mines: Barrow, East Oaze, West Oaze, East Swin and West Swin. After the persistent air attacks (and loss of East Oaze) they were usually unmanned and unlit (though useful as day-marks); later in the war the LVs were withdrawn from those stations and moored in Sea Reach [Woodman, Richard (1983). Keepers of the Seas. Lavenham: Terence Dalton. p. 130. ISBN 0-86138-018-5.]. Six, perhaps seven, were killed - the Tower Hill Memorial has six names, but one other was buried at Great Yarmouth (so body presumably recovered). Davidships (talk) 02:05, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Clyde

I've found a few references to this lightvessel but am unsure if it was unattended (as with most NLB vessels); most sources seem to state that only North Carr was crewed. There is, however, a reference (in Shipbuilding and Shipping Record, vol 65, 1945) to an "Archibald Keith Walker , Senior Master , Clyde Lightvessel , Northern Lighthouse Board" which suggests it was crewed. Any ideas? Is it just that most sources seem to ignore the Clyde LV entirely, possibly as it wasn't in operation very long?Svejk74 (talk) 08:37, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Answered my own question: it was crewed, using the same LV as North Carr, but moved to a wartime station in the Firth of Clyde.Svejk74 (talk) 11:41, 23 December 2021 (UTC)