Talk:Diesel generator

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/nsps/cinsps/fr11jy06.pdf Link to EPA regulations for stationary sources.

Also read Diesel Engines II by Kees Kuiken. He talks about how to spec up to 100,000KW engines in marine vessles and powerplants. Main engine manufactures (500 to 30,000KW): CAT (MaK)/Daihatsu Diesel Co/MAN-B&W Diesel/S.E.M.T. Pielstick/Wartsila/etc

--138.226.68.6 (talk) 20:24, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Questions

What does a KW or MW generator sizing or capacity mean? Is it that many Kilo Watts or Mega Watts per second? per hour? per day? This article should explain sizing / capacity at the top. By comparison, most electrical meters are KWH or Kilo Watt Hours. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.58.202.32 (talk) 07:51, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

You obviously do not understand what a MW is - is is the rate of delivering energy. 1 MW is 1 thousand Joules of energy per second. There is no such unit as a MW per second.

What are various types of generators?

Why is this article centered around specific companies and United Kingdom? 212.92.145.60 07:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Because maybe more sources are needed. feel free to add... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.160.108.51 (talk) 11:29, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Engine Damage

Moved (Tone) tag to this section as top portion of article not bad but from this section down appears a straight copy, and some material and later sections require re write to suit context as possible CopyVio, and over weight to article. Section has relevance as informative to readers of an overlooked effect of non use of equipment.

will try to get back and fix later ( along with all the others I cross) BulldozerD11 (talk) 14:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

KWH means: it is a unit of electrical energy(power) .Yes it is kilo watt per hour energy generated or transmitted or dissipated per hour. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.245.48.2 (talk) 09:19, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

To do

<snip /> Things I may get to do if it rains this weekend. --Wtshymanski (talk) 13:59, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I've moved this to the sub-page to keep better track of it. Thanks for the list. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent edit lost 3/4 of article due to open ref tags, and now has no refs at all ! dont get the bet between the open ref tags Wtshymanski, so removed tags and put at end of the sentence, you lost original weak ref in the pruning i think , I leave you to sort out as data base keeps locking -BulldozerD11 (talk) 15:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

That was what we in the industry call a mistake -which I thought I'd fixed. Looking closely at the photo the Egyptian gen-set is just sitting on the sand, and there's no muffler hooked up. I greatly doubt a tourist place is going to tolerate the roar of even a medium-sized genset at full output, so I conclude this genset was in progress between unloading and installation. --Wtshymanski (talk) 00:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

unreliable sources

I disuppute that - the main reference has been published at an open university conference, and by the Institution of Diesel and Gas Turbine Engineers Journal, the IDGTE, and in a book, Renewable Energy and the Grid , Ed Godfrey Boyle, publisedh by Earthscan, p 143 - 147.

How can you get more authoritative on generators than the manufactureres manuals and data sheets?Engineman (talk) 15:12, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

The tag says "third-party". A manufacturer is hardly an independent source. Secondly, very little of the article is referenced using inline citations - this makes it very difficult to ascertain whether a particular statement comes from a source or whether it is the opinion of the editor who added it. Thirdly, there are huge chunks of prescriptive text in this article which offer advice or try to teach subject matter. This is not the purpose of an encyclopedia: we are here to describe content, not to act as a manual or textbook. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Recent additions

While the recent additions to the article constitute valuable addition of information, they have rather disrupted the article flow. I hope to take some time to rewrite them in order to be better integrated with the article as it was. In the course of doing so I'll remove the prescriptive information and try to tag the article for appropriate inline citation. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

manufacturers

I understand where you are coming from on this, but no body else is really interested in the minutea of generator installation....the manufacturers are not going to lie about it, it is not in their interest.

There is no better source of information.

