Talk:Léon Degrelle/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Kusma (talk · contribs) 13:22, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

I hope to review this one over the weekend. —Kusma (talk) 13:22, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Progress template and global comments

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

At first glance a well-referenced and very nice article about a not so nice person.

• Ref layout: any reason not to give the newspaper references the {{sfn}} treatment, perhaps with their own subsection?
  • There's only a handful of them and I didn't want to take on anymore invisible bytes for sfnref templates for them. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:38, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
• Sources look very good (on cursory inspection).
• Does not look or smell like copyvio. Earwig agrees.
• Made a few more ticks.
• Images still seem complicated, depending on whether certain images have been published and whether authors are known. Apart from the one currently nominated for deletion, File:Drapeau de Rex.svg doesn't say why the original flag is PD.
  •  Removed –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:03, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

  @Brigade Piron put them back in. The flag could possibly be not copyrightable by some argument like the one used for File:Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands Logo.svg, but that would need to be clarified on the licensing templates (and User:Tom-L is the one who created the SVG, but not the original creator of the flag). The other file is up for deletion, see here: c:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Léon Degrelle, 1941.jpg. —Kusma (talk) 13:16, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

  @Brigade Piron: I'm sad to see the Cegesoma pic go, but copyright is copyright. I'm totally out of my gourd with the Rex flag, though. Buidhe (talk), can you advise on this? –♠Vami_IV†♠ 15:20, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

  @Vami IV, your ping didn't work: @Brigade Piron. Also, maybe we need more Belgians: does anyone know what the Threshold of originality is in Belgium? Could there be a reasonable claim that File:Drapeau de Rex.svg is below that threshold? @Fram? —Kusma (talk) 18:51, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

  Re the Rexist flag, the original design is complex enough that I would guess it's eligible for copyright protection and this source suggests that Belgium has rather low TOO. (t · c) buidhe 21:05, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

  Our best bet may be to claim the image was published before 1930 and the author is anonymous (from Etienne, Les origines du rexisme, we know that it was used by the Christus Rex publishing house before Degrelle took over, so certainly before 1930, and the image could be from before 1926). So maybe it is free after all, just improperly tagged. It could be PD in the EU (c:Template:PD-anon-70-EU) but US copyright would depend on whether it is older than 1926? —Kusma (talk) 22:08, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

  I think I'm satisfied for the purposes of this review if a note is added to the flag image explaining that it is PD in Belgium (author unknown, published more than 70 years ago) and the Cegesoma picture is removed. —Kusma (talk) 21:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

  Done. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 22:43, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Section by section prose and content review

I will make detailed comments on every section here, looking at the lead last (in case any changes in the body necessitate changes in the lead).

• Early life section: sources/citation for second paragraph?
  • I cannot believe I didn't notice that citation disappearing. It has been restored. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 13:48, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
• Journalistic career: Several years after his failure when? The following makes it look like it was before 1927, which is not several years after 1925.
  •  Removed –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:04, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
• Degrelle had become interested in the perceived oppression of Mexican Catholics which led to the Cristero War which broke out in 1926. Tense? ...which had led to the 1926 outbreak of the Cristero War?
  •  Done Revised. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:04, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
• Link for doctorat de troisième cycle doesn't explain what this meant in Belgium in the 1920s.
  • This is one for Brigade Piron (talk). –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:04, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
    • This isn't in the source, I'm afraid, and is really an issue for the doctorat de troisième cycle article rather than this one. —Brigade Piron (talk) 16:16, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

      We don't have a doctorat de troisième cycle article, that is a redirect to Doctorate#France. After seeing fr:Grades de l'enseignement supérieur en Belgique, I guess just piping [[doctorate|doctorat de troisième cycle]] would work. Colignon writes "son existence estudiantine s'acheva... qu'il avait passé la première sous-épreuve de la deuxième année de doctorat en droit" so basically he dropped out of his law studies in the second year of the doctorate. —Kusma (talk) 20:30, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

