Talk:Gwahoddiad

Massed male-voice choir performance

There are problems with the link and citation of the massed male-voice choir performance. See Talk:Owain Arwel Hughes#Massed male-voice choir performance: Gwahoddiad. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:52, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I am reterting the edit based on WP:ELNEVER. See Talk:Owain Arwel Hughes#Massed male-voice choir performance: Gwahoddiad. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:51, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Date of Hartsough writing

This source (apparently a blog) claims it was written in 1872: [1], as does this one [2]. There are some possible original sources here A library with an original manuscript would be nice! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:29, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

The 1872 date can be defended because that is apparently the date on which the work was first published. So I have consolidated both this article and the article on Lewis Hartsough to that year (1872). Rammer (talk) 03:24, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

By interlibrary loan I have examined the Revivalist for 1872 and edited the related information in the article. "I Am Coming, Lord" does not appear in earlier editions, and all editions were edited by Hartsough. Rammer (talk) 19:24, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

English words

There appear to be two sets of English words, one set titled Invitation and starting I hear thy gentle voice and the other titled I Am Coming, Lord and starting I hear Thy welcome voice. It is unclear whether these are alternative versions, or if they would be sung one after the other. Verbcatcher (talk) 04:27, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Rammer for clarifying that we have two alternative sets of English words, and for the citation. I am concerned that the 1997 version may be in copyright – if you have this hymn book then please check it for copyright declarations relating to these words. However, two sets of English words are too many for an article about a Welsh hymn; I propose that we remove one set. Ideally we should give the English words that Ieuan Gwyllt translated. There is scope for a new article on the English-language hymn, if it is notable. Verbcatcher (talk) 12:20, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Quite agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:41, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I have replaced both sets of English words with the earliest version I found, from 1873. This is close to the 1997 version but with an extra verse and different punctuation and capitalisation. This version has the attribution Music by Rev L. HARTSOUGH, by per. of Philip Phillips. Who was this Philip Phillips? Did Hartsough base the tune on something he wrote, or did Phillips acquire the copyright from Hartsough? Verbcatcher (talk) 13:30, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

That's a very intriguing question. Surely copyright has now long since expired, in any case? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:49, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, my source was published in 1873, so it should be out of copyright. Verbcatcher (talk) 13:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Did someone craftily change the words slightly (between 1873 and 1997) to establish a new copyright? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:56, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Possibly, but I prefer to think that they updated them to to suit modern users. Verbcatcher (talk) 14:15, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

You may well be right. I've always wondered why all hymns are not copyright free. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:26, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

There is an exemption from copyright for religious services, but that doesn't apply to Wikipedia (except maybe in the Church of Wikipedia). Verbcatcher (talk) 15:30, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. "Jimbo loves me this I know, For the Wiki tells me so..." Sing along now, y'all. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:35, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

This gospel song, both words and tune, are in the public domain. The hymnal I cited, Praise for the Lord, is careful to observe copyright information and makes no mention of a copyright on "I Am Coming, Lord." But I can investigate further if anyone wants me to do so.

The "English words" which appeared after the Welsh words in an earlier version of the article are a literal translation of the meaning of the Welsh lyrics. Some latitude has to be available to a translator in going from the original language to the target language, and thus the retranslation back to the original language by yet another translator may render a product noticeably different from the way the poem was in the "original" original.

Because the English version was indeed chronologically earlier, perhaps it should be displayed before the translation to Welsh. I'm not for that rearrangement, because the song nowadays has more common popularity in Welsh churches than in English-speaking ones, but maybe the sequencing concept ought to be thought about. The article is titled with the Welsh word, and I want it to stay that way. If anything, because GWAHODDIAD forms a unique identifier, I suspect that English-language hymnals would do well to use GWAHODDIAD as the tune name.

Slight differences between the 1872 English version and the 1997 English version are perhaps the later preferences of the author or, more likely, the preferences of editors along the way. Often such changes, IMHO, are not improvements. In this case, maybe "assurance" is an improvement over "the witness"—the witness of what? Theology is possibly involved, but "assurance" begs less of an unanswered question.

