Talk:Khatumo State

SSC

ssc regions of somalia is where the darwith anti-colonial movements emerged and its historic capital where the taleh. currently its the temporary capital city of khatumo state of somalia. this state did not bleive the secessionist theocracy of somaliland, while it was under the british protectorate during colonialism. khatumo state of somalia has numerous population of livestock, water lakes and the NOGAL patrol is enriched throughout its regions.

SSC is currently in open conflict with Puntland. An update of both current events and analysis is required. HOA Monitor (talk) 01:25, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

An objective assessment of the Khatumo State's political support and territorial control is required here. HOA Monitor (talk) 01:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

SSC does not exist as a political movement since its leader Saleban "Haglatosiye" joined the Somaliland cabinet. However if you are mistaking it with Khatumo then it's not correct either because itself is now split with one of its 3 presidents joining forces with Puntland.<ref>"Somaliland: Halgatosiye Assumes His Rightful Place in the Cabinet". Archived from the original on 27 September 2013. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)</ref><ref>"Somalia: Puntland troops clash with militia in Taleh, 8 killed". Archived from the original on 4 December 2013. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)</ref> It would then be correct to say that a segment of Khatumo is in conflict with Puntland. 26oo (talk) 02:10, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Khatumo State name in somali language

In article: Maamul Goboleedka Khaatumo ee Soomaaliya

But in document from [1] Khatumo is named Dawlad Goboleedka Khaatumo ee Soomaaliya. Where is true? --Nicolay Sidorov (talk) 09:50, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

They're both used, but they mean slightly different things. Maamul means "Administration", and Dawlad means "State". Middayexpress (talk) 15:00, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Somaliland forces advance on Taleh during Khatumo conference

Source: [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vf500 (talk • contribs) 19:20, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and they pulled out a few days later [3]. Middayexpress (talk) 21:20, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

and now? http://sabahionline.com/en_GB/articles/hoa/articles/newsbriefs/2014/06/13/newsbrief-03

not only that Somaliland just captured Saxxdeer and the president of Khatumoo state is nowhere in Sool he run to Ethiopia's village of Origoo

http://kalsooni.com/?p=6552

http://www.raxanreeb.com/2014/08/somalia-khatumo-leader-says-sool-and-sanaag-regions-will-never-accept-to-be-occupied-by-somaliland/ I think its safe to say that Khatumo state of Somalia is finished — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.164.188.227 (talk) 15:58, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

These movements change by the day. Somaliland troops will likely pull out shortly, as there is domestic and international pressure for them to do so. The Somali federal government, United States Representative for Somalia James P. McAnulty, UN Special Representative for Somalia Nicholas Kay and European Union Ambassador Michele Cervone d’Urso have all called for Somaliland to immediately withdraw its forces from Saaxdheer: http://www.jowhar.com/u-s-special-r-for-somalia-unsr-of-the-secretary-g-for-somalia-and-eu-amb-to-somalia-appeal-for-all-armed-forces-to-withdraw-from-saaxdheer-sool-region/ Middayexpress (talk) 16:14, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

is that what your defense is based upon? read this http://somalilandpress.com/somaliland-us-un-eu-offices-for-somalia-should-keep-off-our-internal-affairs-53647

Somaliland stated clearly it will not withdrow from Sahdeer. Taleh was under the control pf Somaliland for two and half months now. What makes you think they will just handle it to Ali Khalif who was just kicked out of his own land? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.164.189.43 (talk) 17:27, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Partisan blogs like the one above aren't reliable sources per WP:SPS and WP:NOTADVOCATE. That said, the jowhar link is relaying an official joint press statement from the United States Representative for Somalia James P. McAnulty, UN Special Representative for Somalia Nicholas Kay and European Union Ambassador Michele Cervone d'Urso. These officials demanded that all armed forces withdraw immediately from Saaxdheer. Here's the original press statement: http://unsom.unmissions.org/Default.aspx?tabid=6254&ctl=Details&mid=9770&ItemID=30565&language=en-US Middayexpress (talk) 18:33, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Funny, how come you used it here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2010_Ayn_clashes&action=history

At any rate, our discussion is not about what the UN said, it's about the end of Khatumoo state after it leader withdraw from his own state. Khatumo state president is on the run, most of His militia has been absorbed to Somaliland forces in Taleex, some are under arrest, and the rest are either dead or crossed the Ethiopian border What is left for Khatumoo state? 217.164.177.224 (talk) 19:36, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

That's not a dif dear fellow; that's a random link. You also have not established that Khatumo State is defunct. Frankly, I don't see how you could when Galayr both vowed to re-capture Las Anod from Somaliland troops and designated it his administration's new capital (it's not Taleh anymore). Middayexpress (talk) 19:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

what do you mean "random link" the link I presented was a pro-Puntland, anti-Somaliland newspaper. Galyer said in his own words "We want peace and we want good neighborhood but in the meantime we will never accept imposed and forced administration brought by Somaliland to take over our land... I condemn the bare and wicked invasion by Somaliland forces with the strongest terms." saying these words from another country is a clear sign of defeat. Where is his "new capital" express? The man barley managed to run from his last stronghold in Sahder how will he take back Lasanood? Again I do not plan to make this longer than it really takes. We'll continue this with a presence of an n administrator tomorrow I am a bit busy now. Take care217.164.177.224 (talk) 20:26, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I was talking about your internal link there. At any rate, Galayr indeed made those declarations. Per the Khatumo Forum for Peace, Unity and Development, Las Anod is the Khatumo administration's new declared capital; it's no longer at Taleh [4]. Middayexpress (talk) 21:43, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

