Talk:Assamese cuisine

Focus on cuisine, not food habits

Currently the article is taking in the names of a lot of common food items. Though it might be of interest, the focus of this article must be the cuisine, not the food habits of the people—what they eat and what they don't. The ingredients should be mentioned only if it has a bearing on the cuisine. I suggest we discuss this here and edit the article. Chaipau (talk) 13:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I have asked that no edit be made before we discuss the matter. Please post your comments, etc, below. Thanks. Chaipau (talk) 18:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Assamese Cuisine

I am writing a blog on assamese cuisine.Can i put it up in wikipedia?The site is www.tasteofassam.blogspot.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomi80 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

No. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Beef eating

The cited text on beef-eating in Assam was removed by Vishwanath2008 twice, [1], [2]. Removing cited material is WP:DE, so please do not remove it again, without sufficient case. That beef was not as trenchantly taboo before colonialism has been commented on by others in general (not specific to the Assam case). For example, D N Jha has elaborated on this issue---in https://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/jul/13/historybooks.highereducation the reveiwer writes, Or, as DD Kosambi put it in his Ancient India (1965), why "a modern orthodox Hindu would place beef-eating on the same level as cannibalism, whereas Vedic Brahmins had fattened upon a steady diet of sacrificed beef". The answer lies in the 19th century, when many newly emergent middle-class Hindus began to see the cow as an important symbol of a glorious tradition defiled by Muslim rule over India. For these Hindus, the cause for banning cow-slaughter became a badge of identity, part of their quest for political power in post-colonial India. 19th century was colonial times in India. So the cited source and its claim is in line with the general scholarship on beef eating in India in general. Chaipau (talk) 11:23, 11 September 2022 (UTC) (edited) 11:24, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Is that proves, or does it talk about assam. Idk and I dont think so that the author has immense knowledge about early hinduism and ancient India. And specifically you are using 'the Guardian' which is naturally a left leaning news site, can you suggest a neutral paper. And also we are discussing about Assam, where protecting 'cows' was one of the main duties considered by the kings, even by the ahom kings, this is evident from the fact many messenges refered to protecting 'cows and brahmans' specifically the message sent by Chakradhwaj Singha to his commanders before the re-capturation of Guwahati in 1667. Also you may also agree that people of assam is the late medieval times were mostly shankaris/mahapurusxiya's or saktas for whom both cow was dear sacred. Also in the sakta camp, bull or buffalo's were sacrificed not cows, the orthodox shankaris didn't even pork. And also Vishwanath2008 (talk) 10:19, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

@Vishwanath2008: please do not edit war on this issue without reliable sources. The text has been cited, but you have not provided any source. Protecting "cows and brahmins" was always used in code by the Ahoms and that too in later times. This does not mean people did not eat beef. Gadadhar Singha was known to relish roasted calfs, much after Chakradhwaj Sinha. Most of the people were not Mahapuruxiya, but many were outside the ambit of either forms of Hinduism. And even among those who were Mahapurixiya, not all gave up their older habits. There were the ratikhowas sects within the Vaishnavite traditions that practiced Tantric, or rather, folk tantric rituals that defied all taboos. So the general tenets of a religion cannot be projected on to actual practice, which anyway is against WP:SYNTH rules. There was no taboo against beef except probably in certain sections of the population in pre-colonial Assam, and you will need specific citations to specify your case. Chaipau (talk) 12:25, 25 September 2022 (UTC) (edited) 13:49, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

I have went through thr citation you had given and it says 'it was eaten before the cast system' in here what do they mean by cast system. Also you talked about Gadadhar Singha, yes it is said that he used to eat roasted calf but nowhere it is written that he was a full fledge hindu or sakta. The formal sakta kings are only- Siva Singha, Pramatta singha, Rajeswar Singha, Lakshmi singha and Gaurinath Singha. Jayadhwaj singha was the first one to take formal initiation of Niranjan dev, from him to Lora Roja and again from Kamaleshwar Singha all were formal vaisnav who took initiation of either brahman gurus or shudra. As far as I remember that Kamaleshwar Singha was a disciple of a Shudra Guru belonging to Kal samathi and according to the greatest 5 sin a man could do, also include (goru vadh)/ cow killing. And also you had talked about ahoms eating beer even after hindusization, but the whole claim is based on a raw colonial gatzear, also the ahoms they probably taked about was the gentry ahom class like- choudangs or changmai's even they have left it presently. And also this page talks about assamese cusine, what the purpose of putting that text there? In the 18th century only two particular religions were there- Vaisnavism and Saktism, fow which majority belonged to the Vaisnav sect and remaining to the sakta sect where the king belonged. Vishwanath2008 (talk) 06:38, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Beef* Vishwanath2008 (talk) 06:40, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

