Talk:German occupation of Albania

Untitled

I was under the impression that the Germans retreated from Albania! Enlil Ninlil (talk) 21:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, a more careful examination of the article, and, especially, the historical facts would lead you to the following:

- German takeover July 25, 1943

- German defeat November 28, 1944

Yes, Albanian partisans did fight against the Nazi elements, though the former retreated because of the gradual and final collapse of the Third Reich. --_Arbër ^{T •  ?} 16:37, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Context and Literature

The present article does neither make any reference to the previous italian influence in the kingdom nor does it explain, whether the formal existence of a kingdom had any importance under german occupation and why there was no king anymore. The source I introduced is detailed, complete, trustworthy about such and other aspects. It is scientifically on contemporary level, partly web-accessible, and has enough content for a very good and precise article. Just it needs good knowledge of german.--Fluss (talk) 18:29, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

The sources used to say it was titled "Independent State of Albania" don't say so

Normally I try to be civil, but this really cracks my nerves. I really get tired and fed up with Wikipedia when I see people make up bullshit out of sources that don't support their claims at all. I looked through the Google Books at this German-language book and searched the title name of the state in both German and Albanian, nowhere in the book does it title the country as the "Independent State of Albania". And nowhere on Google Books is there evidence of a state with the title "Independent State of Albania" Someone made that up out of their imagination as an allusion to the Independent State of Croatia. Thus the title of this article and the names shown in the infobox and intro are bullshit, so what was the real title of this state during German control?--R-41 (talk) 02:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

interesting point. I note that Owen Pearson uses "independent State of Albania" a couple of times in Albania in the Twentieth Century, A History: Volume II: Albania in Occupation and War, 1939-45 [1], but that is not "Independent State of Albania" is it? Fischer doesn't use anything like it. I would have thought that due to the lack of a WP:COMMONNAME we'd be best going with something descriptive like German occupation of Albania in WWII. Fischer does make it clear that it was a fictional independence [2]. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 05:05, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

The "independent" is not capitalized as a title, so it is saying that it was called the "State of Albania". More references are needed to verify that title. Sources I have read say that the country adopted a regency - a head of state officially running the country on the basis of monarchy in the absence of a monarch being present to run the country.--R-41 (talk) 16:41, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree regarding the "independent" part, and that there was a figleaf "regency" of sorts. However, I want to clarify something about the title you have moved it to. Is it your contention that "Kingdom of Albania" is the WP:COMMONNAME in reliable sources for this entity at this time? If so, what sources are you relying on? If not, WP:TITLE expects us to either agree on one of the names commonly used in sources or to come up with an agreed descriptive title. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 22:30, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

References

Not a de jure state

According to the definitions of de jure states: "Most sovereign states are states de jure and de facto (i.e. they exist both in law and in reality). However, a state may be recognised only as a de jure state, in that it is recognised as being the legitimate government of a territory over which it has no actual control. For example, during the Second World War, governments-in-exile of a number of continental European states continued to enjoy diplomatic relations with the Allies, notwithstanding that their countries were under Nazi occupation."

Since the government of Albania led by King Zog resided in exile and enjoyed diplomatic relations , then it was the de jure government of Albania.

In that context, this puppet government was not the de jure government of Albania.

LupinoJacky (talk) 00:19, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Could you give some reliable evidence that there was a government-in-exile led by King Zog? As long as you not provide that evidence, we have to assume that Albania "existed as a de jure independent country". The Banner talk 00:48, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Zog was never (to my knowledge) acknowledged as the head of an Albanian government-in-exile. The Allies did not want to do that because it could affect their relationship with the Greeks. That info is drawn from Pearson. Lemkin does not mention a government-in-exile either. The Allies merely stated that they would ensure the restoration of Albania's independence after it was liberated. When the Basic Statute of the Kingdom of Albania was issued by King Victor Emmanuuel III, while the flag was to be red with the black double-headed eagle, this "state" (in reality a protectorate imposed due to ongoing belligerent occupation) existed, in the same way as other protectorates of the Axis did. In this case, its foreign policy was controlled by Italy, so it couldn't declare war or invade anyone. Albanian troops were "fused" with the Italian Armed Forces on 13 July 1939, and had no separate existence after that point. So "Albania" could not have invaded Yugoslavia, its forces were part of the Italian forces well before 6 April 1941. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 08:28, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

References

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Suggested move

This article title is a misnomer. There was no separate or even autonomous Albanian Kingdom between 1943 and 1944, as from the time of the Italian capitulation, Albania was under German military occupation. I suggest this article be moved to a descriptive one, German occupation of Albania, which reflects that Nazi Germany was in belligerent occupation of Albania. Thoughts? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:46, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67:, not sure if this is a official pagemove, but i would support a pagemove to the name that you proposed which better reflects the makeup of the article. Best.Resnjari (talk) 22:18, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Just floating the idea at this stage, not an official RM. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:38, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

ok, cool. Sounds good.Resnjari (talk) 04:03, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Support -- Calthinus (talk) 04:53, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

If there is no objection, I'm going to move this in the next few days. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:52, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good. Best.Resnjari (talk) 07:57, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: I think its the right time to make the article move. The content that was deleted from the Persecution of Serbs article, it should be moved here or to Albanian Kingdom (1939-1943)? Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:09, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - This source Fischer, Bernd Jürgen (1999). Albania at War, 1939-1945. C. Hurst & Co. Publishers. ISBN 978-1-85065-531-2. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) carefully explains that Germany did not establish conventional military occupation in (Greater) Albania during WWII. Rather than to appoint military governor to govern Albania, Germany appointed Theodor Geib on position of "German General in Albania" (DGA) with official function "to represent the interests of the Wehrmacht to the Albanian government". All relations of Germany with Albanian regime were conducted trough German ambassador Schliep. Yes the independence of the (Greater) Albanian puppet regime was fictional, similar to Reichskommissariat Norwegen.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:01, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Flag and coat of arms

The images of the flag and coat of arms in this article are fictional for two reasons: 1)They lack a source; 2)They are both composites of other fictional images. As such, they should not be included in the article. Kj1595 (talk) 08:10, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2023

There are typo mistakes. 78.162.203.54 (talk) 13:49, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Could you please specify what the mistakes are and where they are located in the article? Tollens (talk) 15:14, 12 June 2023 (UTC)