oh please! who do you think you'r talking to? Galayr indeed made those declarations AFTER he was chased out from Sahdder. His declaration and vows regarding Sool region has no value once he was chased out from there. Clerly you do not want to admit it...217.164.177.44 (talk) 07:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty certain I have an idea who I'm talking to. In any event, the declaration of Las Anod as Khatumo's new capital actually predates the Saaxdheer raid. Galayr made it upon his election [5]. Middayexpress (talk) 19:49, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I lost hope on you running in empty circles. My point was clear, he is the new president of Khatumoo state, and he lost his last stronghold in Sool. His pervious declarations are irrelevant to these recent events. At any rate, you clearly do not want to peruse for a fair resolution. We need a third party intervention to mediate between us.217.164.184.21 (talk) 23:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

No need for a 3O, I will just update the article...23:42, 1 September 2014 (UTC)217.164.184.21 (talk)

SSC clans

I think that you messed a large clan that inhabitants the SSC regions witch is the Isaaq — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.164.188.227 (talk) 15:45, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

According to various maps and data so far, it looks like very few Isaaq live in this region of Somalia. AcidSnow (talk) 15:50, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Indeed [6]. Middayexpress (talk) 16:14, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I have a better picture that represents the situation in north Somalia. The picture of Middayexpress is relying on a very old Data and represents the situation in all of Somalia plus, its a lot modern and accurate

http://hornofafrica.ssrc.org/Hoehne/printable.html

well Sanaag is a very large region according to the old Somali system it has 3 districts Cel Afwyen, Erigavo, Las qorey the cel Afwyene disrict in inhabitabt by the Habar jeclo sub clan of the Isaaq, the large central district of Erigavo is inhabitant by all clans the northern portion is Isaaq (Habar jeclo&Habar Yoonis) the southern is Darood (Warsangali and Dhulbahanti) the eastern ditrict of Lasqory is inhabitant by the Darood with a prssence of Isaaq in General they inhabitant 45 to 50% of the region total area

Yes, Sool region is mostly held by the Dhulubahanti sub clan of the Darood but a large chunk of it (Aaynabo District) or what we call Saraar is almost exclusively inhabitant by the Habar Jeclo sub clan of the Isaaq. Also they have few settlements in Xudur it must have grown by now, in general, 25 to 30& of Sool region is inhabitant by Isaaq ...

As for the Cayn region is also shared between the Dhulbahanti and the Isaaq but I do not have the exact figures

so I think we should include theme in the discretion since they control a very large chunk of SSC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.164.188.227 (talk) 16:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Your joking right? That's the same map you just used for the Isaaq page..... Even this "new" map is almost the same as the other one. Other than that your whole reply is orginal research which is not accepted here. AcidSnow (talk) 16:56, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

well it had clear figures unlike the new one it present the numbers of the Isaaq in the larger Somalia not north of it

and its not a research its a well cited article and was used by Middayexpress in the article of Sool clashes 2010, if that was the case, many of your articles regarding Somali is based on researches we gonaa have great times 217.164.189.43 (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't really understand what your saying. Anyways, that link is not in the 2010 clash nor does it give the forgives your claiming; which I already told is original research. AcidSnow (talk) 17:34, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

My bad, its in Puntland-Somaliland dispute here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puntland%E2%80%93Somaliland_dispute#cite_note-14

And since you don't recognize it here is this one?

http://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain?page=search&docid=3ae6a5bf0&skip=0&query=Erigavo%20clans&coi=SOM

217.164.177.224 (talk) 18:03, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

That link is from almost twenty years ago. It also doesn't say that the Isaaq predominantly inhabit Sool, Sanaag and Cayn. They obviously don't or the territorial conflict there wouldn't exist. Middayexpress (talk) 18:33, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

It does not matter how old the source is as long a its still make a relaible refrence, the fact finding mission was in 97 how much the Demographics could change? (if not for the favor of Isaaq) if you have something new I am open minded

secondly, unlike you I never said the Isaaq primarily inhabitant the entire two regions as they quite huge for a single clan to claim it

finally, you have no prove or evidence that the Warasangli or the Dhulubahanti primarly inhabitant SSC regions let alone the regional capital Erigavo (which its Isaaq by they way with a pressence of Darood, Gabooy, Sameroon). all what you have is a suspicious "old" book that you entire arguments depende on, I can go to "google books" and bring countless books that says the opposite. if you are do confident, give us a link to you infmouse source

here is addtional sources

even this biased source shows Darood are not in control of all SSC

http://www.somaliareport.com/index.php/post/2715/The_Quest_for_Somali_Self-Governance

http://www.eth.mpg.de/cms/en/people/d/mhoehne/project.html

217.164.177.224 (talk) 19:17, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

With respect, you are confusing two separate issues: the actual clan composition of the Sool, Sanaag and Cayn provinces versus territorial control of that area by Somaliland/Puntland/Khatumo. None of your links claim that Isaaq are a significant resident clan in that territory. Indeed, the CIA map makes it clear that Sool and Cayn are predominantly inhabited by the Dhulbahante, while Sanaag is predominantly inhabited by the Warsangali [7]. Middayexpress (talk) 19:36, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Why are you running in circles? I am not talking about the maps I am talking about the Demography of SSC. Here you have a clear report on the Demo of Sanaag but you choose to ignore it in favor of an blank inaccurate map, yet you refuse to accept another more detailed map that shows the boundaries of the tribal clans residing there?

also your only source does not indicate Darood being a " significant " clan in SSC nor I think a blank map does?