Any way if you wait, I'll try and get round to finding some better references. I think anyone turning to this article is entitled to be told in simple terms how to ensure that a generator actually works, and how to ensure it is installed properly. to do anything less strikes me as being overly pedantic.Engineman (talk) 15:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Engineman (talk) 18:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

we are here to describe content, not to act as a manual or textbook

Well this article doesn't act as a manual or a text book - it advises people of the issues gives them a bit of insight and directs them to the real sources of know how - the manufacturers detailed installation manuals and data sheets.Engineman (talk) 18:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

"A bit of insight" is precisely what is meant by acting as a manual or textbook. The tone of the article isn't fitting an encyclopedia: from the guestimated fuel costs to the overly-detailed guide to the causes of engine glazing, this article spends far more time discussing the intricacies of running and maintaining a diesel generator than it does actually describing it as other engineering articles do. As I say, I'll try to work on this soon. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok - fair point - maybe the glazing bit should go in its own article - "damage to engines"? ```` Engineman (talk) 18:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I am evaluating backup power systems and found this article useful. I agree that more reference links to independent information (textbooks, conference proceedings, etc.) and major vendors would lend credibility. The discussion on engine damage was the best I've seen, though it has a certain "cut-n-paste without credit" tone to it. Also, a lot more links to wiki articles on load sync, backup power, use of bio-diesel, etc. would be useful and help to remove the plagiarism feel. I support leaving this as an article with more polish rather than merging into something else. --Brookfield53045 (talk) 15:16, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

what are articles for?

Surely to inform readers about stuff they don't know?

Everyone knows what a diesel generator is, they don't need an encyclopedia to tell them that. So they re using the pedia to get more information - maybe they want to buy one?

This article as it is will be very useful.

Some people may be interested in engine damage.. where else would you put it? seems a bit pointless to put it in its own article somewhere else.

After All they don't have to read everything - they can just pick out the bits that interests them.Engineman (talk) 19:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, "what a diesel generator is" is the whole point of this article, along with "what does it do", "how does it work", "where can it be found" and "what impact has it had in the world". "Where would I buy one", "how do I fix it", "What opinion do Wikipedia's editors have of it" et cetera are outside its scope. Wikipedia is not an exhaustive collection of information, however "useful" someone might find it; just because something is true, or useful, or important, doesn't mean that it belongs here. There are plenty of other places on the Internet for such material, such as WikiBooks, or Wikiversity, or even on completely unrelated websites. Wikipedia is not a replacement for the rest of the Internet any more than it is a replacement for the Open University. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

it may not be perfect but much better than most of the diesel stuff in wickipedia.it has an high info/hotairbs ratioWdl1961 (talk) 02:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the above comments reveal a lack of understanding. This is no way a comprehensive and exhaustive collection of information. It is a condensed version of what someone who is interested in buying or using a diesel generator might want to know.

A comprehensive source would be a) the manual for a specific set which runs to the length of a short book, and tb) the detailed engine and generator application guidelines published by many different manufacturers, which again each run to the length of a book. This article is a fair summary of the important and relevant points to note about sets, and some notes on how they are applied. no way can this be construed as a how to article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Engineman (talk • contribs) 04:45, 12 November 2008

And again, "someone who is interested in buying or using a diesel generator" should not be the target audience of this article. If I wanted to buy a dog, the last place I'd look for information on them would be in an encyclopedia. If I didn't know what a dog was, and wanted an overview of what the creature did and what place it had in our world, then I'd look in an encyclopedia. Right now this article devotes considerable attention to such intricacies as power usage and operating costs, with what I would consider to be the meat and bones of the subject confined to one section ("Diesel generator set"). There's still lots of work to be done here. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk

12:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

With great respect, everyone does in fact know what a dog is, and what a diesel generator is. The only reason they would look it up in a pedia is to find out some more stuff they don;t know.

They aren't in most cases going to buy a dog manual, or a generator mamaual as there first port of call. In the case of the gen set, this contatins good stuff they would be glad to have read up on. And they don;t have to read it all.16:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Is the Cummins diesel generator in picture a 500 kVA unit?

To me it looks more like a 50 kVA unit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.46.102.187 (talk) 10:41, 21 November 2009 (UTC) Maybe it is the 500KVA Cummins Diesel Generator, I used to see a picture of this unit in sino-genset.com. You may go to this website to check it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingtepower (talk • contribs) 15:31, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

The Cummins generator set is powered by a large inline six truck engine derivative so 500 kVA would seem to be a good approximation. It is definitely NOT installed -- note there are no leads coming from the circuit breaker, no fuel lines connected, no silencer, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.97.240.97 (talk) 13:48, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

File:Caterpillar's SpecSizer.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Caterpillar's SpecSizer.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests October 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 13:17, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Clean up

Please consider improving the clarity of the third sentence under Rating. It says:

"That is a standby set is only expected to give its peak output for a few hours per year, whereas a continuously running set, would be expected to give a somewhat lower output, but literally continuously, and both to have reasonable maintenance and reliability."