• Political activism: into the a political party termed Rex or the Rexist Party apart from the extra word, better to link Rexist Party instead of what you do right now.
  •  Fixed That was a bizarre edit scar. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:04, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
• The section could maybe have a {{main|Rexist Party}}?
  • I've added an instance of Template:See also for this. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:04, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
• It would help to be told that the 1936 Belgian election was on 24 May, which explains why things on 3 May are hasty.
  •  Added –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:04, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
• In Belgium, Degrelle formed alliances with francophone groups, then met Italian fascists and received subsidies from them are these connected?
  • Yes; I've added "far-right" before "francophone groups" to underscore this. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:04, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
• the Nazi Party which had recently come to power in Germany that seems incorrect, the Nazis came to power in 1933.
  •  Removed –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:04, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
• In October, Degrelle returned to Belgium from where? As far as we know, he was in Belgium for the entire paragraph.
  •  Fixed –♠Vami_IV†♠ 14:04, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
• assistance of Otto Abetz was Abetz assisting Daye in his search or Degrelle in his life in Carcassonne? If you split the sentence you can probably clarify it. What was Abetz ambassador of at the time? You mention later that he became ambassador to France.
  • I've split the sentence, as advised and changed "ambassador" to "diplomat" (that was a goofy mistake; I should have noticed that Colignon nor Conway say he was an "ambassador" until he was made the Nazi ambassador in Paris). –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• Political agitation: I find the linking of "had been placed" odd, would suggest to either include "Belgium" in that link or to drop the general military administration link.
  •  Done –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• and convince him "and to convince him", "and tried to convince him" would be clearer.
  •  Done –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• They agreed, though only so as to not alienate Abetz, and signed an agreement this is a bit confusing. What did they agree on before signing the agreement? Did they really agree or just pretend to agree?
  • An alliance, as Abetz wanted; added "They agreed to a pact". –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• president of the Belgian Socialist Party The Belgian Socialist Party was founded in 1945
  •  Fixed –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• Neither Degrelle nor those he met with at this time could come to an agreement shouldn't they come to an agreement with each other?
  • Revised. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:59, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
• Embrace of collaborationism: By the end of 1940 is last sentence of previous paragraph and first sentence of this one.
  • Changed the second instance to "By 1941". –♠Vami_IV†♠ 20:57, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• Undeterred Is this the best word?
  •  Removed –♠Vami_IV†♠ 20:57, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• began subsidizing, appointed members to civil office, and allowed it to freely organize. does this lack a Rex?
  •  Added –♠Vami_IV†♠ 20:57, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• seek Belgians enlistment "seek Belgians enlisting" or perhaps "seek Belgian enlistment"?
  •  Fixed Oops. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 20:57, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• The moderates attacked Rex for being weak? That sounded odd. The only explanation I can think of is that this was because they were francophones and couldn't accept cooperation with the Flemish?
  • Yes; I've changed "weak" to "impotent" to reflect this. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 20:57, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• Likely because it had been ordered to by Berlin?
  •  Added –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:21, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• (General comment: there is quite a bit of passive voice with unknown actors.)
• Walloons were considered an inferior people to the Flemish who did this considering? Possibly better "The Nazis considered Walloons to be inferior to the Flemish" or "Hitler considered" or "Abetz considered" or ...
  •  Done &ndash♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:21, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• Over the rest of 1942, the Legion was reduced to 150 men, and Degrelle was rapidly promoted Did the others die? Leave? The sentence almost implies that the reduction in numbers caused Degrelle's promotion, is that intended? It is perhaps better to split the sentence, as the promotion is more connected to what comes after.
  • Added "by attrition". –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:21, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• Tense in the last sentence of Waffen-SS is off. Should be had risen/had been/had been or "During the war, ... rose/was/was".
  •  Done –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:21, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• Exile in Spain: Was it really the Belgian government who sentenced him to death? And what crime was he found guilty of? (Some context about how collaborators were treated in Belgium after the liberation would probably help the unaware reader here).
  • Yes, and for treason, I imagine. I'll return to Colignon to see if he has specifics. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

  Capital punishment in Belgium tells of more than two hundred collaborators who were executed after 1944, but I have never read anything systematic about the Belgian revenge on collaborators. (I know a little, but only from a comics adaptation of Hergé's biography). —Kusma (talk) 22:14, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

• Legacy: the only leading Nazi or collaborator to escape to safety well, that needs some qualification. Until 1960, this honour probably belonged to Adolf Eichmann (but he didn't live openly). Klaus Barbie is also a contender, or Josef Mengele. Unrepentant free Nazis included various Wehrmacht officers like Otto Ernst Remer. Would you consider Wernher von Braun as a leading Nazi? This section could also do with slightly more precise timings than "after the war".
  •  Removed the highlighted text; I was just reproducing what my sources said. As for precise datings, Conway 1993 is generally allergic to them, especially in the pages cited there (at the very end of the book). Rodríguez 1996 also bemoans a general lack of scholarly interest in Degrelle's post-war years. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:21, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
• Publications: While we're here, I'd like to ask whether you have considered talking about Degrelle's book fr:Tintin mon copain and Degrelle's connections to Hergé (seems like Degrelle actually was the first person to send Hergé any American comics, and even claims to have been the inspiration for Tintin). The French article fr:Léon Degrelle does talk about this quite a bit, and our Hergé article mentions this as well.
  • I didn't want to reproduce a list of Degrelle's work so as to avoid promoting fascism. As the section says, he has a long shadow in the far-right. As for Herge and Tintin, none of the sources I could access spoke of Degrelle's claims about inspiring Tintin. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:21, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
    • Note: I've discontinued the practice of just citing sources used on other-language Wikipedia articles if I can't access and verify them. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 21:39, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

