Talk:Lôn Goed

Translation of Lôn Goed

We should give a translation of 'Lôn Goed' into English. My Welsh is very limited, but I think 'Wood Lane' is accurate, although 'Woodland Lane' would be more evocative. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:11, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

@Verbcatcher I think your right, Lon is lane. Let me confirm a full translation later today... Cltjames (talk) 04:23, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

The Wood Lane. Cltjames (talk) 09:42, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Surely 'The Wood Lane' is a translation of 'Y Lôn Goed'. We imply that 'Lôn Goed' is the usual form of the name, without the definite article, so we should tralslate it as 'Wood Lane'. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

@Verbcatcher I added the dailypost reference some more times because or the ambiguity of the other reference. Then reading the newspaper, it lists the walking path in English as: Tree Lane. This does also make sense as a translation, perhaps even more sense than wood, seeing as wood can also be termed in Welsh as 'pren'. Perhaps go with the reference in this case? Cltjames (talk) 03:07, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

@Cltjames: I know coed as a placename element indicating a wood, and according to Google, Coed (or Goed) can mean 'trees' or 'a wood', with Coeden being a word for a tree. 'Tree Lane' would be ok, as in English it can mean a lane with many trees while 'Trees Lane' is ungrammatical. It matches our claim that 'It is named after the two rows of trees', although I can't find where this is mentioned in our sources. I propose that we dodge the issue by following the example of visitsnowdonia.info:[1]

• Lôn Goed (lôn = lane, coed = trees), also known as Y Lôn Goed and Lôn Môn, is a rural lane in Eifionydd, Gwynedd, Wales.

I have tagged the rhosyddbach source as self-published, and we should try to eliminate this. Do you know what claims are only supported by this source? Verbcatcher (talk) 04:24, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

@Verbcatcher: I have amended the article by duplicating the dailypost reference and removing the blog as a duplicate reference, except for one reference to the nickname of the walk, Lon Mon. I also found some more relevant information regarding the lane from different websites, and a contemporary news story about the poem in the Welsh Eisteddfod. Otherwise, I would go with the newspaper reference from the North Wales Daily Post which names it: Tree Lane (in English). Cltjames (talk) 05:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done I have added 'Tree Lane'. Verbcatcher (talk) 07:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Image typo

I made an image file name typo by writing 'long' instead of 'lon'. I've also made a move request on Wikimedia Commons, if there is an image file error because of the name change, then please change the image name: File:Y Lon Goed.jpg, thanks.Cltjames (talk) 03:17, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

@Cltjames: I think a bot will do the rename here. Your new photo is beautiful, I hope you had a nice walk yesterday. There may be an issue with a wide composite image like this with some viewing devices, such as phones. We could change to a vertical format, but this doesn't look as good on a PC screen. It is a pity that 'autumn' is displayed so small – because it is vertical and the others are horizontal. It might help to crop them all to make them closer to square. It's more elegant to crop images using markup on the Wikipedia page, but it's easier to crop them on Commons. I use CropTool for cropping, please upload crops as new files. Verbcatcher (talk) 06:09, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

@Verbcatcher Ok, thanks for explaining that. Actually the photo is 3 years old, but oddly to the day it was posted. Thanks for your help on the article, it seems just a little bit was needed to bring the article to a higher standard. Cltjames (talk) 08:08, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, good idea. The cropped image looks much better. Also I was wondering about the possibility of creating a redirect for 'Lon Goed' article, and to create a new title for the complete grammatically correct naming, as in 'Y Lon Goed' which is better suited for the Welsh language as a formality for the naming of the pathway... ? Cltjames (talk) 16:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Title and redirects

@Cltjames: in reply to your question above about a redirect, we should have redirects for Y Lon Goed, Y Lôn Goed and probably Lôn Môn. There is already a redirect at Lon Goed which I have retargeted to this article. However, before we do this we should consider whether the article should be moved (renamed), as moving an article is more complex if the new name is already in use. Article titles should be based reliable English-language sources, see Wikipedia:Article titles, and formally-correct Welsh is not required. The Ordnance Survey 1:25,000 map uses 'Lôn Goed'.[2] I see no clear reason to change the name of the article, but if you do then please discuss it now. When this is settled I would be happy to create the redirects. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

@Verbcatcher yes, this article is on English Wikipedia, so ideally Y Lon Goed, without ô. Something to think about. Otherwise, for now, here's another reference (nation.cymru) that could be added, it can be listed under the section Storm Darwin... Something like:

The Chair was made from a large piece of oak tree planted on the edge of Y Lon Goed over 200 years ago.

