Talk:José Gervasio Artigas

Admiration for US

Due to the fact that the United States of America change their ways according to their necessities or conviniences, I would suggest that the first sentence in the Ideals section, He admired the United States of America and was said to always carry a copy of the United States Constitution with him., should be changed into He admired the back-then-United States of America and was said to always carry a copy of the United States Constitution with him.. I suppose he would have never admired the nowadays U.S.A.

In spite of the fact of my supposition, it is simply not the same these days. --Ladik 01:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

But as Artigas died in 1850 it's absurd to wonder what would be his oppinion of the USA of today. He admired the USA and he never stated the contrary. That is the fact. Otherwise it is plain POV and probably vulnerates Wikipedia's policy of neutrality.--Menah the Great (talk) 05:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, this is nothing but POV, I'll be the first to admit America doesn't live up to its ideals but this is just ridiculous Gailim (talk) 14:51, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see the source that says that he Admired the United States and was often seen carrying it's constitution, for I have reason to believe that he did not, in fact, he couln't even read english. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.139.207.114 (talk) 23:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm Uruguayan and I never heard about him carrying a US constitution, or that he admired the US. He came from a family of freemasons (although he wasn't a mason himself), and he admired the ideals of the French Revolution, which happen to be the same ideals the US founding fathers had. I don't know if he could read English back then, but I find it unlikely. He was very well read and cultured, but French was the language of culture back then. Unless someone can provide a source, I think that statement should be removed. Promethea.Manos (talk) 03:07, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Improving the Article

This site has a great deal more information about Artigas's personal life, including his two wives, numerous affairs, and 15 (?!) known children. The Spanish doesn't autotranslate well, though, so could use a native speaker to check for more authoritative sources and add the information into a family or descendants section.

Also, we could use a cite for the gaucho story since, while it's very romantic to think of Jorge Washington riding off into the sunset, Artigas apparently died in Asuncion (he'd been named to train the ) and received proper burial and even reinterment to Uruguay. I suppose someone could have followed behind the horse, but at that point, it's a little stage-managed. -LlywelynII (talk) 09:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

An even better site for Artigas's personal life, although without any political or historical material. Also in Spanish. -LlywelynII (talk) 09:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

is this article about Artigas or Washington? then why does it always use sentences as "like Washington.... similar to Washington" thats really dumb. We are talking here about one of the greatest man in SouthAmerican history, then he can not be compared in those terms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.242.104.65 (talk) 02:05, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

About Artigas

(i apologize if my english is bad).

I'm from Uruguay and as the spanish article is incomplete i looked for other languages articles.. About the admiration of the US, Ladik, i agree with you, Artigas didn't admire the US itself, in the historical context he lived during the independence war of the US. That's what he admired, remember that south america as US were colonies at that time. The constitution of US as the French revolution ideals were on what he based his own ideal.

About the carrying the constitusion thing i'm not quite sure it is true but he was from the aristocrasy and had a good formation he wasn't an uncultured with an army... (that's for the one who said he wasn't sure about Artigas didnt read english)

I'd also like to add that it is unproper to talk about "Uruguay" in the article as Uruguay didn't formally exist until 1830, Which now is called Uruguay was then called "Eastern Bank". Artigas never called himself as Uruguayan or Argentinian. After 1830 Uruguay "invited" Artigas to return "home" and he aswered "Yo ya no tengo patria" in english "I no longer have a homeland" which means a lot comming from a man who fought for the independence. (the reasons are hard to explain but mainly he was treasoned by the ones who created Uruguay and his ideal was not to create Uruguay but a federation much bigger that included many states from Argentina).

Finaly about improving the article LlywelynII "la republica" is an Uruguayan newspaper so its information isn't exactly neutral, I didn't read all the article, but his affairs aren't what he's admired for, maybe it could be mentioned but it's not relevant over the regional history. The other site seems to be better but i can't asure it's neutrality or if it's reliable.

