Talk:Krokodeilos Kladas

Birth and death dates?

Have we got an (approximate) birth date for the guy, to fill in the basic bio information in the lead? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I just saw this -- I haven't been able to find anything better than "about 1424." I'll put it in. Nauplion (talk) 16:09, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Ethnicity

According to the current status of the article(written by User:Alexikoua this person is Greek. There's only one source that he is a Greek as part of the book's index[1]. The source used for this piece of information on the book is a 1481 letter from the Venetian senate calling him grecho[2]. Of course in the middle ages in most cases that term meant a Christian Orthodox.

And what does "albanian" of middle ages mean? References please.--Euzen (talk) 22:09, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

That book is written partially by scholar Kenneth Setton. In another book also partially written by Setton he is called an Albanian[3]. Another work by Kurt W. Treptow, titled The Ottoman Invasion of Italy and the Albanian Rebellion of 1480/1 partially included in the Ukrainian Quarterly, also calls him an Albanian[4].

There's one 1481 letter saying grecho(whatever the one who wrote it meant) and 2 sources saying he is Albanian and yet none of them is included.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:16, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Interesting, one of the sources that calls him an Albanian is also part of the book's index. Athenean (talk) 18:24, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

This source, entitled "15th century Greek people" include Kladas [5] as does the British School of Athens [6] (kinda old, but a reliable source nonetheless). Seems like the filer of this RfC didn't eve bother to conduct a proper literature search. Athenean (talk) 18:29, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

This [[7]] describes him as Maniot hero. Also the argument when Setton says 'Greek' means 'Orthodox Christian' is wrong since he identifies a number of Orthodox people as Albanians.Alexikoua (talk) 18:48, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

He was from Mani Alexikoua and btw since you insist on Mani mani.org(the official website of the region) says Ο Κροκόδειλος (Κορκόδειλος-Κορκόντηλος-Ακροκόνδυλος) Κλαδάς (1425-1490) καταγόταν από τη Χιμάρα της Β. Ηπείρου και ήταν αλβανικής καταγωγής. Ο πατέρας του Θεόδωρος μετανάστευσε μαζί με άλλους Αλβανούς στην Πελοπόννησο όπου βρέθηκε στην υπηρεσία των Παλαιολόγων.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:51, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello! :) 5.206.233.131 (talk) 21:07, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry can you plz use academic material? Also even in case his grand-grand father was Albanian (seems you are lately obsessed in genealogical trees) in lead per wp:mosbio he is Greek. Off course a brief description about his origin can stay in the next paragraph, in case we find the sources of the above site.Alexikoua (talk) 19:02, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Mani.org is an official website and what is quoted is found on Istoria tou Ellinikou Ethnous(so it's rs). Btw the Greek text says that his parents were Albanian not his great-grandparents, so per mosbio there's nothing indicating that he should be labeled as Greek. You can verify both Vakalopoulos and the ekdotiki publication, as they are both online(Vakalopoulos on Anemi and the ekdotiki volumes can be downloaded from various free books websites).--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:09, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Also I doubt about this, the Kladas' family was present in Morea long before the first Albanian reached Berat (at ca. 1350). They are mentioned there in 1290s (read the article plz).Alexikoua (talk) 19:13, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

The "Istoria tou Ellinikou Ethnous" (vol. 15th) (it's 'rs') is in my library and I can confirm that can't see what mani.org claims.Alexikoua (talk) 19:15, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua I'=10 not 15 and Vakalopoulos is on anemi, when you decide to verify all his volumes, althought the 10th ekdotiki volume will be enough. Btw please don't make or deductions and the rate of sources on the issue is 3(Albanian):1(Greek).--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:21, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

My fault I meant 10th, and unfortunately no mani.org stuff.(if you don't believe me check in gbooks [[8]][[9]]) 3:1 ? lol, actually it is 1:3. Can you give Vakalopoulos' link at least?Alexikoua (talk) 19:33, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

1:3? Albanian:

• Treptow
• Setton
• Mani(Vakalopoulos or Ekdotiki)Btw I'll have to download the 200mb volume to verify that it isn't mentioned on ekdotiki because the name is mentioned in that volume [10]

Greek:

• Setton(Btw if you consider as a source supporting the Greek origin Books LLC publications, you should know that that book is wikipedia articles compilation like all their books)--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 21:40, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