We need one of the Admin to mediate between us.

217.164.177.224 (talk) 19:57, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Be my guest, User:217.164.177.224. Your linked map still unfortunately doesn't say anything about clan composition [8], unlike the official CIA demographic map [9]. I should also point out that the admin User:Gyrofrog originally uploaded the CIA map [10]. Middayexpress (talk) 20:33, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I was talking about those two

http://www.eth.mpg.de/cms/en/people/d/mhoehne/project.html

http://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain?page=search&docid=3ae6a5bf0&skip=0&query=Erigavo%20clans&coi=SOM

so clearly thae Isaaq have a large pressence in SSC at least to west of Erigavo, Hudun district, Bahodale

It would be great if User:Gyrofrog managed to join us. Anyway, you have not present any source that support your claim that SSC is only inhabitant by the Darood. Yo have to start give us some answers too, we'll continue later — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.164.177.224 (talk) 20:43, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

None of your links claim that Isaaq are a significant resident clan in the Sool, Sanaag and Cayn provinces (that was your original assertion above: "I think that you messed a large clan that inhabitants the SSC regions witch is the Isaaq"). Indeed, the first one doesn't even mention the Isaaq. Ironically, like the CIA, it instead indicates with regard to the Sool, Sanaag and Cayn provinces that Garowe/Puntland argues that "they are predominantly inhabited by Harti-clans belonging to the Darood-clan-family". I also did not say that Sool, Sanaag and Cayn is only inhabited by the Darod. I quite clearly indicated that "the CIA map makes it clear that Sool and Cayn are predominantly inhabited by the Dhulbahante, while Sanaag is predominantly inhabited by the Warsangali" [11]. So it's really the CIA distribution map itself that you're suggesting is wrong. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 21:15, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Here's a map from 2012. AcidSnow (talk) 21:23, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Looks pretty similar to the CIA map. Middayexpress (talk) 21:43, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

That's because the regions really have not changed since the last time it was done. Though I don't understand how the CIA can say 6% are ethnic minorities than later say that 15% of Somalia is ethnic minorities. AcidSnow (talk) 21:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

First of all, the new map that was present by Acidsnow is the same pervious map presented by Middayexpress, the only thing is different is the colors, it was re-published in 2012 without any change. The map is very old dated from 77, it was re-published in 1992, 2002 and in different colors in 2012.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/africa/somalia_ethnic77.jpg 1977 version

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/africa/somalia_ethnic92.jpg 1992 version

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/africa/somalia_ethnic_grps_2002.jpg 2002 version

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/africa/txu-pclmaps-oclc-795784383-somalia_2012_clan_distro.jpg

2012 version

So other than using it for accurate figures in 1977, it does not seem to be valid. However it is interesting to note that even in the old map the Habar Yoonis and the Habar Je'lo had a good presence in Sool and Sanaag regions.

But, it is better to use this one because it was made in 2003 and shows clearly the disputed areas of SSC of witch Puntland claims it is inhabitant by their fellow Harti Darood.

http://www.eth.mpg.de/cms/en/people/d/mhoehne/project.html

This report alone makes any of your outdated maps irrelevant since it describes the situation much more accurately speacially in Sanaag "The four major population groups in the Sanaaq region were respectively the Harti clans Warsangeli and Dhulbahante and the Isaq clans Habr Jallo and Habr Yonis, all of which were roughly the same size. Yet the region's main city Erigavo was wholly dominated by the Habr Jallo and Habr Yonis. In addition to the Harti and Isaq clans, there were a number of very small clans, none of which was subject to any form of clan-based persecution..."

http://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain?page=search&docid=3ae6a5bf0&skip=0&query=Erigavo%20clans&coi=SOM

Even puntland (who wish to control all Harti-Darood inhabitant lands in SSC) does not claim the entire Sool and Sanaag region. They left a very generous chunk of Sool and Sanaag (obviously because there is no Darood there)217.164.177.44 (talk) 07:42, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Puntland_new_regions_map.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Puntland-map.jpg

The million Dollar question! Do you have any sources that support your allegations? According to Wiki "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" per WP:REDFLAG and WP:EXCEPTIONAL you have not presented any by stating "Most residents belong to the Somali ethnic group, with the Dhulbahante sub-clan of the Harti Darod especially well-represented." Remember, you still claim the entire Sanaag region and Sool regions (including the western portions):http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/KhatumoStateloc.PNG

"surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources; Challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest;[8] Reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character or against an interest they had previously defended; Claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living people. This is especially true when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them."

Also, per WP:NPOV,WP:NPV,WP:POV you must mention all points of view "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." clearly you have not achieved that by Ignoring the presence of Isaaq in the outdated map in Sool and Sanaag and selectively choosing a Pro-Khatumoo webpages that denies their existence in favor of other much smaller tribes residing in the area.