Rammer (talk) 19:44, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

The Welsh words are really very different - and we have five English verses compared with the Welsh four here. Even in the first line "dyner" = gentle, soft. I might even be in favour of a direct translation of the Welsh somehow, just to show how it differs. By the way, in the 4th verse "cryfhau" = strengthen. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:58, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, Hartsough's original original first line used "gentle" instead of welcome. Rammer (talk) 20:18, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

To an earlier question, by Verbcatcher, I meant to indicate that information on Philip Phillips (1834-1895) appears at http://www.hymntime.com/tch/bio/p/h/i/phillips_p.htm . See also others, with similar names, at the Philip Phillips disambiguation page. Rammer (talk) 20:18, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Ooh, "The Singing Pilgrim" - I'm sure he deserves an article! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:25, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Even (or especially) the chorus: "Arglwydd, dyma fi" = "Lord, here am I"; "Ar dy alwad di" = "At they call"; " Golch fi'n burlan yn y gwaed" = "Wash me immaculate in the blood"; "A gaed ar Galfari" = "Which flowed on Calvary". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:33, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Nameless listeners who speak no Welsh have observed that the one word which comes through to them is "Galfari" (Calvary). One cannot ignore it. Pardon my Christian rumination. Rammer (talk) 23:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

the witness of what? – I'm no theologian, but I interpret "And he the witness gives" as "And Jesus gives witness that". Verbcatcher (talk) 23:18, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

"Gentle" or "welcome" – Rammer, can you find an early version with "gentle"? I have quoted the version from Winnowed hymns (1873). The first published version may be in an edition of The Revivalist. The 1869 edition I found online does not not include it. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:37, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

It is clear that the Welsh and English words currently in the article have different meanings. Should we give a re-translation of the Welsh words, or Hartsough's original, or both? I think both is too much. In any event, we should make the status of the words clear. Were the first set of English words that I removed a few hours ago a good translation of the Welsh? Verbcatcher (talk) 23:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

A rough literal translation:

I hear thy gentle voice

Calling unto me

To come and wash all my sins

In the river of Calvary

Lord here I am

At thy call

Wash me immaculate in the blood

That flowed at Calvary

Jesus who invites me

To receive his saints

Faith, hope, pure love and peace

And every heavenly privilege

Jesus strengthens,

Me in his work by grace;

It gives strength to my weak soul

To beat my hateful sin.

Everlasting glory for commanding

The atonement and purification;

I accept Jesus for me,

And sing about the blood.

But a second opinion by a fluent Welsh speaker would be wise. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:32, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Your new translation is close to the first set of English words that we had before the recent edits:

"Invitation"

I hear thy gentle voice
Calling to me
To come and wash all my sins
In the river of Calvary.

Chorus
      Lord, here I am
      At thy call,
      Bleach my soul in the blood
      Which flowed on Calvary.

It is Jesus who invites me
To receive with his saints
Faith, hope, pure love and peace
And every heavenly privilege.

It is Jesus who strengthens
Me in his work through grace;
He gives strength to my weak soul
To beat my hateful sins.

Glory ever for ordering
The reconciliation and the expurgation;
I will receive Jesus as I am
And sing about the blood.

My Welsh isn't adequate to comment on the accuracy of these alternative translations. It is good to match the metre and rhyme scheme of the Welsh, providing that the meaning of the words is maintained. However, the issue now is what we want the English words to represent. We could have:

1. Hartsough's original words
2. A version currently used in English-language churches (unless copyright issues preclude this)
3. A re-translation of the Welsh words
4. Any combination of the above
5. or no English words

There are arguments in favour of each. My problem with what we had before was that it was unclear which of these we had. Verbcatcher (talk) 11:51, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

