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Latest comment: 9 years ago by JzG in topic RfC: What content should be used in the "Ideologies" section of the ISIL infobox?
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RfC: What content should be used in the "Ideologies" section of the ISIL infobox?

Latest comment: 9 years ago48 comments10 people in discussion
The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
No consensus for inclusion of fascism, whihc was probably the point at issue. The balance is probably stale. Guy (Help!) 12:02, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Content that has, at various times, previously been included in "Ideologies" section of the infobox include:

  • Sunni Islam/Sunni Islamism, Anti-Shiaism[5], Extremist Islamism, Fascism, Salafism, Salafist Jihadism, Takfirism, Wahhabism

(and these entries represent all the content that I have found when trawling through the article's revision history).

Results (which just mean that sets of wording happen to be found in some way on the same pages) relating to this content are as follows:

At most recent edit the ideologies were edited to/down to:

  • Salafist jihadism
  • Salafism[6][7]

Editor comment would be welcome on this but I suggest that a content might be:

I also provisionally think that the selectivity of "facism" has a great relevance, so also:

I think that justification for inclusion of "Salafism" may be weak. I don't think that there is justification for inclusion of "Salafist Jihadism" which is a neologism and which, in any case, seems to me to be synonymous with "Salafism" and "Wahhabism". Despite the fact that one of the clear drives within the group has been to engage with proponent of Shia Islam, I don't think that a reference to Anti-Shiaism is supported. However, given the context of its religious cleansing and persecution of people who do not share the groups Sunni based philosophies, I think that a reference to "Sunni Islam" is warranted.

I thought to raise the subject here to hopefully protect the content from wp:tendentious editing. If it is possible to establish the relevance of the ideologies here I don't see that there would be relevance of including source references to the content in the article. The validity of one of the ideological references is not increased because an editor has found that a particular source has made that reference to the group.

Here are notifications to/of contributory editors

  • @Nulla Taciti: removed [[Takfirism]] and [[Anti-Shi'ism|Anti-Shiaism]] in Revision as of 20:30, 16 January 2015
  • @Imfeelyoung: changed [[Sunni Islam|Sunni]] [[Islamism]]<br />[[Wahhabi|Salafism]] → [[Extremist]] [[Islamism]]<br />[[Wahhabi]]<br/>[[Salafist Jihadism]] in Revision as of 10:09, 23 January 2015
  • @Ritsaiph: removed [[Extremist]] [[Islamism]] in Revision as of 01:36, 11 February 2015
  • @Mbcap: added [[Salafism]]<ref name="NS">... in Revision as of 19:11, 15 February 2015
  • @Fraytel: added [[Fascism]] <ref>... in Revision as of 19:30, 21 February 2015
  • @KahnJohn27: removed [[Wahhabism]]<ref>...<br />...[[Fascism]] <ref>.. in Revision as of 12:21, 22 February 2015
  • @Vietcong nuturlizer: changed [[Salafism]] → [[Wahhabism]] in Revision as of 22:28, 22 February 2015
  • @Mbcap: changed [[Wahhabism]] → [[Salafism]] in Revision as of 22:53, 22 February 2015

GregKaye 12:27, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

GregKaye's research shows that fascism is the most well-supported ideology as per reliable sources, from among the proposed terminologies. The second-most supported terminology is Wahhabism, and we may mention both, they have not been rejected by any reliable source I know of. We may also add to it: extremism (as per GregKaye's earlier research found here). Some other terminologies, especially controversial neologisms like "Islamism", have been shown to have explicitly rejected in reliable sources. Including the controversial neologisms in the infobox would be making this article biased and non-neutral. So in conclusion: I think only "fascism" and "Wahhabism" should both be mentioned in the ideology section of the infobox, and possibly "extremism" as well. Khestwol (talk) 14:27, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Khestwol "Extremism" is not in itself an ideology. I do not necessarily see that their motivation is to be extreme. I think that they have particular and specific motivations which come first and these these run to levels and along routes that commentators widely interpret to be extreme. GregKaye 17:44, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Please read the article for Takfiri: this theological term has become a sectarian

insult when used by more extremist Shia factions like Hezbollah, or questionable news sources like Press TV (a Tehran propaganda outlet). Wikipedia policies prohibit the use of such terms. Also Wahhabi should not be used as this is also used pejoratively. As for fascism? That is just inaccurate—fascism is a secular ideology, ISIS are Islamic extremists. Also using this latter term evokes the cringeworthy Islamofascism label. Nulla Taciti (talk) 16:06, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Nulla Taciti, The article on the topic Takfiri begins, "A takfiri (Arabic: تكفيري‎ takfīrī) is a Muslim who accuses another Muslim (or an adherent of another Abrahamic faith) of apostasy." As far as I can see, this is exactly what the group has done time and time and time again. Its habitual. Besides this it is a term that has been widely used in relation to the group and this warrants comment. Given the prevalence of this use I was surprised to see that previous reference to Takfiri within the text has been removed and this strikes me as a sign of tendentious editing.
A useful source on fascism may be the article on definitions of fascism. A major theme seems to be a tendency towards dictatorship and that a "fascist regime" is foremost an authoritarian form of government". I agree that this form of behaviour may well be regarded as cringeworthy but, if the description is apt and well cited, then it should be included. Italy is a predominantly religious country and, in the time of WWII and to arguably his shame, the Pope supported its fascism. I do not see that fascism is an exclusively secular term. GregKaye 17:26, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
We don't even need to use "Takfiri" if we can use the more inclusive and the more supported term "Wahhabism". Khestwol (talk) 17:38, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
GregKaye you aren't addressing the key part of what I was saying: Takfiri is a sectarian hate word. It absolutely can't be used in this context. If you can find a source where ISIS specifically refer to themselves as Wahhabi, that is fine, although I doubt you'll be able to find such a source for "fascism". Personally I think the ideology section is fine as it is. Nulla Taciti (talk) 19:00, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
See the Zelin & Smyth article "The vocabulary of sectarianism" (can be easily found on Google). Nulla Taciti (talk) 19:19, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Nulla Taciti I think that you are confusing accurate description with self designation. The question as to whether the group likes or uses the description is irrelevant. The only question is accuracy. We are here to build an accurate encyclopaedia. We do not toe party lines. Takfiri is an accurate description that is widely used. When ISIL persecutes and kills Sunnis that don't follow their view of things, Shias and more or less everyone else I think that it is perfectly possible that they will receive hate from some quarters. This, however, is irrelevant. Just because people may or may not have emotion is of no relevance to the use of accurate description. BTW if any of the other groups involved are indicated to be Takfiri then these issues should also be fairly addressed. We cannot show bias or partiality here. GregKaye 19:41, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Takfiri isn't even an "ideology". Takfiri is a very specific Islamic theological term that has been used as a sectarian slur. It isn't accurate or appropriate for the ideology section, and that has nothing to do with whether ISIS "likes" the designation/description. Nulla Taciti (talk) 20:01, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