The British Archeological School may be a bit old, but is certainly reliable. mani.org is not. Athenean (talk) 21:53, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

vakalopoulos and istoria tou ellinikou ethnous (the chapter is written by Ioannis Hasiotis) dont mention anything about what the Kladaioi were 'by ancestry' as far as i can see(Vakalopoulos mostly relies on Sathas so someone should check S out)..maybe his PLACE of origin can be enough until some good sources can be found eh..?85.72.121.91 (talk) 02:28, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

'Vakalopoulos on Anemi and the ekdotiki volumes can be downloaded from various free books websites' i think you should remove this comment (also mine when you remove yours) for obvious reasons..85.72.121.91 (talk) 02:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your comment and since there are enough sources for him being an Albanian it should at least be mentioned.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:28, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Question from an outsider: why the persistent desire to put an ethnic tag on this person? Obviously, international scholars disagree on his ethnicity. Why don't you go with "Greek^[1][2][3] or Albanian^[1][2][3]" or, even better, without an ethnic description in the lead at all? The current version of the lead sounds unfair to me, in that it unjustifiedly disregards what appears to be a very real point of view, in order to push another one. — Toдor Boжinov — 14:32, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

The fact is that his ancestors were in Morea long before the first waves of Albanian tribes reached the region (ca. one century). In case Zjarri. finds something interesting in Vacalopoulos (since Ekdotike doesn't say something) it would be ok to adopt TB's version. I personally prefer not to mention ethnicities at all, thry weren't that important that time.Alexikoua (talk) 14:46, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

They say he was Albanian not that he was of partially Albanian origin and Alexikoua you insisted on adding that he was a Greek.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:23, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

They? which? Ekdotike doesn't say it in case you find about Vacalopoulos you can give the precise snippet from gbooks.Alexikoua (talk) 17:28, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Treptow and Setton and please don't make or deductions because he was born in 1425 about 30-50 years after Albanian settled the area.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:40, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

As I said his ancestors were in Morea in ca. 1290, no or at all.Alexikoua (talk) 13:57, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)That's a fact you read in this wikipedia article, so please don't make or deductions. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 16:52, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Κατά το διάστημα της Τουρκοκρατίας οι Αλβανοί συμμετείχαν σε όλα τα επαναστατικά κινήματα των Ελλήνων. Ο Πέτρο-Μπουά ο Χωλός (γενάρχης των Γριβαίων), ο Κροκόδειλος Κλαδάς, ο Ράλλης... πολλοί άλλοι Αλβανοί φύλαρχοι During the Ottoman era, Albanians took part in all the rebellions of the Greeks, Peter Bua, Krokodeilos Kladas...and many other Albanian chieftains, written by a byzantinologist.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:43, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

'a byzantinologist'? what are his credentials..?87.202.156.68 (talk) 00:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Just on this one source, an author who in his first sentence claims that the Illyrians were a Greek Doric tribe, and then goes on to trace the supposed alliance of Greeks and Albanians through the centuries from Alexander the Great, along with not a few other inaccuracies or blatant over-generalizations, in what is clearly an opinion piece and not an acedemic dissertation, carries no value as evidence. Even if some of what he says is true, it is not a RS in any way. Now, on Kladas' origins, could we have some sources on the family's origin? Alexi, where did you find that they had come to the Peloponnese as early as the 13th century? Constantine ✍ 00:57, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

'There's one 1481 letter saying grecho(whatever the one whowrote it meant)' on the other hand its worth asking whatever one could have meant with 'albanian' and if 'albanian' had any real meaning at the time among men lying between greek and venetian culture...anyway i also checked sathas (but you should check him out too in case i missed anything, im human) and no dice..so were left with an index to an article written by Halil Inalcik (did Setton being the editor compile the index..? it doesnt seem to mention anything in the various volumes' forewords i checked) and a random googled article that you cant wholly access..we can add Savvidis - pages from the balkan resistance to the ottoman expansion (selides apo tin valkaniki antidrasi stin othomaniki epektasi) who calls Kladas 'greek'..but we can also omit any reference to greek or albanian in the intro since the article can be fine without it87.202.156.68 (talk) 00:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

a more serious question to the editors here...most sources seem to agree that the Kladas were originally from Epirus but some also specifically say Himara..is that accurate?87.202.156.68 (talk) 00:20, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

@Constantine: About his origin, well I saw this [[11]], but unfortunately I can't confirm the sources, perhaps 87.x can give a hand here. I also have to note that this recent cherry picking obsession chossing a tiny number of non-rs material that mentions Kladas as Albanian, doesn't help the discussion at all.Alexikoua (talk) 20:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