No strong view. Could drop-down text boxes be employed in some way? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:50, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Verbcatcher: I can try to get the edition of Revivalist which supposèdly contained the original publication, if you want me to. It will probably take some time, however. I detect that the 1872 edition is confused with the 1868 one because neither contains a year of publication on the title page or its overleaf. And I'm suspicious that the 1873 edition may be the one where the song first appeared. Rammer (talk) 05:50, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I suggested looking in The Revivalist for the original publication because you questioned whether the opening line contained "gentle" or "welcome". It would also give evidence of the first publication date. However, it's only important to determine the accurate original words if we are going to quote them. The 1869 edition does contain a year of publication and is a "revised and enlarged edition", indicating that there was an earlier edition. It may be possible to distinguish between the 1868 and 1873 editions by comparing them with the 1869 edition. What is your opinion on which set of English words we should give? Verbcatcher (talk) 12:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Verbcatcher: The edition for which you provide the URL above indicates that it was "Entered according to act of Congress, in the year 1869, by Joseph Hillman ...." Does that statement mean that the book was published in 1869? Apparently the cataloguing librarian at Adrian College thought so, in assigning the call BV/460/.H65/1869. The testimonials at the start of the book bear dates in January 1868. I suspect that what we see there is an 1869 revised and enlarged somehow from an 1868 edition. Anyway, the song we're looking for would not be in there. We need a later edition, as Hartsough is said to have first published the song later. Amazon.com has a purportedly "1873" edition on sale for $95. I've sent an inquiry to Amazon, and I also intend to inquire via interlibrary loan at Southeastern Louisiana University and a friend elsewhere who knows how to find the most out-of-the-way relics via the American Theological Library Association.

Concerning the first line the Wikipedia article should display, I definitely would use "I hear thy welcome voice" because that is the first line known in English even if "I hear thy gentle voice" turns out to be the original first line. A footnote can serve to clarify that "gentle" was the word in the original publication, if such be the case. A famous Christmas carol entered English with first line "Silent night, hallowèd night" and was sung that way for decades before "hallowèd" was commonly replaced by holy. The version with "holy" in the first line is what Wikipedia fronts in the "Silent Night" article.

Rammer (talk) 21:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Rammer: I assigned the 1869 date to the linked edition of The Revivalist using the same evidence as you. The earlier Wikipedia article gave the hymn's composition date as 1868 so it could be in there, but I can't find it. The comparison with Silent Night isn't direct because this article is about a Welsh hymn; is the tune ever called Gwahoddiad in English hymnals? However, I am coming around to the view that we should give the modern English words, with footnotes giving the changes since the original version. We might include the original final verse with a note that it is now usually omitted. Are you in a position to do this? Do you have a mainstream modern hymn book that supports the view that the words are out of copyright, and which could be cited as a source? To save retyping you could start with text copied from the version from 13:41, 23 June 2014. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:32, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Verbcatcher, I can revise the article as you suggest. The process may take a few days as I have a lot on my plate right now. I'll also try to get the 1873 edition of Revivalist and see what's in there. I have a number of modern hymnals. I know of no American hymnal which calls the tune GWAHODDIAD, but I believe that's a good title for the article. There are redirects which point to it. It would not surprise me if Hartsough wrote more stanzas than are in the Welsh translation, or that perhaps the Welsh translation fuses together elements of a couple of stanzas from the English original. I doubt that Gwyllt/Roberts inserted a Welsh stanza not arising from the English original. Rammer (talk) 05:22, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

All right, folks. After examining eyes-on the 1872 edition of Revivalist and accordingly editing the article, I hope the current state of the article with respect to the questions in this talk section are now resolved. For example, "welcome" is the word in the first line as originally published in English by Hartsough. As a mere speculation, perhaps "gentle" was in there in manuscript form until Hartsough (possibly at the recommendation of Hillman) changed to "welcome," but, as I've indicated, "welcome" is the word in the first published version, 1872. Rammer (talk) 19:41, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Organization of Article, particularly translations

When looking at the translations, the thought occurs to me that they are being considered in the wrong order. Even if this is ultimately about the Welsh translation, the English is the original, and thus should be considered first. This provides the historical context for the Welsh, especially since the differences from the English are being discussed without having actually presented the English yet in the article. That said, thinking about similar articles involving translations, shouldn't the translations be presented in parallel, with the English original, a Welsh literal translation, and then the actual Welsh version? Carl ^{(talk|contribs)} 17:59, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds sensible. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:01, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Shifting the display to parallel would possibly be an improvement. But I still go with presenting the Welsh first—meaning in the left column of a parallel display. The whole development of this article rose from the Welsh translation, and it is in Wales that the song continues to experience its foremost popularity. In addition the title "Gwahoddiad" gives the article uniqueness with no need whatever for disambiguation. Redirects in both Welsh and English currently steer titles and first lines to this site. Rammer (talk) 19:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Musical score

