Talk:Farmington Canal Heritage Trail

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we have resources: http://www.farmingtoncanal.org/ maps seems little obsolete but is there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.252.13.114 (talk) 03:06, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

alternate names for Farmington Canal Heritage Trail

Due to its being adjacent to the tracks of the New Haven and Northampton Railroad, this is also referred to by a variety of names such as:

• New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway
• New Haven and Northampton Greenway
• New Haven & Northampton Canal Rail Trail
• New Haven / Northampton Railroad Canal Line
• New Haven–Northampton Railroad Greenway
• Northampton-to-New Haven rail trail

I didn't think we would want to pollute the article name space with all the possible redirects, but nor did I feel knowledgeable enough to choose from among them. Fabrickator (talk) 21:05, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Fabrickator: It's fine to create redirects for any names that are used elsewhere - see Wikipedia:Redirects are cheap. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 02:45, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I have dropped "Northampton Canal Park Trail" from the list above, that turns out to be "Northampton, PA" rather than "Northampton, MA". Fabrickator (talk) 03:55, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Fabrickator @Pi.1415926535

I just saw this discussion after creating New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway in support of the Mass Central Rail Trail page.

Please help me build consensus on the path forward. According to The New Haven & Northampton Canal Greenway Alliance, The Farmington Canal Heritage Trail is recognized by CTDOT, whereas everything in Massachusetts (Southwick Rail Trail, Columbia Greenway Rail Trail, Southampton Greenway, Manhan Rail Trail, New Haven Northampton Canal Line) is not recognized by CTDOT. https://sites.google.com/view/nhncg/mileage

Similarly, the official website seems to not include Massachusetts: https://fchtrail.org/

I can modify Farmington Canal Heritage Trail to be CT specific if this is agreed. Thanks! Rocketwidget (talk) 16:14, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

I would prefer having a single article that covers the whole length (New Haven-Northampton) so that all the relevant history is in one place. "New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway" is probably the correct title for that. Having separate articles for the Connecticut section, a portion of the Connecticut section, and one of the Massachusetts sections just results in the information being scattered and inconsistent. Also pinging @Trainsandotherthings: who's the expert here on the railroad. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 17:42, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Much of the line in Connecticut is part of the East Coast Greenway, but I'd say the Farmington Canal Heritage Trail designation comes closest to covering the entire length of the railroad right of way. I'm unsure to what extent the New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway is used by sources, but assuming they do use it that would be a good title as well. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 00:34, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Here is some documentation published on the official Farmington Canal Heritage Trail website https://fchtrail.org/faq-items/farmington-valley-trails-council-newsletter-april-2021/ by the Farmington Valley Trails Council in April 2021, that the seven nonprofit, volunteer-based organizations that support the trail formed to select a unified name, the New Haven & Northampton Canal Greenway" (NHNCG).

They agree that "The trail has different names depending on its location. In Connecticut, the trail is called the Farmington Canal Heritage Trail. In Massachusetts, the trail has these names: the New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway, the Manhan Rail Trail, the Southampton Greenway, the Columbia Greenway Rail Trail and the Southwick Rail Trail."

page 3: https://fchtrail.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/2021a-FVTC-Newsletter-3-29-21_final.pdf Rocketwidget (talk) 10:55, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

A Connecticut Department of Transportation press release states: "This project will connect the existing five-mile gap on the historical Farmington Canal Heritage Trail, an 81-mile multi-use rail trail located in Connecticut and Massachusetts...". The article can explain the Massachusetts preferred nomenclature, while treating it as a single entity, which I think would be consistent with the pre-existing usage. Of course we would have the redirects from the various names that Massachusetts prefers. Fabrickator (talk) 19:58, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Merge with New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway

I merged this article into New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway. LegalSmeagolian (hello there!) reverted with the edit summary "Not sure that this qualifies for a merge as a smaller part of a road that is known as something else and independently notable still is relevant for a page".

Lack of notability is only one reason to merge given by WP:MERGEREASON (specifically, reason 4). Based on the previous thread ("alternate names for Farmington Canal Heritage Trail"), it appears that "Farmington Canal Heritage Trail" can refer to either the CT portion or both the CT and MA portions. Merge reason 1 applies (duplicate articles) if the two names are for the same thing. Merge reason 2 applies if the two names are for different things (overlapping articles) given that the CT portion is 2/3rds of this trail. Merge reason 5 (shared context) also applies, given that the history of the canal and railroad need to be summarized for both topics.