You have been using Setton to label this person as a Greek, but Setton also labels him as Albanian so is Setton, whom you have used as a source non-rs? Is Treptow also non-rs?--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)@Alexi: yes, this seems credible enough. I'd be interested to know where his supposed Himariote origin comes from. @ Zjarri: Setton (who is just the general editor, not the actual writer) mentions Kladas as an "Albanian" in an index, but this is mostly a question of context: in the text, he is mentioned only for his service on behalf of Naples in Albania. The source does not really elaborate on his origin, and given that mercenaries from the western Balkans were habitually called albanesi by the Italians, such a brief reference doesn't mean much by itself. We need to use sources that are more detailed and specific, general histories usually make a mess of details and fine distinctions. And again, no snippets please. For all we know, the Ukrainian Quarterly article may be using the History of the Crusades as a source.

The one source where I found some information is Byzantium Between the Ottomans and the Latins: Politics and Society in the Late Empire (N. Necipoglu, CUP 2009), pp. 265-266: "As to the other rebel named by Mazaris, he probably belongs to the family of a Greek magnate who handed over his two sons and surrendered the fortress of Hagios Georgios to Mehmed II in 1460. Sphrantzes identifies this magnate as “Krokondylos,” adding that it would be more appropriate to call him “Krokodeilos.” Hence, it is very likely that the archon who resisted Manuel II in 1415 was the father or grandfather of the Peloponnesian who forty-five years later surrendered Hagios Georgios to the Ottomans. The connection of this family with the fortress can be traced back indeed all the way to the end of the thirteenth century. According to the French version of the Chronicle of the Morea, in 1296 a Greek silk merchant from Great Arachova called “Corcondille” captured Hagios Georgios with the help of his son-in-law Aninos, who was the storekeeper of the fortress. At that date the fortress was under the control of Florent of Hainault, the Latin Prince of Achaia (r. 1289–97). In order to accomplish this deed, besides the cooperation of his son-in-law, Corcondille relied on a band of one hundred Turkish mercenaries under the command of a Greek general called Leo Mauropapas. Although the Chronicle states that Corcondille intended to give the fortress to the Byzantine Emperor, the fact that in 1460 it was in the hands of one of his descendants suggests that either he never gave it to the Emperor, or that the Emperor rewarded his undertaking by allowing him to keep Hagios Georgios. Later, in 1375, some members of the same family donated to the monastery of Brontochion in Mistra several fields situated in the village of Terkova, a fact which reveals other holdings in the possession of this archontic family." And in page 267 a note: "For another branch of the Krokondylos family which intermarried with the Kladades and fought against the Ottomans under Venetian service in the 1460s, see Sathas, Documents, vol. v, pp. 31–2 (Nov. 28, 1465), 33 (Dec. 20, 1465). These people were “Pifani Concordili Clada primarii nobilis Amoree, domini castri Verdogne in Brachio Maine,” his four brothers, and his nephew Thomas. A Kladas Corcondile, who instigated a rebellion against the Ottomans in 1480 despite the objection of his Venetian overlords, is unlikely to be the same person as the commander of Hagios Georgios in 1460, 1460, as has been proposed in PLP" (the PLP is the Prosopographisches lexikon der Paläologenzeit, I'll check it out tomorrow). This opens a few interesting questions on Kladas' identity... Constantine ✍ 21:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

@Cplakidas the UQ text is written by Treptow and is part of his work titled The Albanian rebellion of 1480/81.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 21:34, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I know, but Treptow is a specialist on Romanian history, so his statements have to be checked, and we still don't show where he got his reference for his statement (the "101" at the end of the sentence). To make my point above clear(er), I am currently reading S. Bowman's The Agony of Greek Jews, 1940-1945, which is very well researched on its core subject, but contains a number of inaccuracies on the peripheral issues, usually those mentioned in passing (e.g. stating that Thessaloniki was seized by the Serbs and Bulgarians during the Middle Ages). The book is a good, reliable source on the core issue, the Jews of Greece, but nothing else besides. In other words, only trust sources that directly examine an issue, not the ones that simply mention it. From the above text, it seems clear that if we accept Kladas' identity with the Korkondylos of Hagios Georgios, he was Greek or at any rate hellenized/Byzantinized enough so as there to be no difference. If not, then we can only guess. Constantine ✍ 00:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