Additionally, like most of your articles, your main source is based upon pure Original Research. This report cannot be considered a reliable source.

http://www.somaliareport.com/index.php/post/3271/What_is_Khatumo_State

Therefore I request removing it.217.164.182.154 (talk) 15:52, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

here is an additional links to couple books that proves the Isaaq clan making a significant portion of Sanaag region in equal withe the neighboring Darood clans.

http://books.google.ae/books?id=vFz9Pr_aha0C&pg=PA107&dq=Isaaq+Sanaag&hl=ar&sa=X&ei=zqwEVPDJE4TIyAO_-YKQAQ&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Isaaq%20Sanaag&f=false page 107

http://books.google.ae/books?id=Pos3wAofV4UC&pg=PA314&dq=Isaaq+Sool+region&hl=ar&sa=X&ei=c60EVO-qIMj8ygPggILYAg&ved=0CFQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Isaaq%20Sool%20region&f=false page 314

A single un-accessible book that you presented as a source does have much credibility either.

http://books.google.ae/books?id=oewbAQAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.164.188.30 (talk) 18:35, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

You are not reading the CIA map properly [12]. It obviously doesn't claim that all of Sool, Sanaag and Cayn is inhabited by Harti (Dhulbahante & Warsangali here), but rather that that is the numerically dominant clan in these areas. The same goes for the Isaaq in Woqooyi Galbeed and Togdheer (note how it doesn't mention the Madhiban, though they of course inhabit that area as well). That said, the CIA map hasn't changed much over the years because the dominant clan composition in these areas hasn't either. AcidSnow's distribution map also doesn't appear to be from the CIA, but rather from the Fsgroup, which used ethnographic data from I.M. Lewis (see the bottom [13]). The refworld link above is thus adequate for noting that Isaaq also inhabited Sanaag, but not for its claim that they were roughly equal in size to the Harti clans there. As for that last Arabic text link, I didn't link to it so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Middayexpress (talk) 19:49, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't you get tired repeating the same thing over and over? I already explained why the CIA map is not suitable fot your allegations and I do not intend on repeating myself again here http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/somalia.html

Go down into the Thematic Maps you will find your files labeled as Ethnic Groups with the dates of publications and the source (CIA) along. The 2012 is the same with a slight different in colors. With everything that happened to Somalia in almost 40 years (tribal and foreign wars, several famines, large scale of internal displaced people etc...) the new map is merely a copy of the old map and widely misrepresents the current situation in Somalia. My map was made in 2003 and it focuses much more on the disputed land in North Somalia regions of SSC.

Clearly my sources are much more reliable and modern than your single, outdated source as I presented links and reports to support my claim. You on the other hand make random and unrealistic justifications for example: "The refworld link above is thus adequate for noting that Isaaq also inhabited Sanaag, but not for its claim that they were roughly equal in size to the Harti clans there" My source clearly says the opposite and your reason is not enough. Yet, you have not presented any prove that they are numerically dominant clan as it well known that the Warsangali are the smallest clan in the Harti confederation. Describing an old map will not do you much good.217.164.184.21 (talk) 22:50, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

You were told several times now to stop adding partisan blogs, seek consensus, and stop pov pushing. Although you were still given the benefit of the doubt, it's clear from your UAE geolocation that you are yet another ip sock of User:Reer Woqooyi. The disruption ends here. Middayexpress (talk) 17:12, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

First, the links you presented is the partisan blogs and an Original research of witch it is not accepted here. Secondly, as a member of Wiki you must assume good faith:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith

I am not the user "Reer Woqoyi" nor I am obligated to prove it to you. I will seek consensus as its obvious Who is in a better stand here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.164.181.138 (talk) 18:17, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

As already pointed out to you, that demographic map is from the CIA, not a "partisan blog" [14]. The only actual partisan blogs are your own links to sites like Somalilandinformer, which the Dubai-based Reer Woqooyi was of course quite fond of. Middayexpress (talk) 18:52, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

As I said before, clearly we are not getting anywhere. We need an opinion from a Third party. Therefore it is better to ask one of the administrators to mediate between us. I'll halt our discussion until that happens..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.164.179.36 (talk) 03:12, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I hope your happy after blocking me. It won't help though, am calling a mediator. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.99.102.81 (talk) 13:40, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

The reliability of sources

The validity of sources

Many of the sources on this page are based on pure original researches . Therefore It is not valid & and should be removed ASAP.

Some of the sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatumo_State#cite_note-Srwiks-3 haveily relied on here despite having no backbone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatumo_State#cite_note-4 A parastrian article by a "poltical analyst" is not welcomed here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatumo_State#cite_note-NSUMau-5 A dead link?

This link to "About us: Northern Somali Unionist Movement (NSUM)" is dead but may be found archived here. --Bejnar (talk) 21:34, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatumo_State#cite_note-Ksgatiat-12 Awdal state.com? really?

This link is dead but may be found archived here.--Bejnar (talk) 21:34, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I suggest you remove these so called references, or else, I'll take it to the noticeboard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.99.102.81 (talk) 15:04, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry, I didn't realize your reply till now. But, with respect, you know Awdal state does not exist in the first place! The "proposed state" only exist on Wikipedia which I find it a great shame since the quality of the sources in that page is even worse than Khatumoo's. It's a big lie that was pushed by the 2 user's (or maybe more) who try to further their agenda and very bias point of view towards Sool, Sanaag, Cayn and Awdal regions. Back to the issue, the first website (about us) is very odd don't you think? I mean does this sound realistic? "The diaspora from Sool, Sanaag and Cayn.... the people from the SSC regions of Northern Somalia" It sounds hilarious to me and unrealistic since almost half of the population there (Isaaq) are die hard pro-Somaliland while the majority of the residents of the far eastern regions (Darood) are pro-Somaliland as well. There is no 3rd party publisher or source to back up their major claims as the sole and legitimate representers to the different populations of these large regions, thus we can conclude that it's obviously a self published source. Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources

