Talk:Geresh

Additional to what

I fail to see the relevance (or the meaning) of the sentence written here: "There are 6 additional letters in the Arabic alphabet.". Which other letters in the Arabic alphabet are they additional to? Dan Pelleg (talk) 16:13, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The letters ṯāʼ, ḫāʼ, ḏāl, ḍād, ẓāʼ, and ġayn were created by the addition of a dot to the existing letters tā', ḥā', dāl, ṣād, ṭā' and 'ayn. Compare ث خ ذ ض ظ غ versus ت ح د ص ط ع. This is reflected in the Hebrew transliteration with the use of geresh.AlexanderKaras (talk) 03:08, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Could you state a source? The principle makes sense, but according to this (official standard), it applies only for ت-ث ح-خ د-ذ, not the rest, e.g.: ע׳ is obsolete and has been replaced with ר׳ (with ע׳ remaining only in older sources), and צ׳ is in complete mainstream use for [ʧ], so that ד and (for precise transliteration) ד with an overdot are used for ض, not צ׳. Dan ☺ 14:32, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Niqqud confusion

The Niqqud for גֶּרֶשׁ does not agree with what is written on the Cantillation page. Does anyone know which is right?

-- TimNelson (talk) 11:32, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, nothing is right - we can only cite external sources.

גֵּרֵשׁ with two Tzeres implies that the stress is on the last syllable, while גֵּרֶשׁ with Segol is Segolate and implies stress on the second-to-last syllable. Both forms appear in the Even-Shoshan dictionary. The modern pronunciation is always with the stress on the second-to-last syllable, so גֵּרֶשׁ describes the modern pronunciation better.

Another possible niqqud is גֶּרֶשׁ with two Segols. Its pronunciation is essentially identical to גֵּרֶשׁ. It appears in Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, but not in Even-Shoshan. This is quite strange, because there are very few words which are vocalized with Tzere and Segol and all of them are supposed to be listed in the book Academy Decisions: Grammar. גֵּרֶשׁ doesn't appear in that list, so it seems that Even-Shoshan and the Academy contradict each other.

As i wrote on Talk:Gershayim, i'll try to ask the Academy about this. It usually answers quite quickly, but this time it may be slow because of Independence day :) --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:35, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Final Nun with Geresh.

This article does not reference the use of final nun with a geresh (ן') in medieval rabbinic writings to represent the word ben or iben, meaning son of. as seen in this article here: Nun (letter)#Significance.

This detail is also messing in the Hebrew alphabet article. --46.117.64.74 (talk) 12:42, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

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geresh muqdam not always on 1st letter of stressed syllable

As it is currently written, the article seems to suggest that geresh muqdam always appears above “the accented letter.” This is not always true. It is a prepositive accent and thus always appears above the first letter of the word in question, which may or not be “the accented letter.”

Unfortunately I don’t have a good source for this.

In this sense, geresh muqdam behaves like 2 of the 3 other prepositives, telisha gedolah and dehi. (Ignoring the phenomenon of the telisha gedolah “stress helper.”) The other prepositive, yetiv, is only used on words whose first syllable is stressed and therefore being on (in this case below) the first letter of the word is the same thing as being on the first letter of the stressed syllable.

Also, I have put the phrase “the accented letter” in quotes because the notion of “the accented letter” is a bit vague. At the cost of more words, a more precise phrase to use might be “the first letter of the accented syllable.” Or, since teʿamim marks are often referred to as accents, perhaps “the first letter of the stressed syllable” would be better, so as not to be circular. (E.g. the accent of course appears on the accented syllable, according to a strictly visual notion of “accent”!)

Also, it may be worth noting that geresh muqdam is an accent specific to (i.e. restricted to) the 3 books of sifrei emet: Job, Proverbs, and Psalms.