The ideology section is accurate the way it is in reference to Salafism. Salafi Jihadism I am not sure about. Jihadism has always been part of Salafism and Salafism has always been part of Sunni Islam. The google searches have to be taken with a pinch of Salt because the results do not only include reliable sources. Salafi Jihadism and Salafism both has been attributed to this group by the latest report to have come from the Brookings institute. Facism is not a label used in referring to this group by reliable sources. Wahabism is used but its use is not as prevalent as that of Salafism. Mbcap (talk) 20:23, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Mbcap top of the list of the search on fascism (which by far outstrips all related searches in terms of the number of its results) is an article from the Huffington Post. GregKaye 09:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Greg I will answer below. Mbcap (talk) 15:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Salafi Jihadism is more accurate than just Salafism, as the later refers to millions of people around the world, including those that explicitly reject political violence (see Madkhalism). Salafist Jihadism is an academic term used specifically for those that have come out of the Salafi tradition that do accept political violence, such as Al Qaeda etc. As Nulla Taciti has stated, Takfiri is a pejorative and occasionaly sectartian word (and one that IS has explicitly rejected) and is inappropriate to use in an encyclopaedia. Wahhabism is essentially a "politically incorrect" term for Salafism and one that is considered pejorative by Salafis around the world. While the group has certain fascist attributes, I would be uncomfortable with us explicitly saying it has a fascist ideology, as they probably don't fall within the formal definition of the word. Gazkthul (talk) 22:02, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
I oppose the use of "fascism". Authoritarianism would be less inaccurate from my POV, but I doubt will be added. I have no opinion beyond that on the rest of the suggested labels atm. Banak (talk) 23:21, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Oppose "fascism." The Islamic State's ideology, which is of a religious nature, is not on the same universe, let alone the same plane, as fascism, which is a devil's brew of dirigisme, national syndicalism, with elements of left-wing politics, and is in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and traditional conservatism. It's all clearly explained in the Wikipedia entry for "Fascism" in case anyone is curious.
With regard to the Islamic State, why don't we just settle for the BBC's description, which reads, and I quote: "Islamic State (IS) is a radical Islamist group that has seized large swathes of territory" XavierItzm (talk) 03:38, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
"Fascism" provides very accurate representation of this and several Islamic extremist groups but I think it is fair to me say that I think that the term Islamofascism is as, to me, as questionable as Islamic terrorism. Islam as a whole is not generally characterised as either fascist or terrorist. And, in the second case I would prefer "Islamist terrorism" as more accurate. However, in specific instances, a clear principle of accurate and truthful representation is well demonstrated in the phrase [dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/if-the-cap-fits-wear-it if the cap fits (wear it).]
See Huffington post ISIS and Clerical Fascism and the American Muslim Is it Accurate to Call ISIS Fascist? GregKaye 09:23, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Is there a serious proposal to use a blog entry at the Huffington Post and a propaganda website as if these were WP:RS? These can only be condoned if there is substantial peer review agreement, and in any event, wouldn't the BBC's definition that "Islamic State (IS) is a radical Islamist group that has seized large swathes of territory" have primacy over such weak sauce "sources"? XavierItzm (talk) 12:19, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Gazkthul hit the nail on the head; Wahhabism is essentially a "politically incorrect" term for Salafism, and it is often used by Shia groups to disparagingly refer to all Sunnis. So obviously Wahhabism, fascism, and certainly not the non existent ideology of takfiri(sm) are appropriate. All these terms are essentially used in a derogatory manner, and 2/3 carry unpleasant sectarian connotations. Nulla Taciti (talk) 15:31, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
XavierItzm I agree with you that "Islamist" is a better term for this group. As for radical; I am not sure. The ideology of this group is through and through Salafi. They have been called both Salafist and Jihadi Salafist by the majority of reliable sources. These two would be accurate names for the groups ideology. What has to be understood is that the Ideology of a given Muslim is depended on the Aqeeda or creed which they follow. Islamic State follows the Aqa'id of the Salaf which is known as Athar. This can be seen in their literature where they quote the Salaf and the scholars who followed them after, on endless occasions. A good analysis of the groups Ideology is contained within this document[1], written by Cole Bunzel from Princeton University. As for Fascism, Google news searches are not a good way to ascertain the popularity of a give word within reliable sources as the search is unable to sift out unreliable sources including blogs. As for Wahhabism, it is a derogatory term for someone who is a Salafi. All Wahhabi's follows the Athari Aqeeda so they too are Salafi's. Mbcap (talk) 15:43, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

First thing to point out is that I get the impression that to use Salafist terms would be to use minority terminology as per searches in books:

Here are some other results in books

Mbcap per your suggestion:

again this is a minority term.

The problem with the use of the term Islamist without qualification is that it if is a gross misrepressentation of reality. The group is primarily at war with other people of Mohammedan based faiths, Shias, Sufis and other Sunnis as well. To say that they are working to advance the cause of political Islam without giving any indication of an interpretation of Islam that was being promoted would be flagrantly dishonest.

We have to present honest and representational content. I opened the thread #Has ISIL done any good? really just opening things up to see if we might be suppressing positives about the group. On the same token I think it is valid to ask about a fair and representational view about their ideology. PLEASE keep in mind that Wikipedia is not here to WP:CENSOR content. We have to present the big picture. GregKaye 17:59, 15 March 2015 (UTC) results edited added to, GregKaye 20:52, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Greg I appreciate that we do not censor information and I would not wish that anyway. I would also agree that we have to present the big picture. I will make the following points:
  • I have no idea how google books returned so many results because as far as I am aware, there are only one or two books which have been published on this group so it is not possible to get so many results. This is one of the reasons why we should not rely too often on Google searches. Even within the results served, one word can be in one paragraph and the other in the second whilst the issues discussed may be different.
  • Islamist is a label that has been used by reliable sources so I do not see why we cannot use it. Yes they do fight other groups which include Muslims and Non-Muslims. They regard anyone who does not rule according to the Qur'an to be unbelievers so they fight them for that reason. We have to keep an eye on the bigger picture here too. This group was acting in this fashion since its inception. When Zarqawi was running things, they were behaving in a similar manner; killing Shia's and destroying shrines and their mosques. Bind Laden at the time thought this was bad PR so they engaged in extensive discourse to make Zarqawi change course. What was interesting though was that, at no point did Bin Laden or Zawahiri say that they were going against their version of Islam but that it was simply bad PR at the wrong time. This has been discussed extensively by Scheuer in his books Imperial Hubris, and America and Islam after Iraq. I understand this is original research but I wish to explain my position. Even discounting this, they are referred to as islamists by a wide array of reliable sources.
  • In all my reading of the different ideologies of Islam which include; Athari, Ash'ari, Maturidi, Mu'tazilla, Murjia, Khawarij, Ithna Ash'ari, Alawi and Esmaili, I would say that their ideology falls squarely into Athari which is the creed of the Salafi school. This has been attested to by reliable sources including the Guardian and the Brookings institute. The latter labels them two folds; Salafists and Jihadi Salafists. In their report in the appendix, their ideology is detailed point by point.
  • In terms of positives for the group; we can certainly document such things if reliable sources are presented.
Mbcap (talk) 19:29, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Mbcap The only reason that I have presented the search data is that, after looking at the history of the editing of the ideologies content, I regarded that editors did not necessarily have much genuine interest in the actual definitions of the terms and their applicability. There has certainly been utter disregard to the preponderance of the usage of the terms. Let's get this straight. Sunni Islam is by far the largest faction amongst Mohammedan faiths and the extremists that are known as Wahhabists or Salafists are a significant group amongst them. Regardless of this Wahhabi terminologies are the ones that are most predominantly used. They also add direct and accurate description and, by rights, it would be easy to recommend Wahhabism to be the one reference made, or at least to present Wahhabism first. My suggestion of presenting "Salafism/Wahhabism" gives more than enough ground and, if anything, goes too far in regard to compromise.
I honestly do not think that you have taken it on board that this group kills people who have an equal regard for themselves as being Islamic. How can we make unqualified reference to them as being an Islamist group? They kill muslims/"muslims". Where is the NPOV in calling them Islamist? Where? What kind of Islamism are they following? Where is the perspective here? The Jordanians write enemies of Islam on their bombs and you want Wikipedia to declare, in its own voice, that they are fighting for Islam. This is utterly ridiculous. We cannot push POV. You may perhaps decide that they are being faithful to Islam but we cannot push original research or individual opinion here. Sources may, on occasion, make passing reference to them as being Islamist. What we are doing in the ideologies section is, by nature, presenting something definitive.
Despite the fact that the group recently burnt alive a Jordanian, Sunni Muslim prisoner of war, I think that a reasonable base for a definition would be "Sunni Islamism". The context remains that many do not regard them as being representative of the Sunnis and certainly that they are not representative of Islam. None the less, one of the defining issues of the group is that they are sectarian .. very sectarian and i think that it is reasonable that something along these lines be clear in our presentation.
The descriptions of Fascism, Takfirism remain very apt. GregKaye 21:40, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Is this an encyclopaedia or a Google popularity contest fuelled by WP:OR? Please bring WP:RS that are substantive to the case, or use what we already have, i.e., the BBC having defined the Islamic State as "radical Islamist." XavierItzm (talk) 21:43, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
XavierItzm As a British citizen it (genuinely) pains me to say that the BBC also considered Jimmy Saville, despite ongoing occurrences of misbehaviour, to be safe to work with children. Questions about their various seeming irrational biases abound and, from personal view point which is still pained to say, I count them to be one of the least reliable of RS. They cover up, are unaccountable and have a policy of not permitting reader comment on their content. Its a closed shop that I consider to be a cause for concern on a number of issues all of which can be researched. Your repetition seven times of your one BBC source on this page does not make it any more valid. Of course predominance of use is an issue but the predominance of the quotation of a single source is not. I have no problem in saying that radical Islamist is a lesser used description of ISIL. There ideology is very clearly more specific than that. They do not equally promote all of what is commonly called Islam. GregKaye 09:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
And there should be no issue with using RS other than the BBC's definition of the Islamic State as "radical Islamist". As you say, if there are other RS that call it something else, fine, please add them to the article and then the article can say something along the lines of "some have defined the Islamic State as "x", some have defined it as "y" and some have defined as "z." Some may classify the IS as a bunch of Mahometan thugs; however, if there are no RS calling them such, it can't be added to the page, and no, Google popularity contests should not be alternative to RS. XavierItzm (talk) 17:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Greg I cannot speak for other editors but as to myself, I do take interest in the nomenclature related to this topic. I agree that there was utter disregard to the preponderance of the usage of the terms but that issue is rectified with the current content in the infobox. Their ideology as described by reliable sources is Salafism and Salafist Jihadism. Your suggestion that Wahhabism is the predominant attributed ideology is false.