One more thing, as Uruguayan i'm ashamed about how Artigas real ideals have been distroyed, in school we are taught an attenuated version of his history and that's because he intelectually lost the war. He was against the latifundium (i don't know the exact word in english, but it's the Argentinian and Uruguayan main form of land production nowadays), against the political centralism and many things that were done opposite to what he believed to be correct (again it's hard to explain, but now you maybe understand a little bit better why he said "I no longer have a homeland"). And to finish there's something realy strange about Uruguayan history: Artigas is called "hero" in Uruguay, but he didn't recognize himself as Uruguayan and any documment with Artigas's signature has legal value in Uruguay so in fact he's not legaly a "hero"... much can be said about Artigas but I don't have the knlowledge to write a proper Article even in spanish... Rodrigocom012 (talk) 01:30, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Artigas, a Native Leader?

There is a theory that wishes that Artigas spent his youth with undocumented Tape Amerindinas in the hills (cuchillas) of the Banda Oriental who probably had themselves escaped from the War in Misiones. This theory speculates that Artigas learned Guarani language, married and had children and that when he resurfaced some 20 years later he was already a well respected and followed Native leader. This theory is interesting because it explains several aspects in the history of Artigas and of Uruguay which are otherwise difficult to explain:

a) Artigas' proposed land reform in his instructions to the Congress in Buenos Aires in 1813 privileged native Indians,

b) why Artigas "disappeared" from so long during his youth,

c) that he indeed had several children that were themselves Native leaders,

d) that at the peak of his power he was able to lead for almost two years, from his camp in "Purificación" a large country (it would have been the third largest in South America) referred to the "Protectorado de los Pueblos Libres", and that the leaders of most of the Argentinian territories that joined the Banda Oriental within that ill-fated Nation were themselves also Native leaders,

e) why, of all places, he emigrated to Paraguay (a then native country) to never return to his land of origin (one of his lieutenants, after becoming the first president of Uruguay, Don Fructuoso Rivera, ordered the execution of all the Indians - possibly because of their opposition to the privatization of the land - a book called Bernabé Bernabé by Tomás de Mattos captures this tragedy - Bernabé Rivera was Fructuosos brother),

f) that Prominent Argentinian leaders and intellectuals feared and loathed him and referred to him as "barbarous", leader of "montoneras", "enemy of the patriots" and "hostile to European civilization" (cf:. Domingo Faustino Sarmiento in "Facundo").

and

g) a very intriguing fact: Artigas' people when roaming the countriside used to make "fogones" (big camp-fires") and in this fogones they used to sing. We know that because the music that was sang in this fogones reached our days (cielitos and vidalitas). Yet, few if any of the lyrics that were sung has reached our days. (This fact had been pointed years ago by Prof. Lauro Ayestarán, a distinguished Uruguayan musicologist). One interpretation wishes that the lyrics in the Fogones de Artigas was sung in Guaraní and possibly other Native tongues (Charrúa, etc.).

Seen from this angle, Artigas is further from George Washington than from Tecumseh in what after the 1812 North American War would later become known as Canada. Perhaps a Native optic will one day be required to give Artigas its true dimension as one of the most meaningful Native and Metis (i.e., Gauchos) leaders in the Americas. As such he distances himself from the other independence leaders in the Americas (and actually he never fought for the "independence" of Uruguay but for a federalist association with the other former provinces of the Virreinato). At difference from most other independence leaders who at the end were vicorious, him, as all other Native leaders, was in the end defeated as were his people. History as used to be taught in Uruguayan schools presented an idealized pro-European Artigas, but again, none of those books were ever written in Guaraní or Charrúa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.213.39.203 (talk) 22:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

"Never Again Day"

The Wiki page for June 19 # Holidays and observances has an entry for "Never Again Day" which links to this page. But "Never Again Day" is not mentioned here. Is "Never Again Day" related to Artigas? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 14:00, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

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Many more citations needed

This article is very much lacking citations from the "Liga Federal" point on down. 69.34.52.195 (talk) 04:25, 25 October 2017 (UTC)