Talk:Durham School (disambiguation)

disambiguation or not

I can't see that we need this page. There seems to be little need for disambiguation here. I have been working on the Durham School links - there are about 100 that I can see and all but about 6 point to Durham_School_(Durham,_England).

Surely we can have Durham School pointing to the one in England with the bit underneath that allows users to go the disambiguation page if they like?

If we feel this isn't possible, is there a tool that allows us to move all the Durham School links to Durham_School_(Durham,_England) since I'm sick of doing it manually?

Was there some discussion on the creation of this disambiguation page?--Teach46 (talk) 10:51, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for posting here and giving me notice at my talk page. I had created the Durham School disambiguation page because i had noticed duplication between the England school and similarly named places listed on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places (NRHP). I have created or developed many hundreds of disambiguation pages including NRHP listings. Although when i created this and many of the other NRHP dab pages, there were not yet wikipedia articles on them, it is generally held that historic sites with extensive documentation like all NRHP listings are wikipedia notable. So, it is a help to set up disambiguation in advance. To clarify further, i just now created NRHP stub articles on the other NRHP listings covered, and revised the dab page accordingly.

I think having a disambiguation page is best. I will acknowledge it is conceivable that the Durham School in England is more important in some sense than the U.S. ones, but I don't currently know how to evaluate that. The U.S. articles have not yet been much developed. If you wish for the England one to get the primary designation, it must meet stringent criteria for being the primary use of the term ( i think it is wp:primary? guideline that is relevant). I will watch here for further discussion. Hope this helps. doncram (talk) 11:38, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, as always, "more important" is a very subjective term. As regards "primary" (and I haven't read the wp:primary pages yet) I could as an opener suggest: Durham School - founded before Henry VIII refounded it in 1545 or so - pre-dating USA Durhams somewhat? I'm not sure if there are Durhams in places other than US? Anyway, I'm not wanting to start a flamewar, let's see what turns up in the discussion for a few weeks.--Teach46 (talk) 11:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

This seems to be a clear case of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. There are two schools on this page that are called "Durham School". One is a 500-year-old independent school with lots of coverage in third-party sources (sadly not included in the article at present). The other one seems to appear only in a bare entry in the NRHP. The other two entries have different names, but similarly limited coverage. Kanguole 11:51, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, I have looked at the various guidelines, as well as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, there's an entry in the missing manual that is relevant too.

All told, I suggest we change it in accordance with the guidlines so that Durham School links directly to Durham School in England and that there's disambiguation link at the top to the disambiguation page. The Arkansas school doesn't even link on Google.--Teach46 (talk) 12:04, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't necessarily disagree, but how are you all assessing which are the ones that get greater number of hits. The first two pages of Google search, for me here in the U.S., are all hits on the Durham School systems in Durham, North Carolina, Durham, California, Durham, New Hampshire, in the U.S. Forgive me, but I am not familiar with the England school whatsoever, so while it is impressive from its article that it is 500 years old, it does not necessarily mean that it is currently outstrips the others in importance, as would be required to meet wp:primarytopic. Maybe Google, when run in England, shows the English Durham School first. doncram (talk) 12:18, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

There are places called Durham in NC, CA and NH, but are there schools called "Durham School" in those places with lots of hits? If not, these Google hits are not relevant to the question here. Kanguole 12:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Doncram, you're probably right. In fact, this is the same argument used when Durham itself was attempted to be moved to point to the one in NC rather than here in the UK. The discussion is, or at least was, on the Durham talk page. It is interesting to note that Durham still points to the one in the UK. If you restrict Google to searching for Durham School (ie, not Durham Schools etc) then the only actual school that turns up is the one in the UK. Kangoule, this is your point entirely.

What is, I think, relevant, is that if someone enters the term Durham School in the Wikipedia search box what are they going to get? As it stands I suggest that they could go to the Durham School in the UK and then add the disambiguation as I've suggested above. If they are looking for Durham School Systems in NC then let's have a page that says that or, better, link to Durham Public Schools. But Durham School (as entered) seems to be pretty near unique.--Teach46 (talk) 12:37, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

There is Durham School of the Arts and some Durham High Schools, but again all different names. The only ones requiring disambiguation are the ones in England and Arkansas. Kanguole 12:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

And the one in Arkansas may not even exist as a school - I did a Google on it and it didn't turn up as such. Is it merely an historic building rather than a school now?--Teach46 (talk) 13:00, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

It would seem so, according to Washington County, Arkansas#Education. Kanguole 13:23, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Doncram, do you agree that the English school is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for this title? Kanguole 20:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry am just getting back here. Are some of you associated with the English school, I wonder? You seem perhaps a bit proprietary.

To respond, first of all the repeated assertions that disambiguation is not needed are bogus, because there are at least two wikipedia-notable places named exactly "Durham School". So some kind of disambiguation is needed. Also there are other places with the same two words in their name, and it is often helpful to include mention of those in a disambiguation page.

It has also been repeated that the NRHP-listed Durham School is no longer a school. So what, if that is so, that is its name. It has also been repeated that the NRHP-listed one is just a "bare entry" on the National Register, as if there is and never will be significant coverage of it. That also is false. You would be correct to say the article on it is just a stub so far, which is different. There exists publicly available extensive documentation on the architecture, history, etc. of the school, which is required for it to become listed on the NRHP, although that has not been added to the article.

That said, I don't mind if the English school one is deemed to be the primary topic, to appear with disambiguation by hatnote pointing to a disambiguation page renamed "Durham School (disambiguation)". doncram (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Move request

Whilst I am far from convinced that we actually need a disambiguation page at all - we're talking about allowing users to pick between two uses of Durham School, one a current school in the UK and one an historic landmark in the USA - if it is felt that we do then I propose moving this page to Durham School (disambiguation) and moving Durham School (Durham, England) back to simpy Durham School for the reasons discussed above.--Teach46 (talk) 07:46, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Teach46 has lodged a Requested Move, to be discussed at Talk:Durham School (Durham, England)#Requested move. (I have combined the two requested moves into one, as they are linked.) Kanguole 09:20, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, discussing there. I don't see why you would not place the Requested move discussion here, where the discussion has been occurring, but whatever. doncram (talk) 19:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)