As to their actions, I do not wish to hold a discussion on this. My comment on the Islamist label was because Xavierltzm has provided a source for it, that being the BBC which is a very reliable source. Regarding the various question you ask; I would say that we simply write what reliable sources say. It is NPOV if reliable sources say X is the ideology and we document it so. Sources may make a passing reference to them being Islamist but that is also the case with reference to Wahhabism. In this regard, we can take a consistent approach so we can include both or leave out both. However their identification with Salafism is well substantiated and covered in detail by the Brookings report, as well as with less detail, in other sources.

Yes we can use Sunni Islamism if sources use this attribution but Salafism and Salafist Jihadism will have to get most weight due to reasons stated above. Fascism and Takfirism are not labels corroborated by reliable sources. It is irrelevant if I think they are representative of Islam or not. You say we cannot push opinion here. May I ask, who do you think is doing so?

Lastly XavierItzm do you know of other sources which call them Islamist? I would do it myself but time wise I am constrained. Mbcap (talk) 19:19, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah. The Telegraph states it right there at the top of its section dedicated to IS: "Islamic State is a radical Islamist group which has seized territory across northern and western Iraq and eastern Syria.". Let me know if you need more. XavierItzm (talk) 18:16, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Seeing as how they call themselves a caliphate and Abu-Bakr al- Baghadi called for all Muslims to obey him, I think Pan-Islamism can also be listed as their ideology just like it is of Al-Qaeda. KahnJohn27 (talk) 14:18, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Agree with you KahnJohn27 that these thugs are, among other things, pan-islamists. However, the Wikipedia can only go by WP:RS. Do you have one? Otherwise, we'll just have to go with the WP:RS we do have, such as: "Islamic State is a radical Islamist group" (The Guardian) and "Islamic State (IS) is a radical Islamist group" (the BBC). XavierItzm (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 21:49, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Apologies, after starting discussion here, I have stepped back as much of my wikipedia time has been absorbed with involvements surrounding this discussion and, again, Israel. My research on Wahhabism only went as far as a proponderance of comment that the group is influenced by Wahhabists of the past. In line with comments that you have already made a first article found (from Brookings Institution). The content of the document] talks of "The Islamic State’s Brand of Jihadi-Salafism" which indicates a brand of Mbcap's suggestion.
This result was found from a web search on: "the ideology" AND (isil OR isis OR daesh OR "islamic state") AND (iraq OR syria OR baghdadi OR mosul) which can also be conducted in books and scholar. I will have to do some more reading with time although a few of the scholar papers required subscription.
XavierItzm I agree that "Radical Islamist" is used within the press as a description of the group. My problem is that this description isn't very specific. Radical can either mean doing the whole thing greatly, that it is working at an extreme agenda within the whole or a mixture of the two. Sunni Islamism and Jihadi-Salafism at least specifies a bit. GregKaye 15:34, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
If there is discomfort with the adjective "radical" which qualifies the noun "islamist," you can always just drop he adjective and stick with the noun. It's like saying "sweet love" and, not feeling the adjective "sweet" appropriate, just sticking with "love." In that case, the sentence could read: "Islamic State is an Islamist group."
Having said that, we should stick with WP:RS, and since the above cited WP:RS read "radical islamist", that's what should be used, no matter how "unspecific" it might appear to some. The Wikipedia should reflect WP:RS, not feelings. Thanks, XavierItzm (talk) 15:44, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
XavierItzm So we go to sources that have some level of credential in assessing issues like ideology. The idea of presenting an unqualified definition of this group as Islamist is preposterous. They just burnt a Sunni Islamic pilot. They wage war with groups that also claim to be Islamic and that don't do un-Islamic things like cutting the heads off aid workers. Which form of Islam are they promoting exactly? GregKaye 21:00, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Is there a Wikipedia policy to ascribe "superior" WP:RS to one source or another, as it seems advocated on the preceding comment? Otherwise, the BBC and The Telegraph's cited definition of "Islamic State is a radical islamist group" seem quite appropriate. With regard to the question "Which form of Islam are they promoting exactly?", it is hard to say. All one can say is that they say they follow the precepts of Mahomet. XavierItzm (talk) 21:46, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Now this discussion seems to be going out of hand. Let's all cool down here. First of all I think Islamic extremism or Islamic radical can't be both used here since people following both of these ideologies aren't always necessarily violent. I think Islamic terrorism is the better term suited for here. Second, none of this however ever implies that people following these ideologies are completely "Islamic" or they are following the true religion of Islam. It's just implying that the ideologies of these people are based on their interpretation of Islam. All interpretations aren't necessarily correct. KahnJohn27 (talk) 09:01, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
XavierItzm, We have got to a point where WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT is becoming more applicable. Please note the difference between a description of the group and the description of its ideology. As a parallel, I could describe myself as a mammal and yet this does not say a great deal about what let alone who I am. This is something that is further governed by my genetic make up and my personal path of development. I am perfectly in agreement that "radical Islamist" is a description of the group but all its boldface usage on this page (bordering on WP:SHOUTing) will not make it an ideology. You understand that this will not make this an ideology. I agree that their ideology constitutes a form of radical Islamism but can you find an RS that says that their ideology is "Radical Islamism"? You state, "All one can say is that they say they follow the precepts of Mahomet". There is far, far more that "one can say" due to the fact that this group wages war against and kills practitioners of Sunni, Shia and Sufi Islam who may similarly make the claim that "they follow the precepts of Mahomet". An inclusion of "Radical Sunni Islamist" might be more closely descriptive of their actual ideology.
As far as descriptions go: Fascism and Takfirism seem to me to fit the group extremely well but, as is rightly noted, this must be backed up by sources whose attribution can be relied upon in relation to the particular topic. GregKaye 10:36, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
When the BBC[1] and The Telegraph[2] both write that "Islamic State is a radical islamist organisation", they are making reference to an ideology. They could have written that IS is "an armed group" (making reference to a bellicose position) or "an extortionist mafia" (making reference to a type of association), but instead we have two WP:RS making unambiguous reference to the ideology that animates it. XavierItzm (talk) 15:02, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
XavierItzm That is understood. Isil have a form of radical Islamist ideology. They also have a form of Islamic extremist ideology. They also have a form of religious ideology. The question here is not which sphere or spheres their ideology is found. The relevant questions are what is their ideology and how can it be accurately and meaningfully be described?
Without this we might just go back to me calling myself a mammal.
Perhaps another analogy might help. Please consider sport as a more friendly potential parallel. The ideology of most sports teams is not typically defined as the promotion of that sport. Instead the sports teams are competitive. Making the comparison to Isil, this group has a very specific brand of Islam and they apply it by wanting to bring other groups like the al-Nusra Front and Hamas into submission. They will not only compete. They kill so as to pursue domination against other "clubs". They are also more presently focussed in dealing with clubs like Hamas than they are in addressing rival "sports" like Judaism.
So what is the ideology of Isil? It has something more specific than just a "religious" ideology; something more specific than an "Islamic" ideology; something more specific than an "Islamist" ideology and, as far as I can see, something more specific than a "Salafist" ideology or a "Jihadi Salafist" ideology. The Brookings report speaks of "The Islamic State’s Brand of Jihadi-Salafism" and I think that it may be fair to say that they have a "variant form of of Jihadi-Salafism".
Any editor research into how the group's actual "ideology" is actually interpreted would be appreciated. I have found one possible reference from the Brookings institute. GregKaye 18:39, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Greg and XavierItzm you both raise interesting points about the group. The problem here is, that we have a limited space within the ideology section of the infobox to document all of this. Because this topic is notable, I have created the article Ideology of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, which at the moment is laughable in quality as I did not have the time to adequately expand the article but it is a suitable place where we can document all that reliable sources have said about the ideology of this group. Hopefully we can give due weight to all the different qualifications that have been given. The group is variously described as Jihadi Salafist, Salafist, Islamist, Sunni Islamist etc. I do not remember where, but I think I have also come across Takfirism in a source but it is not so prevalent. There are also other labels such as radical, extremist, terrorist and so on and so forth. I am not sure how relavent this is to their ideolgy but a thorough discussion will only improve the content we have. Mbcap (talk) 19:26, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Mbcap At least in current condition this looks truely excellent. The wording, IMO, covers things well: "The ideology of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant is based on Salafi-Jihadism and Salafism.   Thank you "Based on", "stems from", it roughly the same thing. GregKaye 19:43, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
With regard to the request for "research into how the group's actual "ideology" is actually interpreted" as requested above, here is what the BBC states about it:
* The group aims to establish a "caliphate", a state ruled by a single political and religious leader according to Islamic law, or Sharia.
* IS members are jihadists who adhere to an extreme interpretation of Sunni Islam and consider themselves the only true believers.
* They hold that the rest of the world is made up of unbelievers who seek to destroy Islam, justifying attacks against other Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
These are straight quotes from the WP:RS, to be found at this link at the BBC's website. I hope it is useful to you in trying to determine the ideology of the jihadists. XavierItzm (talk) 01:10, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