@Cplakidas the main subject is the Albanian rebellion of 1480 in which Klada was a participant.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 00:27, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

@Constantine: Unfortunately I can't find any info. that links Kladas' ancestors with Himara.Alexikoua (talk) 23:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

the ip user (I) is NOT alexikoua BTW..Himara is mentioned by Savvidis and he relies mostly on Vakalopoulos and Sathas (Vakalopoulos himself relies mostly on Sathas who read the primary sources byzantine and western..) but i havent checked Savvidis' other sources and Sathas only mentions 'epirus'87.202.156.68 (talk) 07:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment from an uninvolved editor

Hello; I've just dropped in from WP:RfC to offer a comment. First of all, thanks for staying civil and polite, and sticking to the sources - I think that the best path out of a dispute goes in that direction. Would you consider a slight change to the article structure to avoid the problem? Perhaps we could simply remove the controversial ethnic/national label from the lede, so it says something like this:

Krokodeilos Kladas (Greek: Κροκόδειλος Κλαδάς), variously also Krokondeilos or Korkondelos, born about 1425, was a military leader in the Morea (medieval Peloponnese) in the latter 15th century.

And then maybe add one or two sentences discussing his background in more detail - based on the sources you have found - further down the article. Would that be an acceptable compromise? bobrayner (talk) 02:12, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I also think it better to move this to "Krokondylos", since "Krokodeilos" was more of a derogatory nickname. Plus, it must be made clear that his identity with the Krokondylos of 1460 is by no means certain (even the PLP contains a question-mark next to this statement). Constantine ✍ 13:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Sure this lead is ok.Alexikoua (talk) 14:35, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

This lead is ok and the issue of ethnicity can be addressed below. Btw another rs for ethnicity is Arnavut lider Klada'nın girişimleri(Initiatives of the Albanian leader Klada), so both possibilities should be added. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:49, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Stable version

[Discussion entry submitted upon request by Bobrayner.]

Purpose of "Stable Version" (including "Patches") was to augment the quality of this entry. Bobrayner removed a minor portion of the lead that was directly affiliated with the impartial citations recently implemented. I assumed that his actions were in good faith, but reinserted the internal link since the "compromise/consensus" appeared to have nothing to do with improving the overall quality of the entry. Even if the "compromise/consensus" is only addressed towards "resolving" the issue of Kladas's identity, it has so far accomplished nothing in terms of factual elucidation. In any case, I don't really care about "warring" with anyone and I have no stake in the result of the aforementioned "debate".

Thank you and Happy Holidays.

P.S. For the record, it is complimentary to label a humble inspector's quality contributions as "mechanical".

[This statement is explicitly made for the sake of the record and not for the sake of debate.] No. 108 (talk) 23:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm still perplexed by your vocabulary. The top of your comment suggests that you might discuss potential improvements to the article. The bottom suggests that you won't. Could you clarify, please?

No doubt you earnestly believe that you have the Truth, but there are other people who hold a contradictory Truth. The best way to solve this is to sit down and discuss, work towards consensus, and maybe make compromises. Abandoning those when they conflict with your personal opinion is no way to improve article quality or resolve disagreements.

Is you have any evidence that COIs are a problem, please explain and maybe we can try to resolve that too. bobrayner (talk) 13:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Further changes?

Since there are a lot of discussions, have you guys established a stable and less-disputable version? I see there is a later edit from an unsigned editor, 21:51, 18 March 2013‎ 108.5.45.22 which invalidates all the discussions done here and creates the stage for running them from start. Mondiad (talk) 06:23, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Recent edits

I believe we all ought to be more careful with sources in general, but especially in articles that will with certainty create disagreement. On the 15th, two sources were added to support an Albanian background for Krokodeilos Kladas. One is by Kristo Frashëri, who is counted among Albanian nationalist historians; but that is not the main issue with this source. The rationale behind his conclusion is flawed. Here is the relevant quote:

