Talk:Donbas operation (1941)

“Donbass became known as 'Donbas' only after the collapse of the Soviet Union”

Regarding these edits.

Firstly, that is irrelevant. This is Wikipedia in 2021, written in current English, for today’s readers. Imagine what articles about medieval Britain would look like if we actually followed that implied logic.

Secondly, that statement is absolutely false. A Google Books Ngram chart show that the spelling Donbas was most common during most of relevant history: Donbas/Donbass. Another shows that “Donbas operation” is the only spelling and capitalization used with significant frequency. Comparing book results before 2014 (with search conducted according to WP:SET guidelines) confirms that “Donbas operation” has over 2,100% higher frequency of usage:

• Donbas operation 204
• Donbass operation 9

@MarcusTraianus: before you make major changes to an encyclopedia article, please make the tiniest effort to confirm your preconceptions. If I haven’t missed anything, I will revert the changes and page move. —Michael Z. 14:45, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@Mzajac: Well, I don't know if you've looked at your links, but the situation is reversed. There are books about the 'Donbass Operation', but not about the 'Donbas Operation'. I am fine about the post–Soviet name of 'Donbas', but the historical reality cannot be changed. The Soviet command called this region 'the Donbass'. MarcusTraianus (talk) 14:59, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

The Soviet command called it Донбасс, and millions living there in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries called it Донбас, but the Soviet command is not mentioned in our guidelines and we’re not writing in their languages. Again, you’re constructing faulty logic based on your prejudices (=WP:ILIKEIT). If the situation is reversed, you’ll have to be more specific about some evidence, because I do not see that. I see three pages of results for the first, and almost a full one for the second, and 204 to 9 for Google’s estimated totals. The links I provided are to the last page where the accurate total can be read according to WP:SET, but the exact phrase is less likely to be given in Google’s previews. Look at the first page for more previews showing the search string. —Michael Z. 15:15, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@Mzajac: Prejudice? You are looking for something that I have not shown and do not support in principle. Once again, the title reflects historical reality, not my vision or my desires. And again, the provided links show that 'Donbass Operation' used nearly always, while refering to that conflict. It was officialy called 'Donbass'. People refered to Burma as Myanmar, but it got its current official name only after the collapse of the British Empire. That's why we have Burma Campaign page, not Myanmar Campaing. MarcusTraianus (talk) 15:31, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I described in detail that the links I posted show one thing, but you insist they show the opposite. If you don’t explain how you come to that conclusion, then I can’t determine if you’re misreading them completely or looking at something else altogether. —Michael Z. 15:49, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 14 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Arguments for moving are much stronger. (closed by non-admin page mover) ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 02:11, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

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Donbass Operation (1941) → Donbas operation (1941) –  

1. To satisfy WP:COMMONNAME.
   • Donbas operation is the most common spelling and capitalization of this article’s title in reliable sources. A Google Books Ngram Viewer frequency chart doesn’t even register the alternatives.
   • Google Advanced Book Search (conducted according to WP:SET, adding 1941 to filter out results about the current war) shows books favour this spelling by about 30 to 2 (+1,400%).
   • Google Scholar Search shows articles and citations favour this spelling by about 14 to 1 (+1,300%).
2. For WP:CONSISTENCY with the title of the main article about the geographical region, “Donbas” (move discussion).
   • Donbas is the most common spelling of the name found in reliable sources, both currently and historically. A Google Books Ngram Viewer frequency chart shows the alternative was only more common in new publications for about 15 years of the last century, but not in the subject’s year 1941, and not in the most recent data for 2019.
   • Donbas is used in subject-specific sources, e.g., Erickson 2019, The Road to Stalingrad: Stalin’s War with Germany,[1] Glantz, et al 2015, When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler,[2] Overy 1998, Russia’s War: A History of the Soviet War Effort: 1941–1945.[3]
3. For WP:CONSISTENCY with other article titles about both current and historical subjects. See search results for intitle:Donbas. (Also see this recent move discussion for War in Donbas.)
4. To afford consistent spelling of Donbas throughout the text of other Wikipedia articles.
5. The above serve all five main WP:CRITERIA for article titles.

   —Michael Z. 20:07, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support per detailed and strongly sourced nomination. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• SUpport clear casse of wp:commonname—blindlynx (talk) 13:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. We cannot use WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSISTENCY while talking about historical namings. Imagine using WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSISTENCY while appling to the current name of Kyiv: historically, "Kiev" superseded "Kyiv" by number of use, but we have "Kyiv" article, because it is how it is used today, not becasue of common name rule. Same with the Donbass: yes, now it is called 'Donbas', but in 1941, it was named 'Donbass'. MarcusTraianus (talk) 16:13, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  We’re supposed to ignore COMMONNAME and CONSISTENCY?? Which guideline says that? That other decision certainly relied on COMMONNAME: talk:Kyiv/Archive 7 § Requested move 28 August 2020. And I already demonstrated that Donbas was the more common spelling in 1941, twice. Here’s a close-up. Not that we should write in anachronistic language, anyway. —Michael Z. 18:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

>We’re supposed to ignore COMMONNAME and CONSISTENCY??
Well, if we are talking about historical namings, of course. It is a comletely different field.

>Not that we should write in anachronistic language, anyway.
It is not anachronistic. It is historical. I hope you know, that names of cities and places changes over time. It is natural. MarcusTraianus (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I don’t think those wp:CRITERIA are restricted to a particular field. Even so, Donbas is the historical spelling of the 1940s. —Michael Z. 20:28, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

It was named as Donbass in Stavka documents and other official documents. Again, it is article about battle that was waged by army of a state, it is named how organizational structrures named it. MarcusTraianus (talk) 07:20, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

No, it was named Донбасс in those documents, which were unpublished at the time. —Michael Z. 12:57, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Of cource it is named 'Донбасс', how it should be? And by the way, Donbass is used in other offical art. I just can't understand the entire problem. It was Byelorussia, now it is Belarus. It was Moldovia, now it is Moldova. It was Donbass, now it is Donbas. History as it is. MarcusTraianus (talk) 20:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

• CommentWhy was this page was moved to 'Donbass Operation (1941)' without discussion in the first place?—blindlynx (talk) 23:27, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

  I first moved it from this title because 1) we moved Donbas with consensus, 2) other historical articles used this spelling, and 3) I saw that old sources used this title. MarcusTraianus reverted, our conversation was an impasse, and so I filed this RM. All going as it should. —Michael Z. 00:57, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

  Cool—blindlynx (talk) 14:50, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

  It originally was named "Donbass Operation" and then it was moved to "Donbas Operation" without any move request. MarcusTraianus (talk) 07:17, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.