@GregKaye: I think you can swap the word "Salafist" with the more supported word "Wahhabist" in the infobox. We can go by the terminology that more reliable sources consider them. Khestwol (talk) 02:37, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

XavierItzm I agree that with the base content that you present and suggest that a presentation such as Extremist Sunni Islamism would be descriptive. The rest of the world is, in many parts, eager to protect educational rights to citizens on a range of subjects such as Darwin's theory of evolution and the cultural history of the world and also to protect the equal rights of women. Many may argue that a belief system in an invisible entity that authorises them to kill aid workers and run entire communities up mountains certainly needs to be dealt with. Also, when a group has expansionist policies where they threaten to place "the black flag" on various iconic buildings of other cultures around the world, then this will be responded to. This is a group that is determined to wipe out other cultures and identities as has been most clearly shown in the treatment of the Yazidis and the bulldosing of some of the world's most precious cultural sites. (BTW I have long thought that west deserves a good measure of comparable contempt due to their abject failure to protect locations such as museums from looting at the time of the Iraqi invasion).
As mentioned I would recommend searches on: "the ideology" AND (isil OR isis OR daesh OR "islamic state") AND (iraq OR syria OR baghdadi OR mosul) which can also be conducted in books and scholar. I have no reason to believe that the news media have certain credibility in assessing ethics and ideologies especially within considerations of the ethics of the media.
Khestwol the many related results that I have seen on Wahhabism mainly relate to ISIL having taken on aspects of Wahhabist teaching but, for some unknown reason, the sources have tended to more directly describe the group by the lesser used term Salafist.
I also think that there is relevance in that Jihadism is a neologism and that there little if any discernible difference between Salafism and Salafist Jihadism. The Jihad in the Koran is about the defense within the individual lives of believers of their own spirituality and the defense of believing communities from outside attack. This is an aggressive group that attacks other communities. Similar groups describe themselves as "mujahideen" but their ideologies have little to do with scriptural jihad. GregKaye 03:49, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
That is very correct, the medieval jihad or the jihad described in the scriptures is totally different from the ISIL "jihad". Perhaps we have to remove "jihadism" also, and leave only either "Wahhabism" or "Salafism"? Note: it is only one user who has been trying to put "Salafism" in the infobox and remove "Wahhabism" in February 2015 in undiscussed edits. Khestwol (talk) 16:12, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
The following WP:RS address the issue of the jihadists of Islamic State:
* "The Islamic State, like al-Qaeda, identifies with a movement in Islamic political thought known as Jihadi-Salafism, or jihadism for short" - Brookings Institution.
* "IS members are jihadists" - The BBC
* "On most matters of doctrine, Maqdisi and the Islamic State agree. Both are closely identified with the jihadist wing of a branch of Sunnism called Salafism" - The Atlantic
To anyone considering deleting the word "jihadist" from the infobox: please provide WP:RS that support any such contention. XavierItzm (talk) 23:46, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
There are important differences between Salafism and Salafist Jihadism. Salafism is the ideology of many millions of Muslims around the world, including pluralities in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Kuwait. Salafist Jihadism is a small offshoot that is followed by a fraction of the people, and is the ideology of violent non state actors such as Al Qaeda, IS, Al Shabaab and others. To put it into context, Salafists consider Saudi Arabia to be run by good, Allah-fearing men, whereas Salafist Jihadists consider them to be Tyrants and Apostates worthy of death. Gazkthul (talk) 03:57, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Definitely oppose fascism; identifying the primary ideology of a state can't be done just by looking at the count of Google searches. That shows that it has been compared to fascism, sure, and that's definitely enough of a reason to look up good sources and discuss the issue in depth in the article (who has described it as fascist, what their arguments are, what features it has in common with it, what responses there are to that description if any exist, etc), but I don't think that that's nearly enough to put fascism as part of their official ideology in the infobox, where we can't really present any nuance. Putting it there feels like it basically implies that it has a direct ideological descent from Mussolini et all, which I think is a hard sell without much better and more detailed sources identifying it as such. --Aquillion (talk) 07:06, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29052144
  2. ^ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Official name