The strong winds of Storm Darwin blew the whole tree down in February 2014, and a piece was presented to the Eisteddfod by Eifion Williams, Tyddyn Heilyn, when he heard the festival was coming to the area. Cltjames (talk) 13:47, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Why remove the circumflex? There is no such word as lon in English AFIK, and it changes the Welsh meaning to 'The Happy/Merry Woods' (soft mutation of llon) Rhyswynne (talk) 15:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

If English sources consistently use it, whether incorrect originally in Welsh, then it must still be considered. In the end, English-language usage matters more than correct Welsh on English Wikipedia. However adding a circumflex is not as easy on English keyboards, so readers will likely use without it, like Ynys Mon, so meeting the need of a redirect. DankJae 16:44, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I beg your pardon, I took it the suggestion was to change the title, not to create more redirects. An example was given of one article in nation.cymru by Cltjames which had no circumflex, but the are two other articles on nation.cymru, about the same subject, that do include the circumflex, along with Llŷn and y Ffôr, so it was just probably down to carelessness on behalf of the author rather than house style. I'm not suggesting that corrupted Welsh forms should not be used on the English Wikipedia, but we shouldn't perpetuate it. I've been editing Open Street Map recently, and on estates near my parents' house a lot of streets are called 'Lôn XYZ', but whoever added them to the map either forgot or didn't bother to add the circumflex, so one person's mistake (or indifference) could have unexpected consequences. Rhyswynne (talk) 10:25, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

@Rhyswynne, I guess it was once and very rare, and as referenced below, the circumflex should therefore be kept. Just saying it at least should've been considered, to follow what is commonly used rather than generally saying no circumflexes (because English) or always circumflexes (because Welsh). Sources since added below show it is more routinely used with a circumflex so the title at least should have that. But a redirect without it should still be made for readers and editors who forget to add it like that nation.cymru editor.

OSM policy focuses mainly on physical signage if possible, so if the sign did not have it, nor should OSM, although it probably is hard to verify such, or whether indeed it was a mistake of an editor there. DankJae 03:58, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I have been told that there is a trend in Welsh to drop circumflexes, but most sources seem use one here. We should be particularly guided by the more reliable sources: in this case news sites and national institutions.

• The Guardian: Lon Goed[3]
• Daily Post: Y Lôn Goed[4]
• Nation.Cymru: Y Lon Goed[5] and Lôn Goed[6]
• National Eisteddfod: Y Lôn Goed and Lôn Goed (once)[7][8]
• Ordnance Survey: Lôn Goed[9]

There does not appear to be sufficient consistency to merit a change. Verbcatcher (talk) 08:24, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm just arguing the creation of redirects, the current title seems fine, considering the OS seems the most official in the absence of a common name. DankJae 18:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Correct Welsh is Y Lôn Goed, but the question is is it necessary to add 'ô' on an English article? 'Y' because it's formal. Cltjames (talk) 12:05, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

@Cltjames, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:UE applies, whatever form is most used in English-language sources, regardless of whether it is correct in Welsh. @Verbcatcher's analysis shows no clear commonname, so no move is needed to a undetermined destination. Leaning keep current title, to match the OS, as that seems to be a consistent and authoritative source where there is no clear common form in English. Redirects can be made for the other forms. DankJae 20:23, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok thanks. I'm fine with that. I think the article is complete for now then. Cltjames (talk) 20:34, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

@Cltjames; @Verbcatcher, should the redirects be made now? Especially to justify the Boldface per MOS:BOLDREDIRECT. DankJae 04:00, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

@DankJae simply put, I believe that because it is an English website, the 'roof'/to (^) should not be in the title of the article. This also brings up the issue of 'Wenglish' (Welsh/English), but really, the naming should represent an English website, so I would suggest a renaming, it's uncomplicated name, A / The Wood lane. Wood Lane is already in use in London, but to be true to it's title in Welsh, it could be title the. But North Wales newspaper names it Tree Lane. Cltjames (talk) 04:18, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

@Cltjames, English Wikipedia follows what is used in English, not necessarily the "correct" English name per WP:USEENGLISH, and as shown above more sources include it. Also it's a circumflex btw. North Wales Live uses Y Lôn Goed in the first sentence, (Tree Lane in English) appears to me as a translation not the name. Many Welsh names are used in English without modification. If "the" is not consistently used then per WP:THE should not be included in the title.

I thought the title was settled, was just asking for an update to the creation of redirects. @Verbcatcher, and I aren't convinced of a rename so far, but if you believe it is needed be free to raise awareness to this discussion elsewhere and/or raise a RM. DankJae 04:28, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I apologise for dropping the ball about the redirects, I have now added Lon Goed, Y Lon Goed, Y Lôn Goed and Lôn Môn. I thought there was a consensus on the title, although it can be reopened. There is no problem using circumflexes in Wikipedia articles. Verbcatcher (talk) 19:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

7 or 5 miles?

@Verbcatcher: is there a way of explaining the actual full length from the car park is actually over 7 miles and that the lane itself if 5 miles ? Cltjames (talk) 13:17, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

@Cltjames: the car park at Bryncir appears to be intended for users of the Lôn Eifion cycle path. The use of this car park for the Lôn Goed walk appears to only be a recommendation of the mudandroutes website, and not an established route. I was surprised that I could not find a webpage or a leaflet on Lôn Goed on the Gwynedd Council website or published by the Pwllheli Tourist Information Centre. We might add:

• There is little provision for car parking at either end of Lôn Goed. Some walkers use the car park for the Lôn Eifion cycle path in Bryncir, which is about two miles (3 km) from the northern end of Lôn Goed.

However, in my view this would break the WP:NOTGUIDE policy. We should not include it unless we can find a reliable source that says that it is an officially-recommended route or the usual route. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:28, 7 November 2023 (UTC)