I have just started working with the extension to add musical notation to a Wikipedia article, which includes a play button. (See Help:Score and here.) I have prepared the following which I am thinking of adding to the article, possibly replacing the existing image of the hymnbook page. Being able to listen to the tune is very useful, particularly to those who think that they know which hymn this is.

This is based on the 1872 hymnbook image in the current article, with the Welsh word-fitting checked against here. I could probably work out how to add four-part harmony, but I think it's better with just the melody line. Please check this, if possible both by reading the music and by listening to the tune. @Rammer: I would welcome your thoughts on this. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

That's fine, Verbcatcher, but please do not remove the current display of the hymnal display as it originally appeared in 1872. That's a historical artefact. For the audible tune my preference would be acappella SATB, but I accept the merit of providing for readers who cannot read music to hear the tune. As you are no doubt aware, numerous recordings of this gospel song are on the web, many of them on YouTube. I observe that your keyboard version ignores the fermata, but you have the license to make it optional. I probably prefer to do without it except on final singing of the refrain. Rammer (talk) 22:07, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Or even something glorious in Welsh Martinevans123 (talk) 22:39, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

It's not my keyboard version per se – the audio is generated from the score, and it seems that the audio engine ignores firmatas. One of the things I like about the Score extension is that all the data is in the source text, and this can be cooperatively edited and tracked in the normal way. There is no need to upload special files. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:11, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

The Treorchy Male Choir version linked by Martinevans123 highlights two notes that I was unsure of. In bar 12, Hartsough's 1872 hymnal has this:

But the Treorchy Choir seem to be singing this:

The second version sounds more natural to me. Rammer, which version appears in modern hymnals? Is this a mistake in Hartsough's original? Verbcatcher (talk) 00:33, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

All the several hymnals I have use the first version. I prefer it, finding it more emotive, but maybe I'm influenced by what I've seen and heard. Hartsough's harmony has the tenor rising to a B♭ at that point; so the chord has all the intervals if the soprano correspondingly falls to G. If the soprano, in the second version, takes the B♭, then the tenor needs to go to G, which to me sounds more boring. I would stick with Hartsough there, partly to obviate a complication in the article. Directors and singing groups inevitably do some adlibbing, and perhaps that's what happened with Treorchy. Rammer (talk) 03:20, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I have noticed that too. I've always sung asTreorchy does. And I've never heard it any other way. Sorry to say that I can't think of a much better way of ripping the soul out of this hymn tune than by getting an "audio engine" to play it. But then I'm wholly partial, as you must see, to a bit of hwyl. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:33, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Done. I put the Welsh words first because of the title of the article and because we also include the original printed version with the English words. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:36, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Punctuation of Welsh version

In the Welsh lyrics of the first verse, the full stop (period) at the end of I ddod a golchi 'meiau gyd. looks wrong. In my score (above) I changed it to a comma. Can we find a reliable source or can a Welsh linguist give guidance? Neither of my old Welsh language hymn books have this hymn (probably the wrong denomination). Similarly, should there be any punctuation after Golch fi'n burlan yn y gwaed in the chorus? Verbcatcher (talk) 11:13, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I see no reason why the punctuation should not match the English version. I'm not aware of "Welsh punctuation" as such. But I agree a source would be best. I'm sure we could find printed versions that have no punctuation apart from full stops at the end of each verse/chorus. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:20, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

In the "rough translation" of the Welsh version given above the first verse is I hear thy gentle voice / Calling to me / To come and wash all my sins / In the river of Calvary. If this is accurate then there would not be a full stop after the third line, there would either be a comma or nothing. Verbcatcher (talk) 12:22, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Fully agree. That full stop in definitely wrong. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:27, 2 July 2015 (UTC)