Latest comment: 9 years ago40 comments14 people in discussion
  • This is only discussing one of the alternative titles, not the article title (i.e. not the name of the article). Discussions of the article title should not be done in this section. Widefox; talk 01:11, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  • The official name is Islamic State. That should be listed as such in the lede as a valid alternative title (irrespective of the current title per WP:COMMONNAME). It is against policy to hide per WP:CENSOR or disagree with that fact per WP:NPOV. The argument that the name is invalid as it is self-chosen is folly. Organisations chose their own name (generally). Attempts to delegitimise the name by that argument seem to be conflating the factual organisation name with the controvercial territorial claim (which of course the name asserts). That valid argument is best utilised in discussing the legitimacy backing the name as a self-proclaimed caliphate and unrecognised country, which is important, and should be detailed per WP:BALANCE and WP:WEIGHT but not used in delegitimising the latest of a string of names this group call themselves this minute.
  • User:Legacypac and User:Ljgua124 re this undo [2], if we can not conflate the legitimacy of the name and the legitimacy of the territorial claim there may be a way forward. Widefox; talk 10:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Official name according to who? Groups do not get to pick their own name without restriction. I can't form "The United States" or "The Catholic Church" and expect anyone to call my group that. If I want to form a legal group in Canada/Iraq or Syria I need to register the name with the government. They are not a legally registered anything. They are not any kin of country either according to all reliable sources. The world community generally rejects the territorial claims (claim of up to the entire world), religious claim (all muslims must follow) and political claims (all governments are void) and the name that demands all this. What is in it for you to push terrorist propaganda at Wikipedia that goes against the condemnation of many world leaders, muslim leaders, and the standard name DAESH used in the region? Your proposed name has been rejected here repeatedly, so why push again unless you are trying to push the terrorist agenda? Legacypac (talk) 10:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Legal registration means nothing when it comes to militant groups. The group has called itself 'Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant', and that was considered legitimate, but removing that describer somehow makes it less legitimate? And we are talking here about the legitimacy of the name, not the territorial claim. The two are independent of each other - just because the name the group identifies itself with changes, it does not mean their integrity changes too. The name is self-styled but there's no reason to pursue a practice of undermining a name change. Mind you, the name is recognised.. I see "IS" and "Islamic State" being used daily on television, to undermine a globally acknowledged change of name seems a pointless exercise. This is a global encyclopedia and I believe it should reflect that in at least being passive and impartial towards whatever this group decides to call itself. It is our job to record history, not try and influence it.Ljgua124 (talk) 10:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
WP:NPOV forms a basis for a major argument here. The group has unilaterally made an unfortunate contraction to their name in the claim of being the Islamic State, as caliphate, to purportedly all of Islam and the world. This is a group that burns purportedly Sunni Muslim prisoners of war, that will behead aid workers and a Japanese man that only came to plead for the liberty and release of another prisoner and that has bombs aimed at it inclusive of the, I think justified, writing "enemies of Islam". We can indicate the groups claims here but we can't indicate such far reaching claims in Wikipedia's voice. Other organisations may fail in regard to their standards of NPOV. This is no reason for Wikipedia to do likewise. Isis, Isil and Daesh remain in common currency. They are all reflective of a name chosen by the group and, in a form such as Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, provision is made for natural disambiguation.
The use of Wikipedia designation is not, I think, done to delegitimise the group. Legitimacy and legality is a matter to be worked out within the context of neighbouring nations and in the wider international sphere. Even under the ISI and ISIL names they were not regarded as a state. The difference now is the contested claim of being the Islamic state in regard to people who don't agree. GregKaye 11:31, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict with above)
Can we hold off on the name changes at least until we finish being reviewed for A-class article status (or a month, whichever is shortest)? We just had failed move request to Islamic State, so the name is not about to change to Islamic State, however much I believe policy says we should. We are getting nowhere, and we could instead by working on improving the article or other projects. I disagree with Greg's argument, but for some reason in our many past discussions we have been unable to get anywhere
Also, I'd be interested to see if anyone would be interested in Requesting mediation over this and one or two other issues, such as quotes from the Quran? Banak (talk) 11:43, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
We don't need mediation - we need to follow our NPOV policy and the sources which we have generally found do NOT use only "Islamic State" but instead qualify it or use ISIS or ISIL or so called or "group" etc. The name has been stable on Wikipedia since at least Aug 2013 and does not need to change. Legacypac (talk) 17:33, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment User:Banak Legacypac in case this is in any way not clear....this is not about changing the article name. That is a separate issue per WP:COMMONNAME. This is not about COMMONNAME.
  • Legacypac if you're actually serious that you think a bunch of people can't call themselves whatever they want (compare with for example an unincorporated organisation), then who do they ask? Your point about using one that doesn't infringe on the rights of holders of other names is a separate issue (which is dealt with by e.g. for registered companies by entities like Companies House (in the UK), and legal restrictions/enforcement such as trademarks, passing off etc bounded by trading areas and sectors). That's all irrelevant, but we'd need to know about Iraqi law to say about that properly. You seriously think they care about Iraqi law, and trademarks anyhow? Tell me, what's the process then for applying for a terrorist organisation name?!
  • User:GregKaye I don't understand your NPOV argument. That is what they call themselves. It is their name. A fact. Backed by WP:RS. To want to withhold that is WP:CENSOR. For instance, their multitude of names is reflected in, for example, the BBC which uses variants "IS" "Islamic State" "so-called Islamic State". The point is that's their name (currently). Let's not conflate that with the issue of their recognition as a state, which is another issue. Widefox; talk 19:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
@Widefox: Thanks for the point about it not being a name change, I missed that somehow. Sorry for accidentally misrepresenting what you were doing,
Wikipedia policy does seem to suggest, for it's purposes that an individual cannot unilaterally change their name (see WP:SPNC). The example it gives (Cat_Stevens) has the name they changed to as the leading name, even though the name hasn't changed, so I agree that a title name doesn't have to match the leading name. Banak (talk) 20:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Widefox Let's do what it takes to present a NPOV presentation of the group. I don't understand where you are coming from with your WP:CENSOR argument which makes no sense. The wording "Islamic State" is still in and has always been in the name "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". Its just that the second wording, which provides natural disambiguation, makes geographic reference to the main locations in which they are based. In regard to the title's descriptive qualities it is argued here that "Islamic State" falls utterly flat, way short of the most basic standard of WP:AT. Wikipedia is also not a WP:SOAPBOX for 'SIL's extremist religious claim of being the state for all of Islam. Have you read any of the many news articles relating to the many names that are used for the group? GregKaye 20:05, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Banak It is an organisation name, not a living person. WP:AT WP:BLP do not apply here as we're not discussing the Article Title, or a BLP. It is even OK to even use a self-published source per WP:ABOUTSELF (although we have WP:RS exceeding that)... "the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim". Also OK.
Greg we're not talking about the article title, so disambiguation is irrelevant. This is only about an alternative title (the ones included in bold in the lede). The fact that the characters "Islamic State" are in "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" is irrelevant. They are both proper nouns, names of the organisation (at various times). (Similar org names happen all the time, we don't call KFC "Kentucky Fried Chicken" for the same reason.) They changed their name. (just to spell this out again, I'm not proposing changing the article title). WP doesn't care what you or I think of the group or their name, it is up to us to present their name and not WP:CENSOR it, or present their name with some caveat.
My point is that the name should simply be included as their current name. We should cover how it is a controvercial name per NPOV/WP:BALANCE/WP:WEIGHT. The current wording actually does that, but I want it underlined here with WP:CONSENSUS, that's all. Ref 27 is not a ref, but a collection (see WP:SYN). They need citing individually. Widefox; talk 19:07, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
@Widefox: I am aware it doesn't apply, I was trying to point out that as according to wikipedia policy individuals cannot unilaterally change their name, and there is therefore no reason to believe organisations can without seeing a policy that says they can, and therefore it probably follows from common usage, which believe IS has. I was also using the example from that page to point out, that even if a name change is rejected that the title doesn't have to match the starting name, which to me seemed odd.
@GregKaye: The only way I see this could violate WP:SOAPBOX is if you believed it counts as "Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment", to refer to IS as such. I consider it no such thing. Calling the "Democratic Republic of the Congo" by this name doesn't imply it is democratic and the only democratic republic in the Congo. Similarly calling "Islamic State" such doesn't imply it is Islamic, a State, or the one and only Islamic State. Banak (talk) 19:50, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Banak, of course it works as soapbox as just one of the objections. The group claims authority in governance over all of Islam. They call themselves Islamic State. Why do you thing Arabic nations call them Daesh? GregKaye 00:26, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Banak To clarify, when people and orgs change their name (of course they are free to), that is reflected in the WP article as an alternative title, even if self-sourced (per guidelines above).
  • WP:SPNC is about changing the article title (the name above the article). The article title lags that change due to being based on the most used common name in sources. WP:NCCORP is the naming convention similarly for companies, WP:NCPP for political groups, WP:NCGAL for government and legislation (WP:PLACE for the geographical claim). This is all off topic as this isn't about the name of the article.
    • WP:NCPP does say "and place the original native name or names on the first line of the article" so there's an expectation that the names are in the first line (unless there's many like here). Interestingly, WP:NCGAL says to "Use official names". WP:POVNAME is also worth a read.
  • Anyhow, this isn't about the article title.
  • This is Wikipedia:Article_titles#Treatment_of_alternative_names "If there are at least three alternative names, or there is something notable about the names themselves, a separate name section is recommended (see Lead section)."
    • Importantly "All significant alternative titles, names, or forms of names that apply to a specific article should be made to redirect to that article." So we should have a redirect from Islamic State which we currently don't have (due to an old consensus in discussion of that redirect)
(see also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic_names)#Alternative names has details of 2 or 3 alternative names in bold in the first line (more in a paragraph), and "Local official names are often listed first". )
Greg conflating the issues of name and the claim doesn't help. Widefox; talk 00:54, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Widefox, I agree that conflating of issues should not be encouraged but this is exactly what I regard to have already happened at the time that this theologically questionable group pronounced themselves as "Islamic State". I don't think that it is right to side with the group and against all the Arab nations all around. GregKaye 01:09, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I'd just like to point out here that I have never heard it being called Daesh either on television, newspapers etc. It seem to me that 'Islamic State' or some variant thereof is the English name in its most common usage. Many people and many organisations don't recognise many other entities around the world, but those names are never conflated with their claim. Ljgua124 (talk) 09:14, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Ljgua124 I don't know if you have noticed this. In many news interviews I have seen with a wide range of expert and other interviewees, the reporting team may, as you say, refer to the "Islamic State" or "IS" but the interviewee will often make reference to ISIL or ISIS. From what I have seen this happens on the vast majority of such cases. I have not known, when the interviewer starts by speaking of ISIL, that the interviewee will then talk of "Islamic State" or "IS". GregKaye 14:09, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Agree with Widefox that Islamic State is "what they call themselves. It is their name. A fact. Backed by WP:RS. To want to withhold that is WP:CENSOR. For instance, their multitude of names is reflected in, for example, the BBC which uses variants "IS" "Islamic State" "so-called Islamic State"." The point is the current official name is "Islamic State". XavierItzm (talk) 15:45, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Entity cannot have an official name, as it is not "official" anything. RGloucester — ☎ 16:26, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
  • On the subject of "official"/self-designated names and what us using them means: there is a terrorist group calling itself the Real Irish Republican Army, and there was once another calling itself the Official Irish Republican Army. Despite the only organisation that could legitimately call itself by either of those names being the actual Irish armed forces, we still refer to the terrorist groups by their chosen names. I don't see why the same shouldn't apply here - within the article, at least initially, refer to IS as IS (or whatever they are calling themselves today), regardless of whether or not they are really "Islamic" or really a "state". Calling them by their name doesn't mean we recognise their claims (any more than having an article on Emperor Norton does). Iapetus (talk) 14:31, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Poor examples. Also, nope. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 16:38, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Can you expand on those points? Iapetus (talk) 11:20, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Actually, these are pretty good examples. The standard is to let people call themselves what they will, and it is seen as an infringement on their rights to call them other than that. This is why you have a Wikipedia entry for the Real Irish Republican Army. In the case of the Islamic State, that's their name. That's why media as diverse as The Guardian and the BBC have created sections on the Islamic State, and named them as such: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/, ISLAMIC STATE CONFLICT (BBC). XavierItzm (talk) 14:49, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
RGloucester yes, agree. I use "official" here only as shorthand for "self-designated name" (just like we have {{official}}). Both terms are either side of neutrality/illegitimacy. "the name of the organisation". Widefox; talk 15:16, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
This article is not called "Islamic State" for a variety of reasons, including disambiguation, neutrality, and lack of commonality. Such a renaming has been rejected enough times. That's that. RGloucester — ☎ 17:03, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
RGloucester, More accurately we have reached no consensus on the last three attempts to do so, rather than the proposal being rejected. Banak (talk) 19:51, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
RGloucester, this thread is not a proposal to rename the article, from the original post: "This is only discussing one of the alternative titles, not the article title (i.e. not the name of the article)" Gazkthul (talk) 21:47, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