Given this and the reliable sources cited above, I'd like to redo the merge and then tweak the text to say that FCHT can apply either to the CT portion or the entire NHNCG, and that the NHNCG can refer only to the MA portion or to the whole trail. (I had understood NHNCG as the whole trail and FCHT as only the CT portion, making the FCHT article look incorrect.) Thoughts? Pinging editors who participated in the above thread: @Fabrickator, Pi.1415926535, Rocketwidget, and Trainsandotherthings: -- Beland (talk) 00:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The question, in my mind, is what do we call the various parts of the larger trail (and, as I'll go into, if there is wider recognition of the various trails as part of one larger trail). For instance, the Manhan Rail Trail is clearly defined and should be ok to keep as its own article (in part because that segment was used by the PVRR until the 1990s and has its own dedicated nonprofit). One thing that strikes me is only one source in the New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway article even uses that name, and that source is actually a coalition of several trail groups that work with parts of the larger trail. I'd want to see usage of that name in other sources to justify us having an article by that name. I've personally biked the Farmington Canal Heritage Trail many times growing up, and there's never been any use of the New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway name to my knowledge (though there is mention of the canal/railroad, of course). Trainsandotherthings (talk) 00:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I do see New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway on Google Maps, though I'm not sure where that data is coming from. -- Beland (talk) 01:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

There is also this book which uses that name in the title, and several trail guide crowdsourcing sites that use it. [1] [2]. It was also used in a formal application to the federal Secretary of the Interior.[3] Beland (talk) 01:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I still oppose the merge due to WP:COMMONNAME - the org that helped to make this trail happen calls the trail the Farmington Canal Heritage Trail. Most news refers to the CT portion of the trail as the Farmington Canal Heritage Trail as such (7 pages of results on Google News for "Farmington Canal Heritage Trail" versus 2 for "New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway"). Additionally, WP:MERGING states that:

"Merging should be avoided if:

• The resulting article would be too long or "clunky",
• The separate topics could be expanded into longer standalone (but cross-linked) articles, or
• The topics are discrete subjects warranting their own articles, with each meeting the General Notability Guidelines, even if short."

LegalSmeagolian (talk) 14:37, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the common name for the CT portion is Farmington Canal Heritage Trail, but the merged article covers the entire trail. What is the most common name for that?

As I pointed out above, these topics are not discrete, they are overlapping. -- Beland (talk) 16:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I still don't see why it requires a merge - for a road we break them up all the time. See Interstate 84 in Connecticut versus Interstate 84 in Massachusetts versus Interstate 84 (Pennsylvania–Massachusetts). LegalSmeagolian (talk) 16:55, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

If we keep the articles separate, we would need to drop the claims from Farmington Canal Heritage Trail that part of it is in Massachusetts, and duplicate the "Railroad history" section, and both articles would be rather short. As Pi.1415926535 points out, there is also a third article on the FCSPT segment. Given how short the NHNCG article is, it seems overly scattered to have three levels of detail. -- Beland (talk) 18:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

You know, after reading the discussion above, I am not even sure if "New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway" should be its own article. Its a duplicate of this one, and the sources you provided do not establish notability for a "proposed" greenway. Much of Rocketwidget's comments appear to be OR. We need to follow Wikipedia's notability guidelines, and I am not sure if the "proposed" greenway meets those guidelines. I'm reverting my edits fixing the discrepancy and adding "also known as" - this should be a redirect at most. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 21:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd say it's more than proposed; it's under construction and mostly completed. -- Beland (talk) 23:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

FTR, I also see "New Haven-Northampton Railroad Greenway" on Google Maps. And I was not reading closely; one of the crowdsourcing sites linked in my previous comment uses "Canal Rail Trail" not "Canal Greenway" and "Canal Rail Trail" is also what was used in the Secretary of the Interior application, though the "New Haven and Northampton" part is the same. -- Beland (talk) 00:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

There are currently a number of articles that overlap somewhat in scope:

1. Farmington Canal: the original canal in Connecticut
2. Hampshire and Hampden Canal: the original canal in Massachusetts
3. New Haven and Northampton Railroad (NH&N): a railroad whose main line, the Canal Line, followed the canal alignment part of the way between New Haven and Northampton.
4. New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway: the entire set of rail trails, current and proposed, from New Haven to Northampton along the Canal Line alignment. The name is not widely used.
5. Farmington Canal Heritage Trail: the Connecticut portion of rail trail. It is supported by the Farmington Valley Trails Council (which originally focused on the northern section) and the Farmington Canal Rail-to-Trail Association (which originally focused on the southern section). The name is sometimes used for the whole trail, and the current article includes some information about the Massachusetts segments.
6. Farmington Canal State Park Trail: the Southington-Hamden segment of the Connecticut portion of the trail. It may have formerly been designated separately, but no longer appears to be. The article currently focuses mostly on the canal and not the trail itself.
7. Manhan Rail Trail: a rail trail in Massachusetts. Its north-south portion follows the Canal Line, while its east-west segment follows a former Connecticut River Railroad branch that was never part of the NH&N.

Several other trail portions in Massachusetts don't currently have articles: New Haven Northampton Canal Line trail (Northampton), Southampton Greenway, Columbia Greenway Rail Trail (Westfield), and Southwick Rail Trail.

