Talk:Jewish ethnic divisions/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

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The map-chart in the head of the article is pointless and inaccurate

This tagging of nations isn't needed and does the article no good. Ben-Yeudith (talk) 13:04, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree. It wasn't clear whether the intention was to show the contemporary distribution of Jewish ethnic groups or their historical origins (when?), but I think it was inaccurate in either case. Thank you for removing it. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 17:24, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

As you can see user:MShabazz, my edit was reverted; I hope you would revert the revert at least next time. Ben-Yeudith (talk) 01:56, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

@Ben-Yeudith: @MShabazz: Yeah, let's just drop this. I tried to see if I could make the picture work, I can't, it doesn't, end of discussion. I'll stop. BedrockPerson (talk) 18:58, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

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Is there bigotry among jews for other forms of judaism?

I didn't see anything in this article that addressed how individual Jewish sects view each other. In other religions, Christianity, Islam, etc., there is distinct rivalry and usually enmity between the different variants of the religion (Protestant c Catholic, Sunni v. Shiite, etc.) Is that not so in Judaism? In other words, are there cliches about Ashkenazic or Sephardic that the other groups ridicules or jokes about?98.219.126.182 (talk) 03:49, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

It is true in Judaism too. I'll let other people expand on that. Zero^talk 06:24, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Black Jews in America

I intend to edit this page and add a subsection about the black Jews in America. It will go under the section about ethnic divisions of Jews in the Americas. I will briefly and succinctly describe the group’s history and background in the same manner as the other groups mentioned in the article. Although there is no way to trace the ancestry of the black Jews in America back to Israeli Jews, they still consider themselves Jewish and I believe it would be a noteworthy contribution to the article. I will support this edit with Chosen People: The Rise of American Black Israelite Religions by Jacob S Dorman and his writings on their origin as a people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stein225 (talk • contribs) 19:56, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Hello, Stein225, and welcome to Wikipedia. I'm curious what you think the article should say about black Jews in the United States. Are you referring to Black Hebrew Israelites or traditional Jews who are black? In what way do you think they represent an "ethnic division" among the Jewish people? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:28, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

• Thanks Malik Shabazz. Yes, more detail would be useful. "Black Jews" could refer to blacks who converted or were born into "mainstream" Judaism, so it's not entirely clear who you have in mind. Also, why would black Jews in America trace their ancestry to Israeli Jews? Do you mean Israelite Jews? Perhaps consult your source on the terminology used. Finally, a more exact reference would be helpful re your secondary source. Is that a book or an article? When was it published? Thanks! Chapmansh (talk) 21:29, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

User:Stein225, above you proposed adding some material nearly two weeks ago. You didn't reply to either of the editors who responded to you. Instead you added a paragraph about "Black Jewish groups [that] began to form in the Americas among African slaves that were dislocated to the Caribbean". Are they considered a Jewish ethnic division? Are they considered Jews? Chosen People: The Rise of American Black Israelite Religions is primarily about Black Hebrew Israelites, not Jews. Can you cite the relevant pages of the book? Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:56, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxons

I've noticed in Israel that anglophones are lumped together as a group, and called Anglo-Saxons (even if they aren't English). They seem to approach becoming a group in their own right and are mostly Ashkenazi AFAIK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.82.189.9 (talk) 18:43, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

I believe Anglo#Israel is the meaning you are looking for. They are a major linguistic division, along with Russian-speaking, French-speaking and Spanish-speaking Jews (all notable topics), but I think few would call them an ethnic division.--Pharos (talk) 15:27, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Ostjuden

What is the relevant part of this article for the redirect Ostjuden - I am trying to link to this term from a new article I am writing, and this article does not do much to explain the foreign language term. The term is not used in the article at all. Maybe there is a more specific historical article this term could point to? Seraphim System ^(talk) 17:44, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

There is an article directly on this topic Eastern Jews in Germany (Q2035693) in German, Hebrew and Italian Wikipedias. We should probably have a distinct article in English too. That might have the wrong label on Wikidata, if the context we want to emphasize is the experience in Germany. Eastern European Jewry also sort of covers it, if you are looking for a non-migrant context.--Pharos (talk) 18:02, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Based on the historical context, I think this would be about Jews in Germany of Eastern European descent, mostly around the late 19th to early 20th century (before 1933). I haven't been able to find an article on this specific topic.Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:09, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

You probably want a new article based on the German/Hebrew/Italian articles.--Pharos (talk) 18:12, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Mizrahi

In the ethnic visions map why is Uzbekistan colored as a "special" group when they are part of the Mizrahi umbrella, while Afghanistan is colored as Mizrahi despite the fact that the majority of the Afghan Jewish community is derived from Uzbek Jewish immigrants who fled there following the Tsarist and Soviet conquest of Central Asia? Hondol (talk) 21:14, 24 June 2020 (UTC) comment added by 96.239.90.23 (talk) 16:18, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Presumably for the Bukharan Jews, which are considered a different community than the Mizrahi. I believe the Afghan communities are understood to have continuity with the Persian Jews. Next time, please only post once, or make explicit that you are posting multiple places. JesseRafe (talk) 18:22, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

In the page for Bukharan Jews it says "The Bukharan Jews are Mizrahi Jews[5] and have been introduced to and practice Sephardic Judaism.". Not to mention that Bukharan Jews themselves are, as you stated, a continuity of the Persian Jewish community. "Special" Jewish groups is just a PC way of saying "This particular Jewish group derives most of its ancestry from local converts" which is not the case for Bukharan Jews. Hondol (talk) 21:14, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