So Private Manning self-identifies as "Chelsea" and Wikipedia has to use that name, but several thousand people self-identify as the "Islamic State" and the article hasn't been renamed yet? Gee, that's consistent. 208.163.245.159 (talk) 04:07, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

  • 208.163.245.159 If Private Manning had called herself something like "Pope of the Catholic church" then it is possible that Wikipedia might not use such a title without some form of disambiguation. GregKaye 18:19, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
    • The argument (well, this particular argument) isn't about what the article is called. I personally have no objection to keeping the article at "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant", or to using "ISIL" in the body of the article whenever they are referred to. As far as I can tell this particular argument is about whether the lede should begin with some variant of "Islamic State (الدولة الإسلامية), formerly (and still commonly referred to in English sources as) Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and also known as X/Y/Z", or if - as at present - it should begin "The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, also known as X/Y/Z and Islamic State". While I'm not too bothered about it, I would support giving its "real" (self-chosen) name first, simply because that is (currently) its "real" name. (I don't care about allegedly "infringing their rights", just clearly and accurately reporting what they call themselves). Conversely I don't think the accuracy of their name in describing what they really are is relevant, any more than it is for all the different Real/Official/etc IRAs, and I don't think the lede should get bogged down in describing how other people don't like it calling itself that. Another article would could perhaps use as a guide is North Korea, which begins "North Korea, officially the Democratic People's Republic of Korea", which gives the common name immediately followed by the official (but completely untruthful) full name. Applied to IS, that would probably correspond to something like "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), officially [The] Islamic State". Iapetus (talk) 14:47, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
I agree it should read along the lines of "The Islamic State, otherwise known as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant...". Mbcap (talk) 15:50, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Also agree it should read along the lines of "The Islamic State, otherwise known as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant..." XavierItzm (talk) 17:14, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
ISIS has no official name. They are not a recognised state, unlike North Korea. The group doesn't get to decide what they are called. That's not how it works. Sorry. RGloucester — ☎ 17:22, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
Is there a WP:RS to back up the assertion that "The group doesn't get to decide what they are called. That's not how it works."? XavierItzm (talk) 15:05, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
I have just started a thread at: Wikipedia talk:Official names#Can the article make a clear statement on the Wikipedia definition of official name? I currently did not find the content very clear. RGloucester , My interpretation is that "Islamic State" is the groups "official name". However I think that it has been rightly argued that the name is laden heavy with POV which is disputed and that an NPOV approach indicates that this designation should not be adopted by Wikipedia. This is the understanding that I have had of the situation but the lack of clarity at WP:OFFICIAL does not help. GregKaye 20:04, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
"it has been [...] argued that the name is laden heavy with POV". Kindly explain the relevancy of such arguments. Isn't there primacy in the Wikipedia to go by WP:RS? XavierItzm (talk) 00:54, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Martin Luther called the Catholic church "the Whore of Babylon" yet somehow the Wikipedia article on the Catholic church fails to mention this. Why is that? It is because the Wikipedia's policy is to rely on WP:RS, not on propaganda by religious partisans. XavierItzm (talk) 12:14, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Flags...