The other website is functioning but it's closer to a blog than it is to a news paper http://www.awdalstate.com/ 90% of the articles are in Somali. The few articles there in English like the one you just post is mostly an opinion by an anonymous writer and should be considered as OR. It lacks neutrality & Biased toward Khatumoo & Somalia, you can see it clearly advertising and praising the "Khatumoo management" in the last paragraph. Which it's strange since the site is supposed to be concerned with "Awdal state" Matter of fact, it goes against the non-advo policy followed here in Wikipedia. It's backed with opinions regarding third parties (Somaliland, Somalia) which it's enough to be labeled as non reliable source. 92.96.190.168 (talk) 17:55, 1 February 2015 (UTC) 92.96.190.168 (talk) 18:13, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Please see below. Middayexpress (talk) 19:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

DRN request

A request for dispute resolution was made on 30 January 2015 for issues raised on this talk page. The thread is at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Talk:Khatumo State#SSC_clans. Parties are encouraged to add their own "Summary of dispute" sections prior to discussion being opened. DRN volunteer Bejnar (talk) 21:57, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

NSUM

The NSUM website is only used to note the organization's mission. Had it been used for controversial assertions regarding rival political authorities, then that indeed would not be neutral. Regarding awdalstate, it too is not on anything political, but rather on the establishment of the new Taleh Airport. Middayexpress (talk) 19:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

At least we could see that you have finally dropped the attitude and the discussion for sake of discussion fallacy.

Make a stand here midday, you either go for NSUM, SSC or Khaatumo. They are not the same thing you know.86.99.96.160 (talk) 03:58, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Nice to see you to Reer Woqooyi! How are you this fine day? AcidSnow (talk) 04:40, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I see that we are on the same page here regarding the the first two sources which both fall short in miles in reference reliability. Perhaps we can do some clean to the miss all around this article. I can understand if you can't have an urge or a motive to do so since it's your hard work essentially. 92.96.160.44 (talk) 14:20, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

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former state?

...former President of the now-defunct Khatumo State, Ali Khalif Galayr... Maybe now it's a former state?--Murza-Zade (talk) 13:22, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Lede

Jacob300, I noticed you reverted my formatting and move to history. Why was this? Felinepaw (talk) 21:48, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Felinepaw, your edit was not neutral as it removed the fact that the president of Khaatumo reached an agreement of Somaliland. In 2017 prior to the agreement, Khaatumo was a unitary movement and did not have different factions. Thanks Jacob300 (talk) 19:07, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I did not remove it, I moved it to history. If you insist it's in the lede I will have to include the Khatumo president Indhosheel reaching an agreement with Puntland in 2014 (per Markus Hoehne) for context otherwise it gives the undue impression that Khatumo has been led by a single individual as opposed to three leaders. It's also important to highlight 2 out of 3 leaders agreed to join Puntland otherwise it's best to revert it to history. Felinepaw (talk) 19:44, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Khatumo - proto state

Hi Jacob300

Khatumo being a proto-state is not an issue. Its referred to as an organisation in the text of the article, which is wrong. The entity was founded as a administration which aimed to be a recognised federal member state of Somalia. Furthermore, the khatumo-Somaliland agreement should of course remain on the article, but it has to be mentioned that the administration has not yet officially integrated into Somaliland as some of the stipulations of the agreement have not yet been fulfilled. This information must be mentioned in the Article to inform the reader properly.

Also please do not remove material that is sourced, I can see you have reverted some text I added although I have provided a source.

Regards Shirshore (talk) 13:23, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi Shirshore

It is important to highlight the fact that "Khatumo" is not an actual administration but a proto-state that is now defunct. Representing "Khatumo" as a genuine recognised administration with control on the ground is inaccurate. Additionally, it's important that the key aspect of the "Somaliland-Khatumo" agreement i.e. "Khatumo" becoming integrated within the Somaliland political process is included. Moreover, there is no source provided for the sentence "Nevertheless, the state is still officially in existence, with Ali Khalif Galaydh as it's incumbent president.".

Many thanks Jacob300 (talk) 11:36, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi Jacob300,

Apologies for the late reply. You make valid points. I do not know whether Khatumo has officially integrated with Somaliland, I was aware of the Aynabo agreement which stipulated an amendment of Somaliland's constitution prior to integration (among other conditions). I don't think that stipulation has been fulfilled yet, am not aware if Ali Khalif Galaydh withdraw that stipulation since either. Nonetheless, it's important that the narrative of the article is not biased and its purely based on facts to inform the readers accurately. I am willing to make such edits with your help.

Regards, Shirshore (talk) 17:38, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Cayn Historian:

I have reverted your revision that stated Khatumo is an "is an unrecognised Federal Member State in Somalia", this is not factual. Khatumo has never been recognised by any entity including the central Somalian government as anything butas a proto-state as per the stated source. Additionally, the cited source of "Hiiran.com" is not a reliable source, therefore I have removed the sentence associated with it.

Many thanks Jacob300 (talk) 18:03, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

@Jacob300: You don't seem to be aware of everyone's opinions on your talk page. I am requesting evidence for your claim that "Hiiraan is akin to a tabloid site."--Freetrashbox (talk) 21:31, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

@Jacob300: Please discuss this to prevent an editing war. You are making edits without answering questions from others. Even if your edits are correct, they will not be able to see their mistakes unless you sincerely show them why. See WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS.--Freetrashbox (talk) 21:05, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Cayn Historian and Freetrashbox:,

I have reverted your edits to stable version as per the reasons stated above.

As I have mentioned Khatumo was never deemed as a federal state by any entity and this is not factual. Khatumo is classed as a former proto-state as per the cited source. I have removed citations mentioned prior "Hiiran.com" as this is not a verifiable/reliable source. Please engage on this talk page prior to making any further edits.