Ai ishte pinjoll i Kladëve ose i Kladajve, një bashkësi arvanite e Koronës. Për përkatësinë shqiptare të bashkësisë së Kladajve po sjellim këtu një dëshmi dokumentare. Ajo vjen nga një letër e një funksionari venedikas që banonte në trevën e Koronës, drejtuar më 15 shkurt 1482 dogjit të Venedikut. Sipas tij, vojvoda i sanxhakbeut turk të kësaj treve ishte me kombësi shqiptare (che he de natione albanese) dhe farefis i Buzikejve të këtushëm, pjesëtarë të bashkësisë (setta) së Kladajve, pra kuptohet se edhe Kladët i përkisnin kombësisë shqiptare. Pastaj shton se ky vojvodë sëbashku me një funksionar tjetër të këtij sanxhaku – një subash, gjithashtu me kombësi shqiptare (etiam de natione albanese), qenë ngarkuar prej sanxhakbeut që të ndërmjetësonin për t’i pajtuar me të dhe të sillnin nën bindjen e tij kryengritësit Meksi Buziki (Mexa Busichi) kryetar i bashkësisë së Kladajve (capo de la setta de i Cladioti), vëllezërit e tij Pjetër Buziki, Duma Buziki si dhe Zagan Karatollën me Marin Klimentin, gjithashtu nga bashkësia e Kladajve.

He seems to be claiming that according to one Venetian source, a voivode of the local Sanjak-bey was Albanian, and a relative of the Bozikis family. He continues by saying that one of the Bozikis' family members, was Mexas Bozikis, who is described as leader of the Kladas community, and according to him, this means that Krokodeilos Kladas was also Albanian. Specifically, this was used in the article to describe Krokodeilos as a member of an Albanian tribe or tribal community. First of all, Mexas Bozikis wasn't a relative of Krokodeilos Kladas, but one of his allies, who came from Nafplio as a stratioti captain along with Theodore Bua, to assist Kladas; i added this in the article, in order to avoid confusion. Furthermore, the original phrase (capo de la setta de i Cladioti) uses "setta", which doesn't translate as tribe or tribal community, but as "sect", and is obviously a reference to Kladas' group of insurgents, of whom Mexas Bozikis was in fact one of the captains; see the related term settatore which means "partisan". Not to mention that we have a Venetian source from the same period (November 5th 1480), that describes Kladas directly as Greek:

Sapiate come el mio sclavo Soleiman, sangiacbei dela Morea, me ha denotato per una sua lettera che uno nominato Clada greco, ... – Korre (2018): pp. 524-525

The second source is by Kurt Treptow. Treptow specializes in Romanian history, and his reference is in passing; also, see what Maleschreiber wrote some months ago, referring specifically to the case of Krokodeilos Kladas (diff), which i also agree with.

Since we have a far more recent source that is based on considerably more extensive research on the family and its background, i chose to remove all references to Greek and Albanian from the lede, "Biography", and Categories sections. Also, i used Peloponnesian in the lede, as something more neutral. It turns out that the family was most likely of Turcopole ultimate origin, and integrated in the Byzantine society of the Morean Despotate. I added this under the "Family" section. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:37, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

There were 3 sources that support an Albanian origin actually. In any case, I do not disagree with your proposal as far as the source you refer to is a recent one that apparently has done more reasearch than the others on his background. Does a Turcopole origin mean that his ancestors came from Anatoalia or does it mean his ancestors came from Ottoman territories? Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:03, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

The author actually uses "Ottoman ultimate origin" early in her work, but that is obviously a misnomer, as she elaborates later with more details. In summary, she traced the family back to a group, composed of the descendants and soldiers of Kaykaus II (sultan of the Sultanate of Rum who was deposed in 1262), who acted as mercenaries (turcopoles) in the troops of Michael VIII and Andronikos II Palaiologos. Specifically, it came to the Peloponnese at the beginning of 1263 as part of the army of sebastokrator Constantine Palaiologos (half-brother of Michael VIII), in order to face the Franks (Principality of Achaea) in the war of 1263-1264. After the war, it received lands and was fully integrated in the Byzantine society of the Morean Despotate, through alliances and marriages made with local archontes, to the point that it managed to gain possession of extensive pieces of land with paroikoi settled there. Precisely because of the power it had amassed, we see its members as privileged interlocutors of the Venetians, after the fall of the Despotate to the Ottomans. This information can also be included in the article as additional details. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:21, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@Demetrios1993: thank you for your clarification and your addition of relevant content to the article. The context and meaning of a possible Turcopole ancestry for Kladas is now clearer. The Turcopole article itself is not much helpful, and any work to improve it would be much welcome. I wish a happy and prosperous New Year for you and your dear ones, btw. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:20, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991: Happy New Year to you as well. Wishing you and your loved ones health and prosperity. Demetrios1993 (talk) 00:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, much appreciated. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:55, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Are you Albanian? 5.206.233.131 (talk) 21:06, 3 April 2023 (UTC)