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

...in the 'opposition' section. Far too plethoric. Reckon I'll get rid of them as per WP:FLAGCRUFT. But feel free to discuss it here before I WP:BRD. Cheers! Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 19:39, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Stealing?

Latest comment: 9 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

The lead currently says; "To finance its activities, the organisation is also stealing ancient artefacts from Syria and Iraq." Stealing from who and how? Similar to the stance that we do not say murdering as it implies illegality or executing as it implies legality I think that perhaps "stealing" should also be looked at. How should this be phrased? GregKaye 14:19, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with "steal". It seems to me, from the 3 sources given, that insurgents have looted at least one occupied museum. Unlike the killing of prisoners, stealing is not called an act of terror, so it doesn't seem to be controversial wording. However, it might be simpler and clearer to say:
The organisation has sold ancient artefacts from occupied sites.
--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 18:28, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Hroðulf I have changed the lead text to, "A trade in ancient artefacts is used to fund group activities." There is plenty of content in the article to allow readers to come to their own conclusions regarding stealing, looting and, perhaps, plundering. I am still not sure what the best presentation on this might be. A comparable article content on Nazi plunder makes rapid reference to "art theft". I am not sure what differences between "transnational war" and "insurgency" might make on this. GregKaye 07:13, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Artifacts have recognised owners, in this case the Iraqi and Syrian governments, therefore from a legal perspective ISIS is seizing properties without owner's consent, i.e. stealing.--Kathovo talk 12:28, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
This issue is apparently solved. Today it reads: "A trade in ancient artefacts is used to fund group activities." Still rather funnily formulated, though. But anyway: why just that one remark about its fundings in the lead? 'Funding' has a separate section (§9.4), and a proper summary of that section in the lead will probably not be this sole sentence about '...artefacts'. --Corriebertus (talk) 16:41, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Corriebertus A major topic of related to ISIL has been its approach to the cultural heritage of controlled territories and, in the eyes of many, value has immeasurably more parameters than money. I edited to the new sentence but if you would prefer to go back to the original then be my guest. GregKaye 15:11, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Takfiri?

Latest comment: 9 years ago14 comments8 people in discussion

I think we should add Takfiri in the infobox under ideology? On Google there are 458,000 results and on google news there are 4,660 results for Takfiri and ISIS. Here is two sources from new york times.[1][2][3][4] Eulalefty (talk) 21:15, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Makes sense. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 00:19, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Takfiri has been removed from the infobox ideology section on multiple occasions. Takfir is not an ideology, it is simply the act of declaring a Muslim to have committed apostasy. Incidentally, anyone who claims that ISIS members are not Muslims are, by definition, committing Takfir themselves. Gazkthul (talk) 02:22, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 
Countries in which, as of 2007, apostasy of the local or state religion was punishable by execution under national (black) or regional (dark gray) law. Currently, this occurs only in Islamic nations.
Gazkthul Reference, perhaps to something like Takfiri practice could be gainfully added to a number of contents. Takfiri practice is common with groups like ISIL who threaten severe punishment for religious infringement.
On second thoughts see results on: takfirism ideology. there are "About 173,000" of them. There is nothing I have seen to support the view of: takfirism "not an ideology" and this seems to me to be original research. I would like to see better citation on Takfirism. GregKaye 09:24, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Takfirism is not an ideology, it is rather an umbrellat term originally used in Shia literature to describe those Sunni extremists who consider Shiites to be apostates رافضة (Rafiḍah). This term is also lately used by moderate Sunni opponents of militants Islamism, Sunni Silamists call the latter مرتدين (Murtaddīn).--Kathovo talk 12:05, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Takfirism is not an ideology. There is no source that stipulate's "Takfirism" to be an ideology. It may be part of an ideology, such is the case with Salafism. Even Madkhali Salafi's learn the concept of "al-Ma’loom min al-Deen bil-Dharoorah" (Matters known in Islam by Necessity) which stipulates things which every Muslim must accept and know, otherwise they declare takfir on such individuals. That is why you had the imam of Mecca mosque declaring takfir on the Shia a few years ago. The same takfir is practised by the Shia on the Salafis. I am sure the takfir of Islamic State is covered in sources and we can add content accordingly to this page but as an ideology, the sources do not substantiate such an assertion. Mbcap (talk) 15:48, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Kathovo, Mbcap, There is a huge content on links as found via searches on:
The contention is that Isil act this way out of habit. I have often seen references citing perceptions of takfirism going into the article and, it seems to me, they have been consistently edited out. As indicated, various sources describe takfirm as an ideology and, from what I have seen, it is a big part of Isil's brand of Salafi Jihadist ideology. GregKaye 12:24, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
If we can have a consensus we cad add Takfiri surely. I too support the inclusion of it. Khestwol (talk) 12:31, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/09/opinion/the-saudis-can-crush-isis.html?_r=0
  2. ^ http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/opinion/the-caliphate-fantasy.html
  3. ^ https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=s20YVeeDK-mM8Qf9rIG4DQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=isis+takfiri
  4. ^ https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=s20YVeeDK-mM8Qf9rIG4DQ&gws_rd=ssl#q=isis+takfiri&tbm=nws
Oppose. The waters are already muddied by a cacophony of "Salafi jihadism Salafism /Wahhabism Sunni Islamism". Next thing you know, someone may wish to add "Mahometanism", on the pretext that Islamic State devotees follow Mahomet. Let's keep it the way it is. XavierItzm (talk) 22:58, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Greg none of the sources establish tafiri to be an ideology. The searches have revealed statements such as "ISIL tafiri", "takfiri ISIL" and so on but no statement which says that is their ideology. It is also interesting that from the news sources, press TV come up often which in my view has no reliability and is simply a vessel through which we get blessed with ululating Iranian propaganda. This is not to say that the group does not do takfir. It does but it is not an ideology, rather it forms a component of their ideology. No one can deny their takfiri nature because by definition they must be takfiri as they have denounced both the khawarij and the murji'a. Their takfir is covered in sources such as this one[3] in The Australian and also the Brooking's report. I would agree with you that they act like this out of habit but I would go one step further and say that they do this with real intent because takfirism is part of their doctrine. Not only that, they would say that the one who does not declare takfir against what they percieve to be apostates, is himself an apostate. Such is the case with the group. I would suggest we cover the takfiri nature of the group in the article or the standalone Ideology article but we should not add it as an ideology. Mbcap (talk) 23:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Greg my apologies, the ping system has not been working for me as of late. Regarding Takfiri, it is my opinion that it is not an ideology thought I appreciate that this groups engages in barndoor takfirism. I came across the article which you have mentioned but my impression is that it is used as a description rather than the qualifier for ideology. Mbcap (talk) 02:26, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
All that matters here is what RS says. I think Wahhabism and Takfirism both needs to be in the ideology section in infobox. Khestwol (talk) 04:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Mbcap Khestwol Ty both, I think the article can go either of two ways. Schlolarly sources say that the group's ideology is ~"based on Salafist Jihadism". News reporters etc. describe the group as takfirist. While I think that references to takfirist practice can go in the article. We should stick with a based on type of reference. GregKaye 12:20, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Islam