Njivy (talk) 16:38, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Diesel generator or engine generator ?

Hi, from translation point of view I changed the french interwiki directed to this article to engine generator article. This article is a spcific case of engine generator. Perhaps a better splitting of the information between the two english articles will help to clarify the correct definition of both articles. Snipre (talk) 22:33, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

generators

Can I confirt 220 volt 3 phase to 600 volt 3 phase — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.69.25.199 (talk) 23:35, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

See Transformer, --Elektrik Fanne 10:31, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Peak Lopping

Background :Electricity supply companies charge consumers for the 'amount of power' that they consume in addition to 'their rate of consumption'. For example: Two consumers who both use the same amount of electricity in a month but one uses it over two days and one over the whole month, then the one who uses it over the two days will be penalized in their billing because the supply company will need to install more expensive, higher capacity equipment to supply them.

The financial benefit of peak lopping is reflected in the billing by the supply company. There is a charge per unit energy in cents/kWh and a demand charge which is based on the maximum demand that is recorded for the billing period, this is in $/kVA (power) the much more expensive one is the demand charge so it is better to draw energy for longer periods of time at cents/kWh than to draw it quickly and pay a premium rate for the demand in $/kVA.

Peak-lopping refers to a situation whereby the consumer chooses to cut the peak demand that they require in order to avoid paying the penalties associated.

There are various means of implementing peak-lopping measures. I some buildings the Building Management System will simply switch off items such as Geysers and certain Air Conditioning units when the building starts drawing too much power.

Other means of peak-lopping generally involve storing the energy in some way during times of low demand for use later when it is needed during times of higher demand. An example of such a solution would be to use electricity during the night to make ice in an insulated ice storage tank and use the ice during the day to cool the Air conditioning units. This would reduce the amount of power they require during the day when there is a high demand for electricity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.64.255.228 (talk) 07:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Diesel generator. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081107052610/http://www2.sea.siemens.com:80/Industry%20Solutions/Marine to http://www2.sea.siemens.com/Industry%20Solutions/Marine
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100107144324/http://www.claverton-energy.com/?dl_id=131 to http://www.claverton-energy.com/?dl_id=131

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 21:30, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Diesel generator. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100217164416/http://www.claverton-energy.com:80/download/131/ to http://www.claverton-energy.com/download/131/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 17:23, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Diesel generator. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/
• Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/5uL1LOLWS?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedigitalship.com%2Fpowerpoints%2FSMM06%2Flng%2FBarend%2520Thijssen%2C%2520wartsila.pdf to http://www.thedigitalship.com/powerpoints/SMM06/lng/Barend%20Thijssen,%20wartsila.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:49, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Is this right?

Quote: "A diesel compression-ignition engine is usually designed to run on diesel fuel, but some types are adapted for other liquid fuels or natural gas". Is this right? I'd have thought an engine running on natural gas would have spark ignition. Roberttherambler (talk) 11:54, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Good question, it's complicated and we need a real article on it.

Generator engines are often run on natural gas (it's cheap, especially in oil or gas fields). "Diesel" engines are large, powerful and built by the sort of companies who already make diesel generators. They're also (by the fundamental Carnot cycle limit) higher compression ratio, thus potentially more efficient. So how does it work? Usually by dual fuelling them, using an injection of a high cetane number (i.e. diesel fuel) pilot fuel (i.e. igniter fuel), which is ignited by compression ignition, then ignites the main charge of gas. Once burning, the gas combustion is self-sustaining, so a large Diesel cycle engine (i.e. Diesel's original, but now rarely used, cycle) only needs a tiny quantity of this pilot fuel.

There's also the issue that spark ignition doesn't work for high compression ratios (>12:1), as it runs into knock problems. That represents a limit, due to Carnot, which is most easily fixed by returning to a more Diesel-like cycle.