You are projecting the current taboo of beef into the past. The abhorrence to beef is a recent phenomenon and has been increasing in recent times. I have already showed above that D N Jha and Kosambi who have pointed this out. Guha (2016 edition) writes in his "Planter Raj to Swaraj" about the influence colonialism had on the people of Assam. "Traditional Assamese dress, hair-do, manners, culinary art, and even other forms of culture" were influenced by "westernization and sanskritisation" (p55). Sastric rituals have been increasing and the rigidity and orthodoxy of the caste increased after colonialism (p56). Assam has continued to import orthodoxy and it has happened till today.

So there are two points being made here. Beef itself was not especially taboo before colonialism and that Hindu orthodoxy has been increasing in Assam. Guha, Jha and Kosambi supports the claim made by Goswami in the cited reference. So please do not project the current state of neo-Vaishnavism, Hnduism and other orthodoxy to claim what happened in the past. Goswami has made a specific comment about eating habits which is supported by other scholarship. And Assamese cuisine is not the cuisine of only the caste-Hindu Assamese, but it is the common cuisine of all indigenous groups, including the muslims and non-caste-hindu peoples. Chaipau (talk) 11:01, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

The arguments you have put forward are WP:SYNTH, since you are projecting from the current orthodoxy, and that too they hold for only a section of the current eating habits of Assam's population and their cuisine. Your arguments against a citation making a specific claim is not enough. Chaipau (talk) 11:10, 28 September 2022 (UTC) (edited) 14:27, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

@Jonardondishant:, please do not use Gait. Gait is not a reliable source. Look here: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_172#Are_British_Raj_ethnographers_unreliable.3F. In any case, both citations are more recent and reliable. Chaipau (talk) 12:45, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

@Vishwanath2008: I have reverted your edit as not relevant since the source claims that Vaishnavism made liquor, pork and beef taboo. But we know that pork and liquor are widely consumed, despite they being taboo. The 'Xaj' liquor of the Ahoms, for instance, is now widely used and not just by the Ahoms. Selectively using this source to claim that only beef is taboo is WP:OR/WP:SYNTH at best. Forthermore, not all Ahoms are Vaishnavites, some belong to non-Vaishnavite sects; and many among the Vaishnavites follow secret sects like the ratikhowa folk tantra traditions that break taboo rules. Please do not use religious orthodoxy to claim something is not practiced in real life. Chaipau (talk) 05:00, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Furthermore, this news suggests that cattle is being imported from Bihar and Uttar Pradesh for slaughter. Yasmin Saikia (2006) reports that sacrifice of a cow is important for the Hu-pat ceremony of the Ahoms. She writes: Beef, taboo among Hindus, became an integral part of the new Tai-Ahom diet, as did partaking of local alcohol called haj or lau pani, and The ritual killing of a cow and partaking of beef to establish the finality of conversion, however, was not readily accepted by many supporters of Tai-Ahom, as I found out in the course of my stay in several villages.16 Nonetheless, Bak Ok and particularly Nagen Hazarika, one of its active members, deemed the Hu-pat ceremony crucial to making the Ahoms different from the Hindus and insisted on adhering to this custom. Nagen Hazarika performed this ritual on many occasions, which he documented in many photographs that he shared with me. Chaipau (talk) 05:21, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Taboo is there on the pork and liquor, but not strictly adhered, like the beef one. Rati-knowa sect is a secret cult, and are few in numbers in the present days. Also you are mixing up the tradition of Kala samathi with every one, kal samathi gives freedom on the tribal beliefs but not in the case of the others. samathi's.

Hu-pat is a revivalism element. The whole revivalism process is due to differentiate between the Hindus and to create a separate identity. And Yasim Sakia specifically says 'new tai-ahom diet', which doesn't mean that all ahoms follow that, or in the influence of the revivalist. Vishwanath2008 (talk) 14:22, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

There is no claim made here that all Ahoms eat beef. There is no claim that all Ahoms eat pork and drink xaj either. The claim is simply that beef is part of the cuisine. Burman, following Goswami, says it was widely eaten till the British; and Gogoi, and Saikia report that it is eaten now. Please do not try to push your POV against beef in Wikipedia. Please also note that Assam has the second highest Muslim population (in percentage) among all states in India. Chaipau (talk) 15:22, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Also, please note that not all Muslims in Assam eat beef and not all Muslims in Assam avoid pork either. Chaipau (talk) 15:28, 20 October 2022 (UTC)