Talk:Koniuchy massacre/Archive 1

Initial talks

Poorly marked up and needs a serious dose of NPOV from knowledgeable contributor. Ortolan88

The title itself is NPOV. -- Zoe

Why? Wehave massacre in Jedwabne and nobody never complained about it. szopen. There was massacre, so why calling it massacre is NPOV?

Since there are no arguments questioning the article I am going to remove NPOV statemant. Cautious 17:11, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Maybe Massacre in Jedwabne needs work too. Both of these articles are poorly marked up and need copy editing and both of them have an appearance of advocacy or unsettled issues. I don't know much about the terrible happenings on the eastern front in World War II, but I do know there were killings by partisan groups as well as by Russian and German soldiers and I also know that partisan groups often were organized by ethnic group. And, I am pretty sure that someone with good knowledge and a firm grip on the idea of NPOV could improve both these articles. Ortolan88

Removed edits

Ghirlandajo, why have you removed my edits again ? I'm particularly interested why this edit was removed ? --Lysy ^(talk) 16:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Because you removed my yesterday's edits without any explanation. You know that such behaviour is good only for spawning revert wars, and that's probably your intention when you make such outrageous edits as this one. Until you grow up and learn to edit properly, such edits will be promptly removed. Also, please stop adding Polish links and find some links in other languages, preferrably English, per my previous request. Otherwise, I'll have to remove your Polish links on the basis of Wikipedia:Links. I hope that you don't want to meet the New Year in pointless revert wars. --Ghirla | talk 16:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

All right, I'm afraid your response only confirms that you're reverting without checking the contents first only for the sake of revert warring. Now, since you have chaged "soviet partisans" into "Lithuanian and Jewish partisans", as if their ethnic origin was important, I'm going to add missing information about Russians among them and hope you will not remove it. By the way, all the sources mention only Jewish and Russian partisans in these units. Where did you get the information about Lithuanians from ? --Lysy ^(talk) 17:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Soviet partisans

Another question that I have is why are you removing all the references to the fact that the attackers were Soviet partisans ? --Lysy ^(talk) 17:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Because I haven't seen a single English-language ref that there were Russian partisans near Vilnius. How would they get there, I'd like to know. Seems like a typical Polish nationalist mythology. I'll revert until the reputable sources are provided. --Ghirla | talk 17:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, the article has its references, it's enough to check them instead of reverting my edits, e.g. this one is in English and in the first sentence mentions that these were soviet partisans. On the other hand, if we admit Russian language sources in other articles, then what is wrong with Polish ? If you cannot read Polish and do not trust me, then you can always ask someone else to verify it for you. Not all the topics of Eastern Europe are adequately covered by English language literature, I'm sure you know this. --Lysy ^(talk) 18:26, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Now, that we have this explained, can you undo your revert, please ? --Lysy ^(talk) 18:40, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

3RR

BTW, Ghirlandajo, are you aware that with these reverts: [1], [2], [3], [4] you are over your daily revert threshold again. It's really more productive to discuss as above than fight so desperately. You are asking me to "do something more productive", yet you're reverting dozens of my edits without even bothering to check them. Maybe you could take a look as this recent version of mine as explain what was wrong there ? --Lysy ^(talk) 18:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits

I have introduced several edits to the article today. The rationale is explained in respecive edit summaries. Please discuss here first if something bother you instead of reverting all of the edits without examining them again. --Lysy ^(talk) 21:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Renamed ?

I see the article was moved to Koniuchy Incident. Was there any consensus to rename it ? --Lysy ^(talk) 20:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I have moved it back. As this rename obviously is controversial, please use WP:RM if you want to move it to another name. --Lysy ^(talk) 00:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

Summary

User:Ghirlandajo insists on renaming the article into "Koniuchy Incident". Since he is reluctant to discuss it, I've started a WP:RM for him and hope the consensus will be reached either to move the article or to keep the original name. --Lysy ^(talk) 13:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