Note that this is different from the military use of multifuel engines (diesel / petrol) for tanks in the 1960s. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

I think you are saying that most modern gas engines are, in fact, dual fuel engines and require a small quantity of liquid pilot fuel. Some of the buses in my area run on compressed natural gas. They are described as gas-powered, and nobody ever mentions pilot fuel, but perhaps they think it is too complicated for the peasants to understand. Roberttherambler (talk) 12:56, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

In theory, Diesel engines could run on any fuel that can be pumped by the injection pump at engine operation temperature. Usually, it should not ignite immediately; however, chamber engines such as precombustionchamber and swirlchamber engines as well as direct injected engines with a special piston (for instance MAN M) could run on petrol when adjusted properly. Also, "normal" series production chamber engines could run on a blend of diesel engine fuel and petrol without any modification (for instance the BMW M21 that could run on a diesel-petrol mix of 17:3 to prevent fuel flocculation; well this is not necessary any longer since in 1993, diesel fuel was finally "invented".)

For Diesel engines running on LNG it works as Andy Dingley explained. So there is no spark plug needed and it is sort of right. However, if the engine is running on LNG only with no pilot injection, it is an Otto engine with spark plug ignition. Something also worth mentioning is the principle of exterior fuel preparation for Diesel engines. Usually, Diesel engines compress air and the fuel is injected afterwards. For starting historical Diesel engines, sometimes a spray called Startpilot is sprayed into the air filter while the engine is being cranked. It works like petrol being carburetted in an Otto engine with compression ignition. Spraying too much Startpilot into the air filter can cause the engine to runaway. Over here the busses also run on Gas (LPG), they have Otto engines.

Further reading:

*Wärtsilä 50DF product guide. Page 43/240

*Hans List: Thermodynamik der Verbrennungskraftmaschine. In: Hans List (Hrsg.): Die Verbrennungskraftmaschine. Nr. 2. Springer, Wien 1939, ISBN 978-3-7091-5197-6, doi:10.1007/978-3-7091-5345-1. Page 41

*Betriebsanleitung BMW E28. 4–20

--Jojhnjoy (talk) 18:50, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. Please see also: Talk:Gas_engine#Compression_ratio. Roberttherambler (talk) 19:46, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Engine damage (2)

This section refers to diesel engines in general, not just diesel generators. I intend to move it to a separate article. Roberttherambler (talk) 15:16, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Done. See new article Diesel engine problems. Roberttherambler (talk) 15:33, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Safety and Other Issues Regarding Continuous Run VS. Variable Schedule

I'm trying to educate myself on 100kw or larger diesel power plants. Particular questions? Continuous run VS. off time switching to battery systems. Typically generators kick on when battery reserves reach 25%. Are there increased safety issues with these shutting on and off? Does it cause maintenance issues in the long run? That's my original hypothesis. What is the risk of hydrocarbon gas build-up while the generator is shut off? I know others have written that it is best that the generator runs non-stop. I believe Caterpillar even recommends that for its larger generators. You pick a load level, you stick with it and run it continuously. Some of the big CATS can run non-stop for 14 years. I also wanted to confirm what I believe could be harm to a larger generator run at only 1/4 load. What are the variable for maintenance or performance issues compared with 1/4 load, 1/2, 3/4 and full load? I know to get the best bang for your buck on fuel consumption it is best some times to run at 3/4 load with these large generators. My conclusion right now without more information is that it will be harsh on a 100kw generator to shut on and off for one year. But some underground emergency facilities plan on relying on just such a system. Alarmingly these facilities are placing their back-up generators close beside their primary generators. Facilities like this typically might have two CAT 400's. I'm questioning the wisdom of putting those big CATS side by side if they have internal fuel tanks. I also question the wisdom of placing these systems underground. Every time that big generator kicks on it will kick out an electrical field. Having it kick on and off every day is 365 start-ups. I don't like the idea of that at all. That would certainly present problems I would think. Common sense is telling me that, anyways, whether it is a CAT, A Cummins, a Generac or any of the big ones. Comments from an actual engineer please? Lord El Supremo (talk) 13:20, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia article, not a textbook on design and applications. This level of detail is not appropriate for this article. --Wtshymanski (talk) 23:12, 15 August 2021 (UTC)