  I don't know enough about his works to have a strong opinion on whether they should be listed here. I would suggest to explore the connection to Hergé, though (they certainly both worked in the same ultra-conservative Catholic publishing house, and knew each other). Perhaps we could ask Hergé expert User:Midnightblueowl for some help here? —Kusma (talk) 21:46, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

  • Links between Hergé and Degrelle are certainly mentioned in biographies of the latter. Perhaps a sentence on Degrelle's relationship with Hergé might be warranted here; although perhaps not more than that. Not a prerequisite for this article becoming a GA, I'd have thought, but something to consider adding. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:20, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

    It is not a prerequisite, but I think it is worth adding (should this go to FA at some point in the future, I would expect it). —Kusma (talk) 10:37, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

    I as well; but again, I think the only source I have access to that mentions the connection is Colignon, and briefly. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 11:24, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

• In August, Jewish community leaders Max Mazín and Alberto Benasuly introduced the Catalan lawyer Jorge Trías Sagnier to Violeta Friedman, a Romanian-born survivor of Auschwitz and Considering the case, Trías realized which case? There's some context and introduction missing. Why do we need these Jewish community leaders? Did Violeta Friedman sue Degrelle?
  • Yes; revised and expanded upon. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 20:17, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
• Further reading: why do you recommend we read this book and why didn't you use it as a source?

I'll leave you with these comments for now and will come back for the lead and perhaps a second pass through. Overall a nice and well-researched article, I've learned quite a bit... —Kusma (talk) 21:12, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

• Lead section:
• Rex contested the 1936 Belgian general election It isn't obvious that "Rex" and "the Rexist party" are the same thing. You could add (Rex) after the first mention of the Rexist party to fix this.
  •  Added –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:08, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• gained him the status of being the model for foreign collaborators simplify. "turned him into a model for foreign collaborators" or something.
  •  Done –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:08, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• then to Spain, where he crash landed in May 1945 maybe add "by plane" to clarify.
  •  Added –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:08, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• Degrelle was stripped of his citizenship the lead makes it sound like this was in 1944, but the body says in 1945.
  • Revised. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:08, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• Second pass of everything else:
• Bouillon, in the province of Luxembourg and either drop the comma or add one after Luxembourg.
  •  Added –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• Doctorat de troisième cycle: as I said, pipe to doctorat or remove link, but don't use a redirect that is only France-related.
  •  Done –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• Journalistic career section: is the Édouard Degrelle here the father or the brother who is mentioned later?
  • The father; I've changed that bit of prose to scotch that confusion. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• Waffen-SS: The brother Edouard Degrelle does not have an accent aigu? After his murder, we have German authorities, including Himmler, who Degrelle wrote to request the retaliatory killing of 100 Belgian civilians,[127] ignored Degrelle which should be simplified: Degrelle wrote to Himmler to request ... The request was ignored by the German authorities, but Rexists ...
  • Indeed, no, no accent. Neither Colignon nor Conway use one for Edouard's name. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

  Fine. Still need to sort the sentence about Himmler. —Kusma (talk) 13:07, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

  Sorted. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 17:12, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

• fleeing then-ongoing Liberation of Belgium fleeing the? fleeing from the?
  •  Fixed –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• Exile in Spain: given control of any Belgian territory hmm, seems the control wasn't there to give? "promised control"?
  • Changed. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• Personal life: section should be with the rest of the biography, so before Legacy.
  •  Done –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• I've asked about the significance of Further Reading.
  • I assume that biography is in #Further reading rather than cited as a source because Brigade Piron (talk) couldn't access it. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 22:45, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
    • Vami_IV is right. It is, as far as I know, the only full-length biography of Degrelle and it got quite favourable reviews. I think we need to include it. —Brigade Piron (talk) 12:16, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

      OK, I'm happy if you have seen positive reviews. I just wanted to make sure this isn't some random pro-Nazi book that was added a million revisions ago. I don't like putting things into "Further reading" unless we actually want to recommend them to the reader. —Kusma (talk) 13:06, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

      • See eg "Bruno Cheyns and his excellent Léon Degrelle: De Führer uit Bouillon (2017)" —Brigade Piron (talk) 17:51, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
• External links: why these? The German newspaper clippings seem mostly redundant with the better secondary sources, and the Belgium WWII source is by Martin Conway and in French, also possibly redundant, but better images.
  •  Removed –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
• The succession box for the SS Division Wallonien is a bit pointless.
  •  Removed I agree. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 23:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I think that's all I have. —Kusma (talk) 21:45, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

@Kusma: How are we looking? –♠Vami_IV†♠ 16:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@Vami IV, one prose issue (Himmler and the 100 Belgian civilians) remains, and the images aren't cleared up yet (one nominated for deletion, and the Rexist flag wasn't correctly tagged last time I checked). Other than that we're done I think. —Kusma (talk) 17:01, 18 October 2021 (UTC)