Many thanks Jacob300 (talk) 22:49, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Jacob300: Let's solve the problems one at a time. You said Hiiraan was "akin to a tabloid site", are you still of the same opinion? If so, please give us examples of which article in Hiiraan is "akin to a tabloid". Or are you rescinding this one and explaining it from a different perspective?--Freetrashbox (talk) 22:58, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Freetrashbox:,

I am of the opinion that "Hiiran.com" - the cited source does not meet WP:Reliability guidelines. Additionally, stating that Khatumo is an "unrecognised federal state" is not factual. Many thanks Jacob300 (talk) 23:07, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Jacob300: You probably have a serious misunderstanding of WP:Reliability; WP:Reliability is a question of the reliability of the source, not a judgment about the reliability of the information itself. We can't say, "Because the information on the site is wrong, the site is not a reliable source of information." WP:Reliability is a long document. You need to show where Hiiraan is in conflict with WP:Reliability.--Freetrashbox (talk) 23:16, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Freetrashbox:

As per WP:NEWSBLOG, it is also clear that Hiiran.com writers are not professional news writers. Therefore, it is very unlikely that published material have undergone the usual fact checking process. Additionally, I am unable to find any reliable source that have reported on what Hiiraan.com has published on this matter. Many thanks Jacob300 (talk) 11:11, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

@Jacob300: There is always no evidence for your opinions. Can you prove that Hiiran.com writers are not professional news writers? Hiiran.com is listed as a reference in Markus Virgil Hoehne's book Between Somaliland and Puntland(p.130 etc.)--Freetrashbox (talk) 12:28, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Freetrashbox:,

As previously stated, please feel free re-add the sentence detailing what is claimed in that hiiran article using a reliable source. Many thanks Jacob300 (talk) 19:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Stop the edit war. Whether there is a reason or not, what you and Cayn Historian are doing is just an editing war. -Freetrashbox (talk) 20:50, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

″@Cayn Historian:

Please stop reverting edits and adding poorly sourced content, discuss it here on the talk page. Dabaqabad (talk) 21:42, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: Please show us the basis for your claim that the Hiiran.com article was written based on twitter. And this is just an editing war and I don't see why you should blame only Cayn Historian.--Freetrashbox (talk) 22:11, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@Freetrashbox: I have already explained earlier why Hiiraan Online is an unreliable source. The burder is on you to prove that it is indeed reliable, and that there are reliable sources that cover the supposed "exit" of the Aynabo agreement, and so far you have not showed a single piece of evidence to back your claim. Dabaqabad (talk) 22:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: If you are withdrawing your opinion about twitter, let me answer your added question. Since you know a lot about this field, you should have some idea why the statement was issued under Khatumo's name now. Perhaps it should not be that different from my opinion.--Freetrashbox (talk) 22:44, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@Freetrashbox: That is an entirely different sentence. I already explained it to you earlier: it first came up on Twitter and was later on picked up by Hiiraan Online. I honestly don't know how you came to that conclusion.

You still have not answered my question; can you prove that Hiiraan Online is beyond a reasonable doubt a reliable source? And if not, is there a reliable source that documents this? Right now I'm seeing a lot of questions from you but no answers. Dabaqabad (talk) 22:51, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedian is not allowed to judge the reliability of the information itself. This is a very important rule. If you can provide evidence that Hiiraan is writing articles based on dubious twitter feeds, or that Hiiraan's reporters are non-professionals, then you can prove that Hiiraan is not a reliable source of information. Otherwise, as I have shown, Hiiraan is cited in a book written by a university faculty member, so Wikipedian cannot deny the information written in Hiiraan.--Freetrashbox (talk) 23:13, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

If it were not for Wikipedians judging and researching the reliability of information then this site would've been riddled with original research time ago. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, that is literally the point. To make sure that the information is reliable and verifiable.

Even if a book written by a university faculty member were to cite it, that would at best make Hiiraan a primary source, with its reliability still being in question. Dabaqabad (talk) 23:22, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: Of course, the reliability and verifiability of information is an important concept. However, Wikipedia is created by non-professional editors, and their original research is considered unreliable. If a Wikipedian removes someone else's description simply because it doesn't fit with their own knowledge, that is also original research. There is no contradiction between the fact that the Khatumo government lost its reality around 2015 and the fact that it issued a press release in 2021. It is common for political organizations that have lost their substance to make statements. Even if you have to prove that Khatumo's statement is unreliable, we need another evidence.--Freetrashbox (talk) 00:23, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

I have proved to you earlier on @Jacob300:'s talk page the fact that the press release is unverified. Just to recap:

"The article that he cited [15] is based on this tweet [16] which is unverified (and quite frankly I very much doubt that Twitter account is the official Khaatumo Twitter account to begin with). I also couldn't find any reliable source to back this either, with other news sites (especially Somali ones) being mute on this.

I do not know about whether Hiiraan is in fact a tabloid site or not, but the fact that it seems to be the only news site to report this (even tabloid sites that are pro-Khatuumo like Khaatumonews24 has not reported on this supposed "exit" from the Aynabo agreement [17]) seems fishy."