That's your OR and analysis. The page says they were an isolated community for centuries and made their own traditions and customs. Yes, they are Mizrahi, as are the Yemenites, in the strict sense, but they're still a distinct community. Also, the last bit about being Sephardic is patent nonsense and refers only to Israel's racist Ashkenazi or Sephardic rite choice in which most Mizrahi and other traditions are folded under Sephardic rabbis' aegis, but is not how they're actually derived as a community. You can miss me entirely if you want to discuss anything as "just a PC way of saying". You asked for an explanation for why they are "special" and you got one. I didn't make the map, but it looked pretty obvious what the rationale was and your history of Soviet intervention has nothing to do with anything. JesseRafe (talk) 12:43, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

EVERY Mizrahi community has their own unique traditions and customs. Mizrahi is just an umbrella term that refers to all Jews who lived of the East of Israel (which Uzbekistan is). Also just to get back to your point of Afghan Jews being a continuity of Persian Jews, here's a scientific study which compares various different Jewish groups and how genetically close they are to each other. You can go to page 15 on this PDF and you will see that Uzbekistan Jews cluster right next to Persian, Azerbaijani and Kurdish Jews (all of which are colored as Mizrahi on the map): https://rosenberglab.stanford.edu/papers/BeharEtAl2013-HumBiol.pdf. So if the criteria for being counted as Mizrahi is to be a continuity of another Mizrahi group then Uzbek Jews fit that by virtue of genetic closeness alone. Hondol (talk) 15:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Diaspora

I've deleted a passage that couldn't be parsed.

I also deleted the following sentence, because it assumed that some kind of context had been set by the previous passage (it hadn't, but the second deleted sentence at least made sense).

There's a possibility that the first deleted sentence can be made meaningful with punctuation (including perhaps parenthesis). But my opinion is that the passage is actually parts of two completely different sentences. No punctuation can fix that.

I also think that trying to extract meaning from the first sentence by twisting grammar, without knowing the author's mind, is not a good idea.

FWIW, I find much of the language in this section strained and awkward.

MrDemeanour (talk) 20:05, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

The Map

I do not think that the map is a very accurate representation of the jewish ethnic divisions and the wording of the key is confusing. Someone should make a better one, or maybe a map is unable to express this subject. Hawar jesser (talk) 22:17, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Stein225.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:13, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Carthage Jews

it's believed or claimed by Jewish sources they were in Carthage I'm not exactly sure what role but I'm assuming probably transfered goods to middle East and funded Hannibal. The phoecians were Greeks and disappeared after war but they were under Roman rule so it Was more a cold war the Greeks never had any power other than

Byzantine Empire the enjoyed a good there before ending. The extend of Jewish self claimed involvement goes alot deep I I would have figured I assumed Hannibal was leader of a war like tribe he gave slaves to sell in middleeast in return got ships and supplied but Hannibal wasn't as African as I thought or maybe someone is claiming more than I know but it certainly makes sense as to the relationships between Romans and the Middle East. 209.171.85.218 (talk) 20:58, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Also English Jews were property of the Crown

I think they still are umm they enjoyed Many privileges even more than Englishmen in some periods they problem was one the Habsburgs hated them which for them constant Holocausts but more so the loaned many not only to both sides in wars but actually started funding both sides so once and awhile someone would decide they didn't wanna pay and they were expelled or worse but was relatively stable for them briton had signed the abolition of slavery while English Jews were selling slaves to the Spanish, Sir francis Drake married a Jewish woman but after his first expedition he handed over the loot to the queen that was common law but after that he lost trust he enjoyed high status but you can see no Englishmen really talk to him because of his slaves trade however he was not hated he was liked just not trusted like Sir walter raleigh or the Queen's 1rst man because of this freedom British defeated Spanish Armada although ship numbers looked even these were the vest in the world under Spanish rule but there leadership is all rich royals people like Drake aren't allowed power so this is really wins the day England uses fireships because really have no chance and they get lucky but if the had of recruited talent like Drake or Scandinavian, Spanish Armada would have certainly won. This number look even but England has maybe a handful of ships only 5 were even close maybe 10 total fighting ships 120total against 130 top of the line Spanish leadership was always terrible,shortly after Spain's troops were ranked 2nd in the world England 1rst the ration was 10-1 one English was worth 10 Spanish. Prussia may have been wondering around somewhere but just as a free army no king or leaders mostly farmers and skilled workers. Anyway you probably Wana hear about Drake and Henry they were Jewish friends they wee from the same town they went a slave selling expedition and Drake left Henry behind for whatever reasons and Henry whined and fell into his role Drake really was good at what he did but to think he didn't have some relations with Spanish would be contrary to his nature they feared but really he lacked back up he was just to cunning for the average Spanish people they were suppressed him and his Jewish wife experienced more Freedom than most and even though he wasn't trusted he was held high and reveared against the Spanish. He had an interest the the news paper especially his own popularity I don't know exactly what his wife or her father did but it's started with the news and turned into adventure and slave running in the Spanish Carribean. As barons and Yeomen restricted the power of the King and Jew an in resting rank of marquis appear just above baron although that where my knowledge ends many other Jews captained some entire crews and all so that pretty impressive for property of the Crown. 209.171.85.218 (talk) 21:20, 9 May 2023 (UTC)