No consensus to move, the article was removed from WP:RM. --Lysy ^(talk) 20:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support. Killings of several dozen people by forest bandits under obscure circumstances is hardly a massacre. --Ghirla | talk 13:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC) (the rest of Ghirla's discussion moved to the #Discussion subsection below, --Lysy ^(talk))
• Support. Should be incident, not massacre. KNewman 15:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. It is known as "Koniuchy massacre". "Incident" is only Ghirlandajo's invention here. Google has over 500 hits for "Koniuchy massacre" and no hit for "Koniuchy incident". --Lysy ^(talk) 15:56, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lysy--SylwiaS | talk 16:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
• Support. Maybe incident as a descriptive name cannot be so widespread, but massacre is a POV term and should be used only in exceptional cases of the udoubted and large scale mass-killings. --Irpen 21:08, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
• Opposee-Killing aimed at destruction of whole village, including defencless women and children fills the criteria of massacre. --Molobo 23:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose, based on WP's explanations of Mass murder and Massacre. Olessi 00:04, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose I have never heard of this, but reading the article now about what happened, it sounds preposterous (and insulting to the memory of the victims) to call this a mere "incident". Gryffindor 02:10, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lysy, Molobo, and Olessi. Appleseed (Talk) 02:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lysy et al. Really, those 'rewrite history by changing name' attempts are kind of silly.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 03:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

• Unfortunately, the Polish editors have an annoying tendency to call every group execution of ethnic Poles a "massacre". This inflammatory term caused countless edit wars in the past, and will cause in the future. I'm not the first to point out that the term is highly charged with POV; read the comments above. Khatyn in Belarus was a real massacre, and we still don't have an article on this. P.S. What the heck its name in Lithuanian, Belarusian, Russian is? I can't find any refs to this occurrence outside this wikipedia. --Ghirla | talk 13:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

  Murdering civilians can hardly be called an execution. I also do not appreciate the nationalistic flavour of your comment ("the Polish editors have an annoying tendency").

  To P.S.: I have added the Lithuanian name to the article, you have just removed it and now you're asking what is the Lithuanian name :-) ? Have you actually read my edits before reverting them ? --Lysy ^(talk) 13:49, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

• Listing prematurely removed from WP:RM is restored until we get some statistically significant sampling to determine an outcome. This has nothing to do with the holidays. Whoever closed the vote prematurely simply haven't read the WP:RM policy which calls for a standard minimum 5 days voting with possible extentions if necessary to determine consensus.

  Quote: Requested moves may be implemented if there is a Wikipedia community consensus (generally 60% or more) supporting the moving of an article after five (5) days under discussion on the talk page of the article to be moved, or earlier at the discretion of an administrator. The time for discussion may be extended if a consensus has not emerged.

--Irpen 21:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

To boldfacing in the quote above by Lysy, please note that "or earlier" is related to "moves may be implemented". That is moves can be made swiftly if there is enough evidence to determine the consensus and not to close the voting for the lack of it. --Irpen 22:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was you who said above: policy which calls for a standard minimum 5 days voting, and now you're saying that the policy is related to "moves may be implemented". So what is it related to, eventually ? --Lysy ^(talk) 22:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't get the question. But to rephrase your own message you left at my talk, are you eager to close the vote because you prefer the current name? --Irpen 22:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

All right, what I meant was that in one sentence you call the policy to support your reopening the closed vote, and in the next sentence you explain, that the same policy does not refer to voting but only to implementation of the article move instead. This seems a little schizophrenic, therefore I've asked you to explain. --Lysy ^(talk) 22:30, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your complements and they evidently don't need a response. As for the argument itself, the policy issue is formulated at the 3-rd paragraph of the WP:RM page. If you and I read it differently because I am a "little schizophrenic", let's wait and see how others see the issue. I don't want to repeat what's already said and don't want to respond to the personal insult. Do you insist on the continued debate on the closure? If not, please turn to the issue itslef. --Irpen 22:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I certainly did not intend to insult you. I somehow hoped you'd explain your rationale, but since you're obviously evading this, I'm happy not to continue this issue any more. I'd like to encourage you to address the issues I've bulleted below, instead. --Lysy ^(talk) 22:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not sure why "massacre" would be seen as an "inflammatory term" ? It simply means mass killing of civilians or POWs. Murdering a village at night seems to perfectly match the term. What is wrong with this name ? --Lysy ^(talk) 13:55, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

• Dear Lysy! You were so fast in closing the Koniuchy massacre voting that it's not even funny. Please, keep in mind that this renaming issue will continue despite this whole no-consensus farse of yours. Sometimes voting takes weeks on certain issues, you should know better than that. It was very convenient to close the voting knowing that there is a 10-day holiday in Russia right now and there's no one here to cast their votes :). Try to avoid doing things like this in the future. KNewman 19:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
  1. It was not me, who closed the vote. Check this edit.
  2. I don't see what holiday is Russia would have to do with this vote. Koniuchy is not in Russia, is it ? --Lysy ^(talk) 20:24, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• It's not for us to abitrarily invent new names for this event. It is known as "Koniuchy massacre", not a single source mantions it as "Koniuchy incident" and this is not a place for original research on established names. Period. --Lysy ^(talk) 21:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• There are also numerous examples of massacres involving much smaller numbers of victims. Consult the list of massacres. --Lysy ^(talk) 21:48, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Article not moved. —Nightstallion (?) 15:25, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Recent changes