This is not about "fitting" my own knowledge. I don't think you understand what constitutes original research. This is about making sure content on this article is verifiable and accurate, and preventing original research as well as getting rid of it. Again, the burden of proof is on you to prove that Khatumo's statement is legit, I have already proven enough. Without you providing any sort of evidence we're just going around circles. Dabaqabad (talk) 00:32, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: I also believe that my explanation is sufficient and that you have not provided any evidence, so we will probably never reach an agreement even if we discuss it alone. Anyway, what you and Cayn Historian and Jacob300 are doing is just an editing war; don't revert and then explain, but revert only after you have reached an agreement. What you are doing on the Las Anod page is also just an editing war.--Freetrashbox (talk) 04:02, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cayn Historian: Stop the edit war... Instead of forcing edits to maintain your preferred description, please give a convincing explanation and convince everyone before you edit.--Freetrashbox (talk) 12:46, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

It’s not an edit war it’s you and your group who won’t leave the edit alone and keep the updated version. Not only do you keep changing the edit but you or one of your group also changed the flag that was there from before. why do you guys needs to be convinced? Hiiraan is academic source repeated many times. A group of you don’t want this edit to happen. Fortunately editing back Wikipedia won’t change reality. Cayn Historian (talk) 20:35, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cayn Historian: I am saying that there is a problem on both sides, not just you. I asked you before to name a academic paper that refers to Hiiraan. I have listed a book by a scholar, so please list academic paper(s) as well. If you act in good faith according to Wikipedia's rules, your claim will eventually be accepted. In general, if the discussion stalls, please prove your integrity not only to your debate partner, but also to the other editors and administrators who may be reading this Talk Page. It is not sincere to just repeat revert unnecessarily.--Freetrashbox (talk) 23:10, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

A quick googles search and you see Hiraan online what its about and its reliability “ Today it has grown to become a reliable hub of all Somali media both inside and outside the country for breaking news stories”. Hiiraan Wikipedia page refers to it as “ Hiiraan Online (HOL) is the oldest news and most popular website dedicated to news and information about Somalia and the Horn of Africa.” I’ve explained this to you and the others but you refuse to accept it and continue to change it back. You’ve also changed the flag picture that appeared to another picture. Here’s the academic source mentioning hiiraan online https://library.stanford.edu/africa-south-sahara/browse-topic/news-country/somalia-news

http://www.artsrn.ualberta.ca/MinorityMedia/items/show/354

Cayn Historian (talk) 00:14, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cayn Historian: None of them vouch for their reliability, all they do is note down the fact that they exist. The second point is; if an article is reliable then the story that it reports on is also reported by several other journalists and reliable news networks, however only Hiiraan has reported on this supposed exit while reliable sources like BBC Somali and VOA Somali have remained silent. We cannot add unverified content.

Also, I feel like it is pointless discussing with you. You've made it clear that you will continue disruptively editing ([18]) as well as threatening fellow Wikipedians ([19], [20], [21], [22]), not to mention personal attacks ([23], [24]) and highlighting your political opinion ([25], which leads to a conflict of interest as well as making this a POV] issue).

BBC Somali or VOA Somali are not local Somali media, they reports world news in Somali language, then its not reports all news happening in Somaliland/Somalia. I assume that this information is not found anywhere else but Hiiraan. However, there is also not enough information to say that Hiiraan's information is wrong. In my experience, such information is not usually rejected by Wikipedia. I think the best compromise would be to say "according to Hiiraan" and not describe the authenticity of this information itself.--Freetrashbox (talk) 11:15, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Once the protect is expired, I would like to add the following statement.

In November 2021, Hiiraan reported that "the Khatumo administration exited the agreement reached by the former president of Khatumo, by the reason of Somaliland of failing to implement the agreement."^{[Hiiraan cite]}

--Freetrashbox (talk) 10:43, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I'd wait with that since that is unconfirmed atm, not to mention the other issues that I mentioned. Also we failed to reach a consensus on this so there's that.

Fyi BBC and VOA Somali regularly report on local news and since they are reliable sources we should stick with those when it comes to touchy subjects like these instead of unconfirmed and most likely false articles that haven't been covered by any reliable sources. Dabaqabad (talk) 23:24, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

You write about a person's affiliation clan using the BBC as a source, but I could not find this information. Can you point the URL of the BBC or VOA that described this information?--Freetrashbox (talk) 05:03, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Page 72 of the EASO Country of Origin Information Report - Somalia Security Situation (https://www.ecoi.net/en/file/local/1158113/1226_1457606427_easo-somalia-security-feb-2016.pdf) states that the wider El Afweyn district (including the town itself) is mainly inhabited by the Habar Jeclo clan. I'll add that to the article.

Either way that is entirely off-topic. If you cannot provide a reliable source that has reported on this then you cannot under any circumstance add it to any article since that would breach WP:RELIABLE. Dabaqabad (talk) 09:24, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

I am checking to see if you understand the meaning of the phrase "citing sources." "Xxx belongs to the Habr Je'lo" and "xxx was born in El Afweyn, a town mainly inhabited by the Habr Je'lo" have completely different meanings. You are not so faithful in stating the sources. Yet you are demanding more rigor from your debate partners than is generally standard on Wikipedia. See WP:GAME.--Freetrashbox (talk) 10:04, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Both sentences are very similar in meaning. You can't use something that I did 4 months ago before the arbitration committee report to deliver a "gotcha" moment. I have been very careful with citing sources after the arbitration committee report. The fact you're accusing me of gaming the system when all I'm doing is following Wikipedia's guidelines is just laughable.

This is not more rigor than is standard, this is literally making sure that we do not add unconfirmed and unverified content. You failed to demonstrate that this story has been covered by reliable news agencies, Somali or not, nor have you given me a single piece of evidence that this is confirmed.

