Talk:Dimitri Tiomkin

File:Dimitri Tiomkin.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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File:Dimitri Tiomkin and wife.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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File:Tiomkin, Dimitri at piano.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Ethnicity Jewish

As far as I know, Jewish is a Religion not Ethnicity. Besides, is it essentially to put this information to the infobox? He was known as composer not as jewish activist and what he thought about religion is not part of this article. And I don't find this detail in infoboxes of other filmcomposers, actors or directors (sorry, I'm not native english speaker) 84.62.139.132 (talk) 20:48, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Religion is not ethnicity. Tiomkin was Ukrainian.Royalcourtier (talk) 00:15, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

So-called "ukraine" didn't exist when and where he was born. He was Russian of the Jewish ancestry who later moved to US and became an American citizen. Banderovtci who try to invent the history of so-called "ukraine" by stealing the other people's history should be shot on the spot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.142.129.237 (talk) 22:18, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

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Birthplace

The area where he was born was part of Russia at the time, therefore he is Russian-born. Plus the sources provided describe him as born in Russia. ... discospinster _talk 23:46, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

It is more productive to discuss changes on the talk page rather than create an edit conflict.

His birthplace was part of the Russian Empire at the time, with potential ambiguity from other entities that have also been called Russia at times in history. Russia is also ambiguous with ethnicity. The land on which he was born is geographically Ukraine, hence Ukraine as his birthplace also has accuracy. BowTieTuba (talk) 23:56, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

The land was geographically Russia at the time he was born. The article does not say that he was Russian ethnically. ... discospinster _talk 00:00, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Russian Empire, Soviet Union, Russian Federation, or Russian ethnicity. "Russian" alone as an adjective does not improve accuracy or understanding. BowTieTuba (talk) 00:03, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Would "Kremenchuk-born" be even greater accuracy then? Mellk (talk) 00:07, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

This modern biography of Dimitri Tiomkin states city names alone. BowTieTuba (talk) 00:42, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@BowTieTuba: You made unsourced changes starting with this one. CurryTime7-24 reverted you and added sources, but you restored your changes and asked him/her to start a talk page discussion instead? I do not understand. Mellk (talk) 23:48, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

His birthplace was elsewhere already sourced as Kremenchug, which is geographically Ukraine. BowTieTuba (talk) 00:00, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

At the time he was born it was geographically Russia. I'm not sure how else to explain it. ... discospinster _talk 00:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

It was geographically which Russia? "Russian" is also still ambiguous with ethnicity rather than geography. You mean one thing, and readers may interpret another. BowTieTuba (talk) 00:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

The relevant guideline is MOS:ETHNICITY. If RS often call him Russian-born or stress that he was born in Russia, then it will probably be included. Mellk (talk) 00:07, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

The issue with the RS cited, is that they are predominantly if not entirely from his obituaries in 1979, and two of the three appear to be the same article on different websites. In 1979, Russia implied Russian Empire, a distinction that it does not necessarily imply today. Russian Empire or Russian Empire Ukraine would be more clear than "Russian" alone. An article about Dimitri Tiomkin by Milton Esterow on July 21, 1957 in the New York Times states that Dimitri Tiomkin spoke Ukrainian, hence an argument can be made for this inclusion. BowTieTuba (talk) 00:39, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, because that is how he was regarded during his lifetime. Because the place is no longer Russia does not suddenly mean his birth citizenship is revoked or changed posthumously. Immanuel Kant is still German, even though where he is born is now part of Russia. As for your argument about the ambiguity of "Russian," the term "Ukraine" and "Ukrainian" are no less ambiguous, according to your logic. Are we referring to Russian Imperial, Austrian, Polish-Lithuanian, or Soviet Ukraine? That's not counting the handful of short-lived Ukrainian republics of the 1920s. Whether he spoke Ukrainian or not is still irrelevant as the matter here isn't his ethnicity, but his birth citizenship. (Mentioning it in the lead would also go against MOS:ETHNICITY anyway, unless his ethnicity played a key role in his fame, which it didn't.) —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 00:50, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Here's a United Press International article from 2000:

But Tiomkin, who drew from his fellow Russians [emphasis mine], created some of the most memorable film music [...]

