Talk:Hema people

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I do not think there is any any such thing as the Hima dialect. The Banyankole including the Bahima speak the same language.

Hema origin

Hema keep being referred to as Nilotic when they dont speak a nilotic language but a Bantu one closely related to the Bantu languages of western Uganda. Everytime i correct this its changed. Wojak6 (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi Wojak6, thanks for engaging on talk. I've reverted your edits because they are unsourced and appear contrary to the consensus in the literature. Emma Wild-Wood writes in Migration and Christian Identity in Congo (DRC) (2018): "The Hema are Nilotic pastoralists who originally migrated from the Nile basin to Bunyoru. They speak a Bantu language, Hema or Runyoro." Christian P. Scherrer writes in Genocide and Crisis in Central Africa (2002), p 338: "The Lendu are of Bantu origin while Hema, Alur, Ndo Okebo and Mambisa are Nilotic communities. [...] Nilotic groups like the Hema have been associated witht he occupying armies of Rwanda and Uganda. [...] Mistakenly, the myth of a Hima-Tutsi empire is also seen in racial terms as a "Hamitic" or "Nilotic threat"." Hope this helps. —Brigade Piron (talk) 10:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

That source is using the hamitic hypothesis. Which is discredited. Hema are Bantu. They belong to the "Rutaran" branch of great lakes bantu in which runyoro, runyankole, rutooro etc belong. Wojak6 (talk) 06:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Anyone can simply click on the languages of groups like the lendu and see they speak a central sudanic and not a bantu one... that author is clearly not a linguist and that source is not a valid one Wojak6 (talk) 06:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

The rutaran speaking bantu peoples of the great lakes developed pastorialism independantly of any nilotic peoples btw. Similar to the pastoralists of south africa like the Bantu Wojak6 (talk) 06:09, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Ndo language..which clearly says Central-Sudanic and not Nilotic. Its related to mangbettu. Your source is clearly outdated and unreliable. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ndo_language Wojak6 (talk) 06:22, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Wojak6, you have misread the sources. They do not endorse the Hamitic theory but merely explain why it is sometimes applied in the context of the Hema-Lendu conflict. Both are reliable and recently-published scholarly books and are certainly not "outdated and unreliable". There is no reason why, as the first source demonstrates, a "Nilotic" people cannot speak a "Bantu" language. Can you provide any reliable sources to support your contention that they are not of "Nilotic origin"? —Brigade Piron (talk) 10:41, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

If the hema are nilotic then all the ethnic groups in the related box should be removed immediately Wojak6 (talk) 08:47, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Also i cant find any other source saying the lendu and ndo are Bantu or hema being of nilotic (which nilotic branch? Luo? Ateker?) Origin. Very vague. Their language is unique and they clearly didnt adopt it from elsewhere. Wojak6 (talk) 08:49, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Here is my source that debunks your unreliable one that msitakenly labels hema as nilotes due to the hamitiic hypothesis https://www.jstor.org/stable/20065242?seq=1 Wojak6 (talk) 09:02, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Quote from the book "Hema are labeled as nilotes and lendu as "Bantu" even though they are more properly considered part of the Sudanic language group (that hema are styled as nilotes probably has to do with the phonetic coincidence of hema with "hima" (debunked hamite theory) Wojak6 (talk) 09:10, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I would urge you to read WP:OR which seems to cover your edits to the article so far. We follow reputable sources not your own opinions and research and I'd note that your source does in fact say that "Hema are commonly labeled as "Nilotes"" (p108). I agree that this aspect should be discussed within the article but it does not reflect the general consensus to simply deem it "discredited". In any case, ethnic markers of this kind often do not reflect "genuine" historical or linguistic categorisation as the conflation of Hema and Tutsi amply demonstrates. Above all, please do not simply attempt to re-write the article without citing WP:RS which support your contentions. —Brigade Piron (talk) 10:06, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - Brigade Piron invited me to have a look at this discussion as an independent pair of eyes. I'm not familiar with the history of the Hema people, but I assume this debate mirrors that of the Tutsi in Rwanda and the Hima subgroup of the Ankole people. Of course nobody knows for certain where, how, or even if, these pastoralist groups migrated to the area. That part of African history was not recorded in any way at the time. But as far as I'm aware, the scholarly consensus remains that a Nilotic origin is the most likely. Britannica defines the Tutsi as an ethnic group of "probable Nilotic origin". Brigade Piron has linked scholarly articles above which define the Hema as Nilotic too. It's correct that the "Hamitic" theory has been debunked, but that refers to a racist notion invented by Europeans that certain groups were racially closer to themselves. The fact that this theory is now regarded as outdated does not mean that all theories about the origins of those groups are automatically void. Language isn't really an indicator of their origin either - when two ethnic groups mix they often end up assimilating their languages with each other. Hence why the English monarchs speak English not French, despite being descended from William the Conqueror. And conversely the Celtic peoples of Wales, Scotland and Ireland now speak English, a Germanic language introduced by invaders, rather than their own original tongues. Anyway, the bottom line is that, as with anything, we follow the sources. And Brigade Piron was correct to revert - we shouldn't use original research to define a group as "Bantu" when scholarly sources are apparently saying they're Nilotic. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 11:06, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

The editor, or whomever is in charge of this page is wrong. Hema are bantú, that's a fact. You can't claim that they're nilotes, while being related to Bantu groups! That does not making any sense, it's contradictory.It seems like you have adopted to the more fringe theory of hema origin. Khal Drogo243 (talk) 13:58, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

No-one is in "charge" of this page which is intended to build a consensus. As discussed above, there are a number of reliable sources which state that the Hema are Nilotic. If you disagree, you will need to show other reliable sources which support your viewpoint. The key thing is that there is Wikipedia:Verifiability. —Brigade Piron (talk) 21:47, 6 May 2022 (UTC)