Talk:Cross burning/Archive 1

Archive 1

Lady of the Lake

I've deleted the sentence reading Prof Andrew Hook, of Glasgow University, claims Scott's The Lady of the Lake as a source [1]. The link is to a web page that claims that Hook claims that the custom came from The Lady of the Lake. The same web page also contradicts Hooks's statement and says that it came via Dixon (who may in turn have gotten it from Scott). Every serious source I've seen says that Simmons got it either from Dixon or indirectly from The Birth of a Nation, which got it from Dixon.--Bcrowell 02:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Erm, but where did Dixon and Simmons get it from? --MacRusgail 20:34, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I could find few texts of it online, but here is one excerpt - Canto III:

"Time rolls his ceaseless course. The race of yore, Who danced our infancy upon their knee, And told our marvelling boyhood legends store Of their strange ventures happed by land or sea,... How, when a mountain chief his bugle blew, Both field and forest, dingle, cliff; and dell, And solitary heath, the signal knew; And fast the faithful clan around him drew. What time the warning note was keenly wound, What time aloft their kindred banner flew, While clamorous war-pipes yelled the gathering sound, And while the Fiery Cross glanced like a meteor, round..."

"...For such Antiquity had taught Was preface meet, ere yet abroad The Cross of Fire should take its road. The shrinking band stood oft aghast At the impatient glance he cast; -- Such glance the mountain eagle threw, As, from the cliffs of Benvenue, She spread her dark sails on the wind, And, high in middle heaven reclined, With her broad shadow on the lake, Silenced the warblers of the brake...

"Dismal and low its accents came, The while he scathed the Cross with flame; And the few words that reached the air, Although the holiest name was there, Had more of blasphemy than prayer. But when he shook above the crowd Its kindled points, he spoke aloud: -- 'Woe to the wretch who fails to rear At this dread sign the ready spear! For, as the flames this symbol sear, His home, the refuge of his fear, A kindred fate shall know; Far o'er its roof the volumed flame Clan-Alpine's vengeance shall proclaim, While maids and matrons on his name Shall call down wretchedness and shame, And infamy and woe.' Then rose the cry of females, shrill As goshawk's whistle on the hill, Denouncing misery and ill, Mingled with childhood's babbling trill Of curses stammered slow; Answering with imprecation dread, 'Sunk be his home in embers red! And cursed be the meanest shed That o'er shall hide the houseless head We doom to want and woe!' A sharp and shrieking echo gave, Coir-Uriskin, thy goblin cave! And the gray pass where birches wave On Beala-nam-bo... The crosslet's points of sparkling wood He quenched among the bubbling blood ... He vanished, and o'er moor and moss Sped forward with the Fiery Cross ... " etc etc Online book

Scott's own note "When a chieftain designed to summon his clan, upon any sudden or important emergency, he slew a goat, and making a cross of any light wood, seared its extremities in the fire, and extinguished them in the blood of the animal. This was called the Fiery Cross, also Crean Tarigh, or the Cross of Shame, because disobedience to what the symbol implied, inferred infamy. It was delivered to a swift and trusty messenger, who ran full speed with it to the next hamlet, where he presented it to the principal person, with a single word, implying the place of rendezvous. He who received the symbol was bound to send it forward, with equal despatch, to the next village; and thus it passed with incredible celerity through all the district which owed allegiance to the chief, and also among his allies and neighbours, if the danger was common to them. At sight of the Fiery Cross, every man, from sixteen years old to sixty, capable of bearing arms, was obliged instantly to repair, in his best arms and accoutrements, to the place of rendezvous. He who failed to appear suffered the extremities of fire and sword, which were emblematically denounced to the disobedient by the bloody and burnt marks upon this warlike signal. During the civil war of 1745-6, the Fiery Cross often made its circuit; and upon one occasion it passed through the whole district of Breadalbane, a tract of thirty-two miles, in three hours. The late Alexander Stewart, Esq., of Invernahyle, described to me his having sent round the Fiery Cross through the district of Appine, during the same commotion. The coast was threatened by a descent from two English trigates, and the flower of the young men were with the army of Prince Charles Edward, then in England; yet the summons was so effectual that even old age and childhood obeyed it; and a force was collected in a few hours, so numerous and so enthusiastic, that all attempt at the intended diversion upon the country of the absent warriors was in prudence abandoned, as desperate."