As with a lot of musicians and artists who were born in the Ukraine of the former Russian Empire and USSR, their birth citizenship was a non-controversial issue until this year. In Tiomkin's case, edits claiming he was a Ukrainian citizen by birth did not appear until September 2022. However, because he was born in this region does not make him "Ukrainian" in the sense that he is Russian according to the lead. Maybe Aaron Copland ought to be a "New Yorker" instead of an "American" too? (The latter also potentially an ambiguous term.) —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:02, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, the best course for this article may be to remove any mention of Russian-born or Ukrainian-born entirely, both in the article description lead and in the article text itself, as this is apparently contentious and open to dispute. After the birthdate information, it might best read, "was an American film composer and conductor born in the Russian Empire in what is today Ukraine." This is accurate and neutral. Dimitri Tiomkin was a naturalized American citizen, so this is perhaps best fitting. BowTieTuba (talk) 01:51, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure how Tiomkin's birth citizenship is contentious, given that it is a verifiable and irrefutable matter of historical record. That you wish for a country that did not exist at the time of his birth to claim him posthumously does seem to be contentious, however. I think something like "Russian Imperial-born" would suffice; your choice of wording is a confusing mouthful. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:04, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

While "born in the Russian Empire in what is today Ukraine" provides the most clarity for the reader about birth geography and identity, "Russian Imperial-born" would be more accurate than "Russian-born". BowTieTuba (talk) 02:27, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

These are fair questions to raise, though the changes you made were completely unsourced. And there are sources in the body that seem to refer to him as Russian or of Russian origin. It is best to look into sourcing further and discuss this further. Without trying to edit war. Mellk (talk) 01:13, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Here's another reference to Dimitri Tiomkin being Russian, from the biography on his official website. It makes no reference to his being Ukrainian, refers to "the Ukraine," utilizes the Russian equivalents of place names, mentions only Tiomkin's Russian name, and refers to him as a "Russian composer." —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:25, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Dimitri Tiomkin as a deceased individual would not appear to have an official website. This reference appears to be a fan site, as no group, entity, or organization is listed as its creator. Why it claims to be "official" is not stated. BowTieTuba (talk) 01:54, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

He apparently does; so do a lot of other dead composers, including Stravinsky, Shostakovich, and Schnittke. All, including the Tiomkin site, are administered by the composers' heirs and representatives. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:01, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

How do you know this site is administered by his heirs and relatives? BowTieTuba (talk) 02:28, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

It is run by an entity that owns the rights to several of his scores, which in turn is administered by Universal Music. See below. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:35, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, @Mellk. Please see discussion above for suggested edits for consensus to resolve and add clarity and accuracy for this article. BowTieTuba (talk) 01:58, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

For those wondering who runs Dimitri Tiomkin's website, they provide the following information here:

The official website for Dimitri Tiomkin contains the most comprehensive information available for the life and works of the composer. The website highlights current monthly articles by author and researcher Warren M. Sherk, a noted authority on Tiomkin. The News page features new research, upcoming concerts, and recent recording releases. The Feature articles section contains Sherk’s newly researched historical articles about the composer’s life and work. Awards and Filmography are comprehensive lists sorted by year; the Gallery contains 2,200 film posters images and contemporaneous photographs; and an Archives section contains film cue sheets and content listing of the USC Dimitri Tiomkin Collection. The website has searchable catalogs for: 1. The Dimitri Tiomkin Collection at USC; 2. 2,200 poster and lobby card images housed in the USC Collection; and 3,600 early family letters translated from Russian. [...] The website is owned by Volta Music Corporation [...] Volta Music Corporation is Tiomkin's publishing arm and owns the music and publishing rights to a number of his film and television scores, including High Noon and Rawhide, and is owner of the official website DimitriTiomkin.com.

Volta's affairs are also managed by Universal Music, not exactly a bunch of Tiomkin-heads running a "fan site." —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:31, 11 November 2022 (UTC)