Latest comment: 9 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

I will be working to change the introduction of the article. The article should clearly state the fact that ISIS is a Muslim group, not whitewashing reality with the weasel phrase "Islamic extremism." According to ISIS themselves, Islam is what motivates and inspires them. How is it Wikipedia's place to decide whether they are following an "extreme" form of Islam? I suspect some want to cover up the fact that Islam is telling them to do what they're doing. The bottom line is ISIS is a Muslim group and that's FACT. JoeM (talk) 02:43, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

This article is about a world religion, not a select group that claims said religion in an attempt to rationalize their actions. Saying that ISIL is motivated by Islam is just buying into their propaganda (do you agree with terrorist propaganda, JoeM? Do you like spreading terrorist propaganda on the web?), and it's like saying that American Patriotism was what motivated Timothy McVeigh. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:19, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Timothy McVeigh was a single individual, an isolated case that does not represent American patriotism. ISIS is a huge movement that thousands, if not millions, of Muslims have rallied behind. Yes, the terrorists use the same argument, saying their religion justifies their actions. That's a fact. Full disclosure-- in my opinion their religion is pure evil (evil ideas motivating evil action); but I will not work to inject articles with my POV. However, I think facts can speak for themselves among fair-minded readers. JoeM (talk) 03:27, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Judging from your other edits and talk page posts, you've forgotten what WP:NPOV means since you last edited, almost ten years ago. --NeilN talk to me 03:46, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

JoeM I know that we have talked a lot and I am glad to have been involved. On this issue please see, Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant/Archive 31#Propose dropping "rebel" from lead. The whole topic came up when I was first looking at changing a description heavy introduction by droping the term rebel. When looking at actual usage of description of the group in reputable sources it was found that extremist was by quite a margin the most commonly used term. GregKaye 19:28, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Schools of Islamic Law

Latest comment: 9 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Does anyone know what school of Sunni law ISIS tends to use? Hanbali? Hanafi? Another one? (31 March 2015). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.69.219.230 (talk) 14:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

  • I believe wahhabism/salafism falls under the Hanbali school. Sapiocrat (talk) 14:30, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Scratch that: "Salafis can come from the Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali or the Hanafi schools of Sunni fiqh[25] and accept teaching of all four if supported by clear and authenticated evidence from the Sunnah." (Salafi movement) Sapiocrat (talk) 14:31, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

One of the identifiers of salafis is that they reject strict adherence (taqlid or blind following) to a madhab (legal school) if favour of independent interpretation of quran and sunnah. But if they take the opinion it is usually closest to Hanbali — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.94.46 (talk) 19:26, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

"allegations of support"

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The allegations of Turkish, Saudi Arabian, Syrian and United states support are spurious, unfounded conspiracy theories and for the few lines of unsubstantiated garbage about them is not worthy to have in this article Wikipedia is for facts not a place to air propagandistic conspiracies

I propose another article/page where all these can be contained under 'conspiracy theories about the islamic state' This would also help shorten this article which is quite long, too long — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.94.46 (talk) 20:14, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Giving those ideas their own article would, at this moment, actually create more prominence for then than they deserve. You appear to have not actually read the section, since it only reports claims as claims, not as facts. Furthermore, the material is sourced. If you want to have a problem with anything, have a problem with the people who originally made those claims -- we're just pointing out that they made those claims. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:22, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

How can they possibly have more prominence than they do since they are already on the primary islamic state wiki article Reporting claims is the job of news organisations, not wikipedia Wiki is an encyclopaedia for facts, no? It is a fact that those claims have been made, but that fact is not relevant enough to justify being on the main article

foreign fighters

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Information about these is replicated at length, including an unnessecary list of countries and numbers It is enough to simply state that many have joined with estimate of overall number It is Replicated in both 'supporters' and "military sections' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.94.46 (talk) 21:32, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Two new articles

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Just a heads up, I came across two new Islamic State related articles. One is Caliphate of ISIL and the second is Administrative divisions of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. What should we do with these? The first one is up for deletion. Mbcap (talk) 00:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Speedily delete both. It's rediculous. They're basically articles started by users who cannot accept the current consensus (and government use) of ISIL for this terrorist organization. Any content those articles have are basically redundant, or stated elsewhere in one of the already-existing ISIL articles. I highly doubt that any of those articles could possibly ever contribute anything positive to this encyclopedia and as such, they should be deleted. LightandDark2000 (talk) 07:55, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Libya and Nigeria have groups allied with ISIL

Latest comment: 9 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

I clarified a misleading claim that was added recently, without any consensus or discussion. Libya and Nigeria surely have extremist groups allied with ISIL and that is sourced in the article. But all the sources cited say that the groups operating in Libya and Nigeria have merely pledged allegiance with ISIL, but are not part of ISIL's official government. Khestwol (talk) 02:28, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree on Nigeria, so Boko_Haram and Boko_Haram_insurgency need fixing. If you are right about Libya, then Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant_in_Libya needs to be looked at. Banak (talk) 04:57, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
The ISIL in Libya article was created by Gazkthul and expanded mostly by them. So I am not sure if it presents the political situation in Libya neutrally. It seems wrong and WP:BIASED. About Nigeria of course we can be sure that ISIL has no government formally ruling over them. Adding it to lede as a part of the territory controlled by ISIL and putting its country flag into infobox was unsupported. Khestwol (talk) 05:28, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
If you believe the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant in Libya article is wrong and WP:BIASED, please put your specific objections on the articles Talk page so that I can address them.
Regarding whether or not they are part of ISIL's government, I have found the following:
[4] "In September ISIS leader Baghdadi helped orchestrate the takeover of Derna by dispatching one of his senior aides, Abu Nabil al Anbari, an Iraqi ISIS veteran who had spent time with Baghdadi, in a U.S. detention facility in Iraq, according to Benotman. Helped by Abu al-Baraa el-Azdi, a Saudi preacher who has become Derna's top religious judge, al Anbari's efforts have borne fruit"
[5] "In September, an Islamic State delegation, including the Yemeni Abu al-Bara al-Azdi and the Saudi Abu Habib al-Jazrawi, arrived in Libya. After being received by the IYSC, they collected pledges of allegiance to the Islamic State’s self-appointed caliph, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, from IYSC-aligned fighters in Derna. They then declared eastern Libya to be a province of the Islamic State, calling it Wilayat Barqa, or the Cyrenaica Province."
[6] "A new Islamic State "emir" now leads the city, identified as Mohammed Abdullah, a little-known Yemeni militant sent from Syria known by his nom de guerre Abu al-Baraa el-Azdi" Gazkthul (talk) 06:04, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
@Banak and Gazkthul: ok so for the time being we can remove Nigeria but leave Libya. Khestwol (talk) 12:43, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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