I'm not disputing that cross burning existed in Scott. It's also possible that Dixon got it directly from Scott, although I haven't seen any evidence of that. But the article shouldn't imply that Simmons got it directly from Scott, when Wade says he got it either from The Birth of a Nation or from Dixon.--Bcrowell 21:43, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I think this is nitpicking. The KKK's use of it originates with Scott, whether Simmons got it directly or indirectly.--MacRusgail 10:25, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Huh? I haven't seen any evidence that Scott was involved at all. It's pure speculation as to whether Dixon got it from Scott. Is there a problem with the current version of the article?--Bcrowell 15:32, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you email Prof. Hook about the claim. :-)

"Is there a problem with the current version of the article?"

In my view, yes. I think mainly because it focusses largely on the KKK, whereas it would be more interesting to have a broader based article discussing more of the use in Scotland, the references in Scott etc. It is hardly the KKK's property... like the cross itself, it's merely been hijacked by them.

Sure, I don't see any problem with expanding the non-Klan parts. But you simply haven't shown any verifiable evidence to tie that Klan's custom to Scott. If Prof. Hook has published something documenting the connection between the Klan and Scott, then you need to do the legwork of locating that publication; otherwise your claim is totally nonverifiable.--Bcrowell 19:20, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Grammar and Spelling

I think that if one intends to be taken seriously, it would help to use a spelling and grammar checker - especially if one's abilities are at the level displayed here.--Achim 00:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Motion Picture Terminology?!

I came here after clicking a link to "cross lighting" on the page Index of motion picture terminology. If there once was a description of a cinematographic lighting technique named "cross lighting", that description seems to have been lost. 85.180.61.70 (talk) 23:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Fiery Cross

Articles have the same subject. SStephens13 (talk • contribs) 17:21, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

No, they do not have the same subject. They should not be merged. --Mlang.Finn (talk) 16:16, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Possible error in section "Legal Position in US"

This section may conflict with the section "Holding" in the article Virginia v. Black — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:468:C80:4390:1487:25FF:AD4D:E4E8 (talk) 18:41, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

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Should have a link to the page about the Luxembourgish custom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buergbrennen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:E320:3CD:8CCF:798E:8CA4:6A65 (talk) 16:49, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

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this article seems to

give a pretty the-klan-hasn't-burned-many-crosses-nor-are-they-most-famously-associated-with-it-in-modern-times version of history. I dunno. I was searching for some info/history on the the KKK practice of cross burning and like- I got none. CrackityKzz 20:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Try Ku Klux Klan regalia and insignia. I have been keen, as a Scot to dissociate the historic practice from the KKK's practice of it. The two are not the same, and there is no reason why Scottish traditional practices should be tarnished by the behaviour of a bunch of American louts and racists. --MacRusgail 17:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

most people in america are just flat out ignorant when it comes to this ritual. they say "oh the Klan burns crosses" as if to say it is a desecration. they themselves say that to them it is a symbol of the light of Jesus Christ calling or showing them the way home. they consider themselves Christians so the liting of a cross is not a desecration. Statesboropow (talk) 17:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Dixon Jr., in his novel 'The Clansman', borrows the idea that the Klan had used fiery crosses from the call to arms of the Scottish Clans. There is no evidence of this practice in the USA that pre-dates his book's publication in 1905.[2] However, nothing happens in a vacuum so giving context to the origins of the cross burning as well as modern uses is needed. Yes, it is a shame that it was taken over by the KKK, but the same can be side of the use of the swastika by the Nazis, and how the Buddhists feel about it. C. W. Gilmore (talk) 19:40, 22 October 2017 (UTC)