We failed to reach a consensus, therefore let us wait until this supposed exit is confirmed by more reliable sources. Dabaqabad (talk) 12:14, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Please add a source to your edits that are more than 5 months old. In the example shown above, you wrote with a source. Even in such a short description, there is information mixed in that is not written in the source, so the only way to check if your description is correct is to read all the sources you mentioned. Can you imagine how hard this would be for others to do?

Back to the topic. From the above your statement, it seems that the disagreement between you and me is whether Hiiraan is a reliable news agency or not. I have indicated in response that Hiiraan is cited in the writings of university faculty, but you seem not to be satisfied with that. Therefore, let us verify Hiiraan's reliability from a different angle.

Since you also seem to have quotes from news agencies, I hope you can show where these are reliable and where they differ from Hiiraan. From what I can see, you consider Somali Diaspora NEWS[26] [27], All Hadaaftimo[28] to be a reliable news agency.--Freetrashbox (talk) 11:16, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: If there are no comments, I will add the above information to the article.--Freetrashbox (talk) 11:10, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@Freetrashbox: I suggest we get a third opinion on this before proceeding. It's clear that people are divided on this issue so adding it unilaterally is disingenuous. Dabaqabad (talk) 16:34, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: OK. Can I use Whether Hiiraan site and a Hiiraan report are reliable sources. for the description to be posted?--Freetrashbox (talk) 21:01, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

The issue isn't that, the issue is is this verified which it is not. I'll make the post. Dabaqabad (talk) 10:36, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Then I'll leave it to you.--Freetrashbox (talk) 10:48, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: Do you make the post yet?--Freetrashbox (talk) 21:26, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: After my comment above, it appears that despite your history of activity on Wikipedia, you have not made any progress on this matter. Therefore, I have tentatively added the above explanation to the article. I continue to wait for you to make a post calling for a Third opinion.--Freetrashbox (talk) 03:06, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@Freetrashbox: Sorry didn't see this.

I reverted your edit due to the fact that per WP:NOCONSENSUS, you can't "tentatively" add content that is currently under dispute since no consensus has been formed. Per WP:NOCONSENSUS:

"In discussions of proposals to add, modify, or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit."

You've already been bold, you're currently at the discussion phase. Per WP:TALKDONTREVERT:

"Consensus cannot always be assumed simply because editors stop responding to talk page discussions in which they have already participated"

With that being said I'll probably make the post today hopefully if I have time. Keep in mind that third opinions are non-binding, and is in essence advice only. Dabaqabad (talk) 13:51, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: If you do not post to Third opinion within a few days of your next edit of another Wikipedia article, I will assume that you have no intention of making a call for Third opinion and will reinstate my edit above. If you then revert my edit without making a post to Third opinion, I will assume that you are not willing resolve the issue with discussion, and I will attempt to resolve the issue by other method. --Freetrashbox (talk) 03:53, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

@Freetrashbox: Your assumption is completely uncalled for. On Wikipedia you are supposed to assume good faith, something that you currently aren't doing.

Either way I made the post, link is at Wikipedia:Third_opinion#Active_disagreements. Dabaqabad (talk) 04:37, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: Thank you. I'm glad that things have progressed.--Freetrashbox (talk) 04:44, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• SSC Map.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:07, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Ask for check

Is there anybody who can check if this aricel is (not) a fake article?

• If I check Goggle to get information most results are from Wikipedias and Wikivoyages. I did not found an information from any ministry of foreign affairs.
• The flag is a photo composition of a variant of the Somali flag and a photo af a (bronze) statue of a horseman who could be a European or Asian leader. There is no independent source.
• The maps given are completely different.
• The girls at the so-called "Khatumo State proclamation ceremony" have Somali flags but no flags of Khatumo.
• The photograph "President Silanyo and Ali Khalif signing the Somaliland-Khatumo Agreement" presents the Russion foreign minister Sergey Lavrov on the left side and an Arabic flag on the table.
• if you have a view to the Wikidata item Q2621587 of Khatumo most sources came from https://ru.wikipedia.org/?oldid=126446857 which is an old version of the article of "Бронза" (English "Bronze").
• Many sources in the article came from www.somaliareport.com. My browser gives a security warning for this site.

I can't help but feel the article is a fake. At the German Wikipedia and the German Wikivoyage deletion applications have been made. If Khatumo State is really a movement within Somalia or better Somaliland then it is maybe not relevant for Wikipedia. --RolandUnger (talk) 09:33, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• There are several references about Khatumo in Google Scholar and Google books. Khatumo itself exists.
• There is no doubt that such a flag exists since the Khatumo flag can be seen in the photos of Hiiraan Online, a relatively well-known media outlet. However, it is clear from the same photo that most people generally use the flag of the Federal Republic of Somalia.
• The Khatumo country territory shown on the map is the territory claimed by Khatumo, and the area of effective control is much smaller than this.

Please check them. This article is less reliable than other articles on Wikipedia. Because those who support Khatumo are trying to describe it more excessively than it actually is, and those who deny Khatumo are trying to describe it less obsequiously than it actually is.--Freetrashbox (talk) 12:02, 6 August 2023 (UTC) Freetrashbox (talk) 12:02, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Changes to historical section

@Vif12vf I noticed you reverted my edit on the historical section earlier today. I editted it in order to remove some content that appeared to be POV pushing (for example, 'locals were angry at Somaliland for killing a poet' paraphrased, while the main article on the conflict lists the side involved as disputed). This page otherwise is far better than the Los Anod conflict page. I do think the edit I did earlier removed the remaining opinions from the page, but what are your views?

ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 21:33, 9 January 2024 (UTC)