1-I fail to see what relation is Khatyn to Koniuchy ? Both are different cases unraleted to each other in terms of who comitted the atrocity and where it happened etc. They were lots of massacres during this time Khatyn doesn't seem connected to this one in any way. The wordign also misleads by saying "one of these villages" after it says that villages were destroyed by SS-while Koniuchy were destroyed by Soviets not SS, so they can't be said to be "one of those villages".

2-According to IPN they weren't Lithunian members but Russian ones [5] the records of the investigation was added an authenticated copy of a situational secret report prepared by Operational Division of the Wermacht Command Ostland prepared on February 5, 1944 in Riga. From the content of the report it results that there appeared in Koniuchy "a medium size group of Jews and Russians" ... "36 inhabitants were shot, 14 were wounded. The locality was turned into mostly charred ruins." the inhabitants of Koniuchy, in relating the details of the raid, used interchangeably the descriptors Jews and "Ruskies."

3The fact of this "massacre" has not been recognized by any government except the Polish. I think this fits OR and is in fact irrelevant as Poland conducts its own research into this. Is there any statement of any government that denies it took place ? Otherwise it seems simply POV pushing especially seen in writing the massacer in "massacre".

4. It is a fact that partisans were of different ethnic group and they should be named but they were "Soviet Partisants". --Molobo 21:15, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if the introduction that many villages were burnt to the ground is necessary. The text should deal with this specific massacre not with other massacres. I suggest removing the whole introduction. I also think that partizans can be calles "Soviet", because that was the only thing they had in common. Definitely they cannot be called "Lithuanian", otherwise they could be confused with Lithuanian nationalists. Jasra 22:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The introduction seems to repeat a Soviet propaganda attempt to conceal Katyn Massacre, see here: https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art6.html Then, in 1969, Moscow did something strange that many believe was further calculated to confuse the issue further: it chose a small village named Khatyn as the cite for Belorussia's national war memorial. There was no apparent reason for the selection. Khatyn was one of 9,200 Belorussian villages the Germans had destroyed and one of more than a hundred where they had killed civilians in retaliation for partisan attacks. In Latin transliteration, however, Katyn and Khatyn look and sound alike, though they are spelled and pronounced quite differently in Russian and Belorussian. When President Nixon visited the USSR in July 1974, he toured the Khatyn memorial at his hosts' insistence. Sensing that the Soviets were exploiting the visit for propaganda purposes, The New York Times headlined its coverage of the tour: "Nixon Sees Khatyn, a Soviet Memorial, Not Katyn Forest." (The Times probably got it right. During the Vietnam war, the Soviets frequently took visiting US peace activists to Khatyn.) --Molobo 23:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to ask the involved parties to talk here instead of engaging in the revert war.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 03:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

OK. So what shall be done with the introduction. The introduction:

During World War II, thousands of villages in Russia and other Eastern European countries were burned to the ground and their inhabitants slaughtered. Khatyn, not to be confused with the Katyn Massacre murder of Polish officers, by the NKVD, which is probably the most famous such event with a similar name. does not contain the definition.

My proposal is:

One of many massacres taking place during the World War II. The Koniuchy massacre was carried out on the inhabitants of the village with the same name

Of course maybe the language should be improved (inflicted - intead of carried out?).