(1) and (2) should probably be merged to present a coherent history of the canal. (3) is already a high-quality and correctly scoped article. (6) essentially duplicates (5) and should be merged no matter what. (7) is unlikely to ever be a substantial article and probably should be merged as well. The question at hand is what to do with (4) and (5), for which I see three possibilities:

• A: Keep both: New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway discusses all of the rail trails, including some detail about the Connecticut portion. Farmington Canal Heritage Trail is a separate article with all detail about the Connecticut portion of the trail.
• B: Keep New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway: New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway discusses all of the rail trails, including all detail about the Connecticut portion. [Farmington Canal Heritage Trail]] redirects there.
• C: Keep Farmington Canal Heritage Trail: Farmington Canal Heritage Trail discusses all details of the Connecticut portion of the trail. New Haven and Northampton Railroad#21st century is expanded with a brief list/table of the trails (towns, length, status).

In either (A) or (B), New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway could optionally be moved to a descriptive name like Canal Line rail trail or New Haven–Northampton rail trail since "New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway" doesn't seem to be widely used.

My preference would be for (B) with a rename. The rail trails, despite their various names, are expected to form a cohesive trail. Several of them already connect with nothing more than a change of signage, and there is clear collaboration between the nonprofits that have supported the various segments. I don't see a compelling case for having separate articles for certain sections - most are likely to be extremely short, and you end up duplicating a lot of the background information. (Right now, Farmington Canal Heritage Trail only contains about 6 sentences that are solely about the Connecticut portion - the rest is either shared background and the canal and railroad, or about the Massachusetts portion). Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Merging 1 and 2 under "New Haven and Northampton Canal" makes sense, given that was the name for both the CT and MA segments. So does 6 into 5. Merging 7 makes sense based on length, given that the other individual named segments don't have articles, and because there's a lot of overlap in background material.

I also support option B, with whatever "New Haven and Northampton X" name is most common or official. "Canal Rail Trail" has been used in a federal recognition application, but "Canal Greenway" has been used for a book and the non-profit coalition.

Also found MassDOT referring to it as the "New Haven and Northampton Canal/Manhan Rail Trail" [4].

In terms of coverage in the local Massachusetts press, "Canal Greenway" seems to be favored because that's the name of the book [5] and also that is what Southwick will be literally carving in stone in this monument [6] which designates the Southwick Rail Trail as part of the "New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway". That's the name I would pick as what so far seems to be the most common, official, and sticky, which means a rename wouldn't be needed. -- Beland (talk) 00:32, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I could support a merge with "Canal Greenway" as the title. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 02:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I believe the two canal articles should be merged together, as the canal was operated as a complete entity and the different companies have more to do with the requirement to charter canal or railroad companies separately in each state than any de facto distinction between them. The railroad article shows how a whole plethora of different companies were chartered for railroad building but all operated as the same company, and the Hartford and New Haven Railroad did the same thing as well. As part of my work to bring that article to GA, I boldly merged Hartford and Springfield Railroad into the main article, which has not been contested.

Moving on, the New Haven and Northampton Railroad is clearly notable on its own merits (I wrote most of that article). My biggest concern with the trail articles is that I can find very little usage of "New Haven and Northampton Canal Greenway" in sources, so adopting that name at the expense of the more widely used names would run against WP:COMMONNAME which is part of our article title policy. The trails all exist and connect or will connect, but I feel that based on our policies we need to have usage of the proposed name before we can adopt it as the title of an article. The earlier trails also have their own distinct history to the point I think they could merit their own articles. I think we could keep the trail articles and just mention they're part of a larger group of trails along the railroad alignment. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 20:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if the lack of usage of the name for the whole trail is simply because it is new, in which case we're supposed to look at only the post-adoption sources? The fact that "Canal Gateway" is literally going to be carved in stone says to me it's the right name. -- Beland (talk) 18:56, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

COMMONNAME still applies. Lacking unambiguous evidence that "Canal Greenway" is to be the official name for the entire trail in both states, I think we should use New Haven–Northampton rail trail for now. That kind of descriptive name is best where there's confusion about the official name, and it provides a stable name for us to work on the merged article. It's always easy to move later if/when an official name becomes clear. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 19:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems weird that in response to supposedly not knowing which name we can take as the most common, we make up a new name that no one is using. (Duck Duck Go has zero results for this; Google finds the Commonwealth of Massachusetts using the capitalized versions "New Haven - Northampton Rail Trail Corridor" and "New Haven/Northampton Rail Trail".) That said, I think it's better to merge into that and rename later than to not merge at all, though we still have two editors (including myself) who prefer "Canal Greenway". -- Beland (talk) 20:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

That's not an uncommon situation; WP:NDESC specifically notes that These are often invented specifically for articles. The various other names will still be mentioned in the article, and will redirect to it. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 20:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

That seems to be for the purpose of avoiding non-neutral names. -- Beland (talk) 00:36, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I know my opinion might be irrelevant, and possibly late to the discussion. But the name for the whole article that is apart of the former New Haven & Northampton Canal Rail line. I believe it should and needs to be moved and merged into a new article called *New Haven & Northampton Canal Rail Trail, similar to other wiki articles like Mass Central Rail Trail. Yeahimaboss413 (talk) 02:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)