Talk:FC Polissya Zhytomyr

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 12:23, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

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There is an indication from the current Ukrainian First League club, FC Polissya Zhytomyr (2016) that they are inheriting the history of all previous renditions of the club. As provided in their new logo they indicate that they were formed in 1959, the year that the former club was inaugurated. To keep the information streamlined here on Wikipedia is would be normal to expect all the information about the clubs in one article. This is typical scenario with Ukrainian clubs that become bankrupt or go into administration and then later reform and resurrect themselves with a new similar name. Examples are Arsenal Kyiv with Arsenal-Kyiv using the original name and historically referring it as theirs and the recently renamed club FC Obolon-Brovar Kyiv going back to the FC Obolon Kyiv. I've opened the discussion for a consolidation of the articles on FC Polissya Zhytomyr and FC Polissya Zhytomyr (2016).

@Aleksandr Grigoryev:, @Dimontschick:, @Krupolskiy Anonim:, @Andriyrussu:, @T-resh:, @GiantSnowman:, @Alex95-Ukraine: Please add your thoughts and include any other individuals who would be interested within the Ukrainian Football and WP:Footy Projects.

• Merge - As I have pointed up in the proposal the club is inheriting the former clubs history. It would streamline our Wikipedia articles to consolidate the two articles into one. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:45, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 18:38, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support - same as Darlington F.C.; the original club by that name went bust, a new club called Darlington 1883 F.C. was founded, and after the FA accepted the clubs were continuous, our articles were merged accordingly. I think that's right? (@Struway2: who has done a lot of good work on the Darlington article). GiantSnowman 18:44, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: I think I will probably support this too, but what I don't understand is why we have some articles separated while others not. Is there some kind of guidance for it? For example on the opposite to Darlington we have 2 articles about Rushden & Diamonds and Chester. Why is that? Also there are many other examples. In Italy clubs are reformed many times and we have one articles for them. While for Belgium clubs, like Beerschot, Lierse, Mouscron, we have two. Alex (talk) 19:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@Alex95-Ukraine: You bring up some good points and there are always points of view to the contrary. With regard to the two English clubs they actually have different names - Rushden & Diamonds F.C. and AFC Rushden & Diamonds, Chester City F.C. and Chester F.C. I think this would be similar to what we have in Ukraine with Metalist Kharkiv, Metalist 1925 Kharkiv and now also the new Ukrainian Second League team Metal Kharkiv which are all playing games with their name and why we would have resistance to have a merge. However, in the case of this merge it is exactly the same and the club is hiding any facts that they are a continuing the football legacy of the club. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 20:38, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@Brudder Andrusha: But name is almost always a little bit different in such situations. It's Darlington FC and Darlington 1883 FC; also we have one article for U.S. Città di Palermo and Palermo F.C., Reggina Calcio and Reggina 1914, US Triestina and US Triestina Calcio 1918 and others. Alex (talk) 22:15, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

There is no guideline. What tends to happen with British clubs, if the two are seen as the same club, they share an article; if a phoenix club is set up after the demise of and with no tangible connection to its predecessor, as with e.g. Rushden & Diamonds, they have separate ones. It's easier with clubs that folded decades ago, because we can use historical perspective based on reliable sources to decide whether they're viewed as separate clubs or not.

Darlington were in administration when a community-based group took them over, purchased their assets, took on some of their debts, but failed to agree terms with the club's creditors; so it became a "new club" under FA rules, hence the name change. A Darlington 1883 page was created, but when the FA let them resume the Darlington playing name, DFC1883 was accepted on enwiki as a continuation of the same club and the pages were merged. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support - a logical thing to do, would be less confusing with one merged page. This scenario is not unusual for another countries as well, like in Italy and others. Dimon 19:09, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@Brudder Andrusha: Also I think something should be done with FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih and FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih (2020). Looks like it will turn out the same as Veres Rivne-FC Lviv situation, as FC Hirnyk Kryvyi Rih whose place was taken by Zelensky team applied for Ukrainian Amateur Football Championship (http://www.aafu.org.ua/news/chempionat-aafu/919). could be another club named Hirnyk though.User:Dimontschick 20:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Dimontschick, it is not like Veres–FC Lviv officially, but I guess it may turn out to be, welcome to the Ukrainian football, so to speak. During the team presentation of the revived Kryvbas it was explained that it is merger and brand Hirnyk will stay with the revived Kryvbas for junior or reserve teams. I added information about it at the article. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose, I appreciate the invitation, but I have to point that the club was originally created in 2016 as MFC Zhytomyr and became Polissia during the 2016–17 winter break. One may see all the club's history at its website. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

We know that this is common practice within the framework of the Professional League of Ukraine that when a club has been withdraw from the league or has been excluded due to administration or that it finds a buyer/oligarch/benefactor that would keep the team alive registering it under the same name is impossible for five years. This was quite evident with FC Obolon Kyiv in 2013 when then returned back to the PFL they came in as FC Obolon-Brovar Kyiv. After some time (5 years is the limitation) the club then politely and quietly renames itself to what the club/fans/owner originally intended. There seems to be a similar situation with Polissya Zhytomyr where they had to start somewhere, and they could not use the original name. Hence as you say they had their beginnings back in 2016 to have the name MFK Zhytomyr. But now in 2020 they are quite apt to turn a blind eye to 2016 and incorporate the 1959 year as part of their beginnings and legacy. The question here is whether we in Wikipedia should have two branches when the club has consolidated its history. Also continual referral here on Wikipedia as FC Polissya Zhytomyr (2016) is a bit strange and a bit obtuse. At the worst, maybe FC Polissya Zhytomyr should be moved to FC Polissya Zhytomyr (1959) and FC Polissya Zhytomyr (2016) to FC Polissya Zhytomyr. Even in that case someone smart enough might come back and say both clubs started in 1959 - We have logos to prove it! Brudder Andrusha (talk) 21:18, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Brudder Andrusha, your explanation of how football business is conducted in Ukraine deserves compliments, but I am afraid it is not quite if you look at details and track the history. Technically the new club could conditionally be the successor since no other club claimed the lost brand. The new club also was created long after the original was disbanded. On the other hand, FC Cherkashchyna was established kind of soon after FC Dnipro Cherkasy was disbanded and it looked like a successor club. But then I learned that one of the original vice-presidents of Cherkashchyna was Volodymyr Khodak who owned an amateur club Khodak Cherkasy that coincidentally also was disbanded in 2009. Today we have both Cherkashchyna and Dnipro that will play one another in the Second League. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 00:34, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Brudder Andrusha, I would like to withdraw my opposition stance in regards to the proposal. You are right about streamlining articles on the same or similar subject and the club turned professional as Polissia without playing a game as MFC Zhytomyr at that level. It is not necessarily one and the same club, but the information about the original club is not big enough to keep it as a separate article. May be if someone more dedicated can write more extensive article, there could be created separate article about the Soviet club. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 01:37, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Comment: @Aleksandr Grigoryev:, @GiantSnowman: Good to see that this is still alive and a possible merge. Even though there has been some time I think consolidation is in the best interests for us. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 11:41, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.