I do not think there is any good reason to mention Khatyn or Katyn in this place, but if someone considers it absolutely necessary it should be put at the end of the article rather than at the beginning. Jasra 13:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I think we can safely deleted the intro-the source I provided shows that there is heavy involvment of Soviet authorities to present Khatyn as significant while in fact it wasn't anything out of ordinary. The reasons for this are considered suscpicious. Also the village has nothing to do with Koniuchy. It seems like attempt of POV pushing of reader towards another unconnected massacre. --Molobo 17:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Molobo, I see again that you apply different standards when the victims were non-Poles. " there is heavy involvment of Soviet authorities to present Khatyn as significant while in fact it wasn't anything out of ordinary" is an extremely insensitive and horrific remark on your part. "Ordinrary"? I am saddened that the Polish community doesn't deal with such behavior of yours despite my repeated calls. Perhaps, some find comfort in using you as a loose cannon to advance some agenda. I hope not and this is just lack of oversight. Initially, I couldn't even beleive what I was reading was really written by a person from a country that had its share of suffering from the Nazi rule and a huge one. --Irpen 19:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I am very sorry that I touched your delicate nerves but nobody denies such massacres but they are unconnected to each other and there is no reason here to bring another unrelated event to this article. As to ordinary, yes Khatyn was one of thousands of villages destroyed by German forces in WW2. An article on it is fine but I don't see in what special way it connects to Koniuch, different killers, different issue. I think you are overreacting. --Molobo 20:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC) Molobo, I see again that you apply different standards when the victims were non-Poles. Am I trying to delete Khatyn article or even writing something in it ? No. But here is an article about Koniuchy not Khatyn. --Molobo 20:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe Molobo's behaviour may be classified as a sample of Holocaust Denial. I don't think the wikicommunity should tolerate such a severe trolling. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 19:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Your rational and objective comments are as always welcomed Ghirla :) --Molobo 20:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The name

Note please that the village was in the Lithuanian Territory of Ostland Reichkomisariat at the time of the massacre, not Poland as Molobo had declared in a commentary to his previous edit. In the Baltic States (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia; as well probably Belarus as it was also in the Ostland) during the nazi rule the German names were used for major cities (where German names existed) and local names were used as official for all the smaller towns and villages, depending on in which territory they were. Thus, the official name was Kaniūkai (or, without diacritics Kaniukai, as the Germans does not use such diacrtitics). I checked some historical maps - the town was part of the Lithuanian SSR in 1940-1941 as well and a part of the Republic of Lithuania prior to its annexation into the Soviet Union. Thus, I am correcting some things in the article. I am not going to rename the article however as it seems that "Koniuchy massacre" gets somewhat more hits on google than does "Kaniukai massacre". As for the ethnicity of the partisans, Russians and (to a smaller extent) Jews made the bulk of them, but there most likely were Belarusians and Poles as well (information I have states Russians, Jews and some Poles as well). In general, in this particular area these were the nationalities that made the majority in perhaps all Soviet partisan units as well. I don't have great sources right now however so I am not correcting that for now. Similarly, I would like to note that English language and the standart of the article is bellow the Wikipedia standards, I hope someone who knows more about the subject will improve it. Burann 16:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Population

All Polish sources claim this was Polish village. E.g few villagers fought in the ranks of AK according to memories of

Tadeusz Truszkowski ps. "Sztremer" commander of V batalionu 77 p.p. AK

The names of the victims: 1. Bandalewicz Stanisław ok. 45 lat 2.Bandalewicz Józef 54 lata . 3. Bandalewiczowa Stefania ok. 48 lat 4. Bandalewicz Mieczysław 9 lat 5. Bandalewicz Zygmunt 8 lat 6. Bobin Antoni ok. 20 lat 7.Bobinowa Wiktoria ok.45 lat 8. Bobin Józef ok. 50 lat 9. Bobin Marian 16 lat 10.Bobinówna Jadwiga ok. 10 lat 11.Bogdan Edward ok. 35 lat 12.Jankowska Stanisława 13.Jankowski Stanisław 14.Łaszakiewicz Józefa 15.Łaszakiewiczówna Genowefa 16.Łaszakiewiczówna Janina 17.Łaszakiewiczówna Anna 18.Marcinkiewicz Wincenty ok. 63 lat 19.Marcinkiewiczowa N. (sparaliżowana, spaliła się) 20.Molis Stanisław ok. 30 lat 21.Molisowa N. ok. 30 lat 22.Molisówna N. ok. 1,5 roku 23.Pilżys Kazimierz 24.Pilżysowa N. 25.Pilżysówna Gienia 26.Pilżysówna Teresa 27.Parwicka Urszula ok. 50 lat 28.Parwicki Józef lat 25 29.Rouba Michał 30.Tubin Iwaśka (?)ok. 45 lat 31.Tubin Jan ok. 30 lat 32.Tubinówna Marysia lat około 4 33.Wojsznis Ignacy ok. 35 lat 34.Wojtkiewicz Zofia ok. 40 lat 35.Woronisowa Anna 40 lat 36.Woronis Marian 15 lat 37.Woronisówna Walentyna 20 lat 38. Ściepura N. - krawiec z miejscowości Mikonty.

In Polish links I could find the info that Poles were 80% of population of the village. What's more, the memories of the villagers (e.g Stanislawa Woronis, Jozef Bandalewicz) are in Polish. Edward Tubin, one of the villagers, even said that all villagers were Polish and around there were only Polish villages:

Kolejny świadek Edward Tubin, wówczas 13-letni mieszkaniec wsi (obecnie zamieszkały w Kanadzie), w wywiadzie udzielonym A. Kumorowi (w maju 2001 r.)   
wspomniał:
"A.K.: Koniuchy należały do Polski przed wojną, czy to była całkiem polska wieś?
E.T.: Polska wieś, wszyscy byli Polacy, żadnego tam nie było jakiegoś Ruskiego, nikogo tam nie było innego. Tam dookoła nas wszystkie wsie to byli  
Polacy. (...)" 

Szopen 14:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, you are right, I was confused by similar fate of another village - Bakaloriskes, which was Lithuanian inhabited. Sigitas 14:40, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

You do seem to play fast and loose with the facts. Apparently there was no Jewish partisan named Jacob Penner. The correct reference is probably to the partisan commander Yaakov Prener.

Poor and not-wikipedian article

This article is totally to re-write as it is extremely POV. Statements like Many Russian sources try to minimize the significance of this crime by stating that during World War II, thousands of villages in Russia and other Eastern European countries were burned to the ground and their inhabitants slaughtered. By doing so, they want to remove the uniqueness of this horrible crime and bury it in the general mayhem and killing of the eastern front. In Poland and Lithuania, the Koniuchy massacre is treated as one of the many examples of communist crimes against humanity. can't find place on Wikipedia. (Bagiddo 00:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC))

To correct all that kind of stuff you would have to go through every article dealing with any person, place or event from any territory that has been forcibly occupied over the last several millennia, and any person, dead or alive, who is in the least bit controversial. I am doing my best to help out, but I don't want to try to edit this one because I am not Polish, Lithuanian, Russian, Jewish or Belarussian and thus don't understand the mixture of sensitivities involved. Furthermore no-one remains to stick up for the partisans involved or is interested in putting across the viewpoint of the USSR, so articles like these are probably best left as semi-POV. Lstanley1979 (talk) 22:05, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The article reads like run-of-the-mill Polish national martyrology, not encyclopedic. The English is atrocious. There is no evidence to support the event even happened. IPN appears as an acronym before it is named, and the links to this organization shows their investigation into the "massacre" was carried out by press release (it really says that) and deposing former Polish Home Army partisans living in Canada. Again, none of this possibly semi-valid information is included. The link in the reference section to the Lithuanian article by Zizas is even more interesting. The article says Kaniukai was a Lithuanian village with a small number of Poles as well. The surnames in this article are Lithuanian (or Lithuanianized). It says the initial police reports by the Lithuanian officials called to the scene claim the village was attacked by Russians, Jews and Poles. An expedition to take revenge in a Polish village nearby never came off because cooler heads prevailed, the article says. It also mentions that the village was mentioned in memoirs by at least a few Jewish partisans who are presumably now dead and were never published in English. That is the best evidence so far that Jewish partisans were even involved, the wiki entry fails to establish that at all. As far as calling it a massacre, the Lithuanian article says Lithuanian police reports show a history of armed conflict between this village and the partisans in Rudniki Forest. The Jewish partisans cited in the Lithuanian article claim these villagers ambushed and attacked them repeatedly. The Lithuanian article surveys contemporary press reports and sources and puts the figure of those killed between 30 and 35. Additionally, it gives reports that one Soviet partisan was killed. The Soviet partisans called it a Nazi village and claimed to have killed at least two Lithuanian auxilliary police there. Another thing: the village was located inside the post-World War I borders of the Republic of Lithuania but was part of the territory claimed and occupied by Poland until 1940, when Stalin handed it back to Lithuania. The Nazis in Lithuania later annexed a portion of Belarusian territory in the region to Lithuania. The borders were readjusted after WWII in Belarus's favor within the Soviet Union but the village still seems to be just inside the Lithuanian border. Lida is not. Eisiskes (Eyshishok) is mentioned in the Lithuanian article as significant in the story, a town almost completely Jewish and completely murdered by Nazis and Lithuanians.

If the article in its present form can't be improved by the hotheads watching it, I think it should be deleted as hearsay and ethnic lambast. At least two of the links in references are broken as well. 78.60.98.100 (talk) 19:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The German article quotes original reports. Xx236 (talk) 08:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Small village, not a town

English language sources ignore elementary data. the town had organized an armed group to fight the partisans - civilians in the region were robbed by several partizan units, so they had to defend themselves, certainly not fighting the partizans outside the village with few obsolete guns, if any. Xx236 (talk) 12:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

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